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post #271 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

+1 I have no doubt that 8 is better than 7 for tablet use, that's what it is truly meant for. I haven't bought a tablet yet, but my Android smart phone has ICS and I think it would be great to have a tablet running ICS. Now if Android could just get an app store department just for tablets... For the desktop I would seriously consider a Mac if Windows 8 becomes dominant.

Actually, you would want Jelly Bean, not ICS. 4.2 is now out, and adds multiple users for tablets. I just installed late last night as I was falling asleep, and have yet to try it.

Also, I don't know why you say "if Windows 8 becomes dominant." I doubt you'll be able to buy many new computers without it in the very near future. To buy and learn a new version of every app you own to avoid one extra mouse click seems a bit extreme. Learning the Apple system would be much more difficult than learning to click a mouse.
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post #272 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by EAS View Post

When you are thinking about this what type of role or job is this person performing? I'm really curious about your first thought of what a person does on a work computer. I'm serious. I'm a software architect and I'm curious.
I'm worked in a lot of companies that have seas of customer service reps and other task workers. It was quite typical for these workers to have a preconfigured workstation with 1-5 shortcuts on the desktop to allow them to quickly access the applications needed for their role. We've seen the task bar allow for quick links to the apps we access frequently. We've seen the start menu keep frequently used applications in an easy to access place automatically. I'm not really seeing a lot of difference other than adding some updating live links to the apps one needs. From a corporate of work perspective I see some improvements in the UI and what it can offer developers to increase productivity.
If you don't mind me asking, what sort of work are you in or were you in? Again, just curious. I think it would help frame your opinion.
Sure. I'm a software engineer. I've used every OS imaginable in the past 30 years. I typically have at least a dozen windows tiled on my desktop across a couple of displays (impossible in metro). I have about 300 programs installed, and several VMs. I see zero potential in Win 8 for increased productivity. Every task I've attempted takes at least twice the number of keys/clicks to perform. Most take far more than that. Most are so well hidden that a text search is required. I have no interest in going backwards 30 years and typing everything I want to do. Win 8 is so frustrating to use, it makes me physically ill.

I'm perfectly capable of making tons of shortcuts, memorizing dozens of new winkey combos, bypassing metro, installing 3rd party workarounds, hacking the registry, etc., to get my productivity level back, but why should I have to go to all that trouble? A good interface is supposed to be easier, not harder. I'm not a fan of the idiotic ribbon interface in office either. That's also a productivity killer. Every feature is a game of hide and seek. What's wrong with organized lists of options? Lists have worked very well for humanity for thousands of years. Why is it suddenly taboo to have readable lists of objects, properties and functions?

As a software architect, I have a project for you. Take a win 8 computer out on the street and ask the average person to shut it down completely without using the power button. Then do the same experiment with a win 7 machine. I bet you not a single person will be able to figure out the win 8 shutdown sequence, but everyone will figure out the win 7 one. That's just one example of the horrible UI design that pervades every aspect of win 8.
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post #273 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Sonyad View Post

Not true. When you click Programs in Windows Xp or Windows 7 you get a list of your programs. In Windows XP or Windows 7 you go to control panel and you click to uninstall icon to get the what windows 8 calls programs & features.
But let me add. I working on my XP machine right now so I can't confirm whether Win7 throws up a programs & features label somewhere when clicking on control panel, but I think it's obscure enough that I never noticed it.
It was called Programs and Features in Windows 7:
ZvACNl.png

Typing "uninstall" brings it up straight away in Windows 8. Or you can bring up the control panel and navigate to it if that's what you prefer. I don't know why anyone would want to go through those extra steps though.

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Originally Posted by tman247 View Post

It also won't stop MS releasing the usual 'raft' of security updates for 8 on a monthly basis either, which sort of makes a mockery of the 'most secure O/S they've released'. I see the first ones are already out, but it's nothing we're not already used to.
Releasing security updates on a regular basis is exactly how you keep an operating system secure. Windows 8 implements a considerable number of new security features, but they are not user-facing so you shouldn't notice anything different. (which is exactly how it should be)

OS X is years behind Windows from a security standpoint, it's just that OS X is not being targeted like Windows is. (because guess what most businesses are still using?)
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post #274 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

+1 I have no doubt that 8 is better than 7 for tablet use, that's what it is truly meant for. I haven't bought a tablet yet, but my Android smart phone has ICS and I think it would be great to have a tablet running ICS. Now if Android could just get an app store department just for tablets... For the desktop I would seriously consider a Mac if Windows 8 becomes dominant.


I'm not sure how using a Mac is better then simply sticking with Windows 7 or using Windows 8 with one of the 3rd party apps to shut down what you don't like using. That is unless you already wanted a Mac prior to this.


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Originally Posted by Sonyad View Post

Not true. When you click Programs in Windows Xp or Windows 7 you get a list of your programs. In Windows XP or Windows 7 you go to control panel and you click to uninstall icon to get the what windows 8 calls programs & features.
But let me add. I working on my XP machine right now so I can't confirm whether Win7 throws up a programs & features label somewhere when clicking on control panel, but I think it's obscure enough that I never noticed it.


Its not obscure at all unless you have changed the default view in the control panel. In windows 7, the default view has a list of headings in control panel that includes Programs & Features in big letters, not easy to miss. There is a sub heading under it that links you to the program list to uninstall.
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post #275 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Take a win 8 computer out on the street and ask the average person to shut it down completely without using the power button. Then do the same experiment with a win 7 machine. I bet you not a single person will be able to figure out the win 8 shutdown sequence, but everyone will figure out the win 7 one. That's just one example of the horrible UI design that pervades every aspect of win 8.


Considering that you are talking about asking people to using something that's been around a long time in a similar form (i.e. the start menu in 7) vs something that is different (i.e. using the charms ui to shutdown in win 8), its not hard to figure out the outcome.

That's like doing the same thing with a Win 7 pc vs a Mac. Ask people who have used windows for a while to do various tasks on a Mac and they will have trouble.

Of course that doesn't mean something is poorly designed, but it does mean users have something new to learn. I wonder how long it would take a user to remember where to go once it was shown to them.

I suppose if you got people that had never used windows or mac before to try it, that would be a better gauge of how effective the ui is.
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post #276 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by trooper11 View Post

That's like doing the same thing with a Win 7 pc vs a Mac. Ask people who have used windows for a while to do various tasks on a Mac and they will have trouble..

I remember the time, over 20 years ago now, that I first sat down in front of an Apple computer and tried to use a mouse! It seemed very frustrating! I couldn't imagine why someone would want one. biggrin.gif

That said, shutting down Win8 isn't very intuitive. You shouldn't have to resort to Google to figure it out the first time.
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post #277 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

Actually, you would want Jelly Bean, not ICS. 4.2 is now out, and adds multiple users for tablets. I just installed late last night as I was falling asleep, and have yet to try it.
Also, I don't know why you say "if Windows 8 becomes dominant." I doubt you'll be able to buy many new computers without it in the very near future. To buy and learn a new version of every app you own to avoid one extra mouse click seems a bit extreme. Learning the Apple system would be much more difficult than learning to click a mouse.

I am very familiar with OSX, having used it exclusively for three years. I would simply replace 8 with 7 if I was to purchase a computer with an OS already installed, unlikely for me. There is no one I know, including other techies, who would use 8 other than on a tablet or phone. The chatter among people I know is that Windows 8 offers them nothing except demanding that they learn everything all over again. I've used every version (other than server versions) of Windows, except for Vista (when I was using OSX), since its first release.
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post #278 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I am very familiar with OSX, having used it exclusively for three years. I would simply replace 8 with 7 if I was to purchase a computer with an OS already installed, unlikely for me. There is no one I know, including other techies, who would use 8 other than on a tablet or phone. The chatter among people I know is that Windows 8 offers them nothing except demanding that they learn everything all over again. I've used every version (other than server versions) of Windows, except for Vista (when I was using OSX), since its first release.

Or, you know, just pay $5 for Start8.
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post #279 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:35 AM
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Well, since this is an HTPC forum I'll chime in with my verdict after a few days of using Windows 8 and XBMC.
So far, I like it a lot. This is a dedicated HTPC with an AMD A4-3400 CPU, and I really dont use it for anything except XBMC.
It boots even faster than Win 7 (I have an SSD), and the little lag I had with scrolling through my movies
is now gone. (The Netflix integration in Win 8 is also very nice and might entice me to use it more often)

But, I also tried it on my laptop and hated it. The slide outs coming from the sides of the screen everytime I moved my
cursor to the wrong place drives me crazy. I cant believe this doesnt annoy more users???
Having no traditional red 'X' to close an open program is ridiculous...really? Swipe
down with my laptops trackpad? Stupid.
I can go on and on with the complaints but most have already been listed through this thread.

I guess its not a ringing endorsement that Windows 8 works best for me if I really dont have to see or
use it....just there as the backbone for my HTPC is fine.

Revo Ion...XBMC For Windows...Dharma RC2
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post #280 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by trooper11 View Post

I wonder how long it would take a user to remember where to go once it was shown to them.
I've done it several times, and I still can't list all the steps here from memory. Can you?

As for using it on an HTPC, that stinks as well. Maybe XBMC works ok, but WMC still has issues:

- Can't increase tuner limit beyond 4
- Can't increase number of lines in guide
- Bogus drive space warnings
- Difficult to use without a keyboard
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post #281 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

I remember the time, over 20 years ago now, that I first sat down in front of an Apple computer and tried to use a mouse! It seemed very frustrating! I couldn't imagine why someone would want one. biggrin.gif
That said, shutting down Win8 isn't very intuitive. You shouldn't have to resort to Google to figure it out the first time.
Most people don't use the software option to shut down their computer. In fact, I can't think of many reasons why someone would do that, rather than just hitting the power button - that's how you turn off every other device on the planet. How is pressing the power button not intuitive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

There is no one I know, including other techies, who would use 8 other than on a tablet or phone. The chatter among people I know is that Windows 8 offers them nothing except demanding that they learn everything all over again.
They don't sound much like "techies" at all if they can't figure out how to use the new start screen within five minutes, or install a start menu replacement if they can't figure it out. There's very little in Windows 8 that needs to be "relearned". Seems to me like they're the same as most of the people complaining about Windows 8 - they haven't actually tried it.
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Originally Posted by dan4081 View Post

But, I also tried it on my laptop and hated it. The slide outs coming from the sides of the screen everytime I moved my
cursor to the wrong place drives me crazy. I cant believe this doesnt annoy more users???
This utility will selectively disable the hot-corners. I use Start8 as a start screen replacement, which also has the option to disable these.

With a modern multitouch tablet trackpad, you don't actually need the hot-corners, you can just swipe in from the side to show the charms menu etc, the same as you would do on a tablet.
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Originally Posted by dan4081 View Post

Having no traditional red 'X' to close an open program is ridiculous...really? Swipe
down with my laptops trackpad? Stupid.
Hit the Windows key. There, you've closed the app. Apps are suspended and do not run in the background.
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

I've done it several times, and I still can't list all the steps here from memory. Can you?
  1. Press the power button on the computer.
  2. Win+i > Power
  3. Alt+F4
  4. Charms Menu > Settings > Power
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post #282 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

The chatter among people I know is that Windows 8 offers them nothing except demanding that they learn everything all over again.

this is the bull that the anti-win8 people push out there without any basis or knowledge of the actual situation. everything works nearly the same. the only difference is how it looks. the start button is still in the same place (lower left corner). it's just invisible until you hover the mouse cursor over it. in fact, a lot of UI things are hidden until you right-click (and I know people remember how to right-click) or go to one of 4 corners (and I know people can count up to 4). yes, the very first time you see the start screen, you can be lost. but once you remember to either right-click or go to one of the 4 corners,, things start to come naturally.

The hardest thing was figuring out how to exit an app without the eXit button. The motion now (drag the app to the bottom of the screen) reminds me of the old Apple days where to eject a disc, you dragged it to the trash can! People made fun of that for the longest time.

none of the desktop apps behave any differently in win8.

the main difference is you have another type of application with the metro apps.

the start screen behaves the same as the start menu except for the recent documents. people who like to dabble with settings (I'm one of them) do not like how they're nestled away. but you can show all administrative tools automatically in your start screen via a settings toggle. and you have your quick access menu that's only a right-click away. and once you back to the control panel, they're all there just like before, in the exact same locations, just like before.
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post #283 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

The hardest thing was figuring out how to exit an app without the eXit button. The motion now (drag the app to the bottom of the screen) reminds me of the old Apple days where to eject a disc, you dragged it to the trash can!

Which is a pain in the rear if you have a laptop with a touchpad.... Most touchpads are either too small or scroll too slowly to get the mouse cursor from the top of the screen to the bottom in one swipe. If you double-tap to drag, you run out of space before the application you're trying to close reaches the bottom of the screen. You either need two hands (one to hold the button, the other to drag) or end up doing some interesting finger-yoga if you try to close an app with one hand.

This works just fine on a tablet when you can easily swipe bezel to bezel, and since Metro/Start was designed for tablets I have no issue with this method _on a tablet_. Just leave it off my laptop please.


As I mentioned before, I'm a bit old school with my desktop setup. I still use QuickLaunch and I can't stand pinned applicatios on my taskbar. QuickLaunch still remains useful for applications that don't need window management - I have a couple of internet radio shortcuts there, the "snipping tool", a shortcut for notepad, my sound card manager application so I can change between speakers and headphones easily and a shortcut for iTunes.

This is the workflow that I'm comfortable with and I think it's important for PCs to work the way the user wants them to, not the other way around.
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post #284 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It was called Programs and Features in Windows 7:
ZvACNl.png
Typing "uninstall" brings it up straight away in Windows 8. Or you can bring up the control panel and navigate to it if that's what you prefer. I don't know why anyone would want to go through those extra steps though.
Releasing security updates on a regular basis is exactly how you keep an operating system secure. Windows 8 implements a considerable number of new security features, but they are not user-facing so you shouldn't notice anything different. (which is exactly how it should be)
OS X is years behind Windows from a security standpoint, it's just that OS X is not being targeted like Windows is. (because guess what most businesses are still using?)

I'll give it to you. Programs & Features is sitting up there in the title bar where I didn't notice it. However on your way to the control panel, did you every actively select Programs & Features? I'm asking because I have been using the control panel for a number of Windows versions, and I'm wondering why anyone would assume "Programs & Features" would be a recognizable name just because it's thrown on the title bar and the steps to control panel don't highlight that name?
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post #285 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Most people don't use the software option to shut down their computer. In fact, I can't think of many reasons why someone would do that, rather than just hitting the power button - that's how you turn off every other device on the planet. How is pressing the power button not intuitive?

That would be interesting to know--the percentage of people who use the power button rather than a menu item. I'll always go with a soft button over a hardware button, because soft buttons never wear out. So for example, I'll turn off my TV and receiver with a remote rather than their power buttons. In fact, when first trying to figure out how to turn off Win8, it didn't even occur to me to use the power button! redface.gif

Breaking habits isn't easy for me. For example years ago I had a BT Microsoft keyboard that wouldn't install on the computer I wanted to use it on. Someone had to suggest to me using Microsoft support. That didn't occur to me because typically I can figure things out better/faster myself than calling a support line.
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post #286 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

this is the bull that the anti-win8 people push out there without any basis or knowledge of the actual situation..

Yep, and Microsoft is a huge target for that sort of thing. Pretty soon there will be press reports and Microsoft will have another Vista problem, regardless of the merits.
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post #287 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Sonyad View Post

I'll give it to you. Programs & Features is sitting up there in the title bar where I didn't notice it. However on your way to the control panel, did you every actively select Programs & Features? I'm asking because I have been using the control panel for a number of Windows versions, and I'm wondering why anyone would assume "Programs & Features" would be a recognizable name just because it's thrown on the title bar and the steps to control panel don't highlight that name?

I don't know when the change occurred (Vista?) but before it used to be called "Add/Remove Programs." When going to Control Panel I'll still sometimes look in the A's for the proper item to remove a program.
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post #288 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Most people don't use the software option to shut down their computer. In fact, I can't think of many reasons why someone would do that, rather than just hitting the power button - that's how you turn off every other device on the planet. How is pressing the power button not intuitive?
  1. Press the power button on the computer.
  2. Win+i > Power
  3. Alt+F4
  4. Charms Menu > Settings > Power

Of course I use the power button, but that's for sleep, not shutdown. Been doing that for years. Doesn't belong in this discussion.

I'd like to see you get grandma to remember Win+i > Power. Win + i is so intuitive rolleyes.gif

Alt+F4 has worked forever, doesn't belong in this discussion

What makes the most sense is to hover the mouse in the corner of the screen to expose a hidden popup named by someone on a bad acid trip, then go into settings. Utterly ridiculous. And MS expects me to pay money for this vast increase in productivity.
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post #289 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Of course I use the power button, but that's for sleep, not shutdown. Been doing that for years. Doesn't belong in this discussion.
And because you've been doing that for years, you may have forgotten that it's a selectable option; you can choose between Sleep, Shutdown, Hibernate or Do Nothing for the power button - same for Windows 8 as in Windows 7.
And in passing, I'll just put in my vote for liking Windows 8 on my desktop PC. For me, it works perfectly well with a mouse and keyboard. I wouldn't dream of going back to Windows 7.

Geoff Coupe
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post #290 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

Which is a pain in the rear if you have a laptop with a touchpad.... Most touchpads are either too small or scroll too slowly to get the mouse cursor from the top of the screen to the bottom in one swipe.
Going back to the start screen or switching to another app suspends it. You can also close apps from the task switcher by moving the mouse cursor along the left-hand side (from either corner) or by hitting Alt+F4 like closing a standard Windows application.

There's really no need to forcibly quit an app though.
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Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

This works just fine on a tablet when you can easily swipe bezel to bezel, and since Metro/Start was designed for tablets I have no issue with this method _on a tablet_. Just leave it off my laptop please.
Again, this "problem" only applies to Metro apps, yet you say that you don't want to use Metro apps.

If you aren't using Metro apps, it isn't a problem.

While you need to install a Start Screen replacement if you don't want to use that, there is nothing that makes you use Metro apps on the system, and they can all be uninstalled. (just right-click their tiles)
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Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

This is the workflow that I'm comfortable with and I think it's important for PCs to work the way the user wants them to, not the other way around.
If you don't want to change your workflow at all, don't change your operating system. That's how computers have always been. It's the same whether you're on Windows or OS X. Things don't just stand still.

I don't think there's anything you've described, that can't be done in Windows 8 though.
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Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

Yep, and Microsoft is a huge target for that sort of thing. Pretty soon there will be press reports and Microsoft will have another Vista problem, regardless of the merits.
Vista sold over 140 million units in its first year, and reached 180 million units in its first 18 months. I don't think it was really the "problem" for Microsoft that some people would have you believe.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2008/07/three-months-later-180-million-vista-licenses-sold-in-total/
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Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

I don't know when the change occurred (Vista?) but before it used to be called "Add/Remove Programs." When going to Control Panel I'll still sometimes look in the A's for the proper item to remove a program.
It was "Programs and Features" in Vista as well. XP was the last time it was called "Add/Remove Programs"

You can still type "add", "remove", "programs" etc. and it will show up on the start screen though.

2kHFyl.png

Rather than hunting around for things, tell your computer what you want and let it do the work for you. I would have just typed "uninstall" personally.
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Of course I use the power button, but that's for sleep, not shutdown. Been doing that for years. Doesn't belong in this discussion.
You can have the power button sleep, hibernate, or shut down the system. I've just checked, and by default it was set to hibernate my system, rather than shutdown. (though that still kills power to the system just like shutdown would)
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

I'd like to see you get grandma to remember Win+i > Power. Win + i is so intuitive rolleyes.gif
In this hypothetical scenario, why would "grandma" do anything other than press the power button on the computer to turn it on/off, like every other device she has ever owned?

I really don't see why pressing the power button is not the most intuitive thing to do on a computer to turn it on/off, and "shutdown" really doesn't make a lot of sense in 2012. People are used to devices waking/sleeping instantly when they press the power button on their phones etc and not having the device forget everything they were doing on it last. Why wouldn't you want your computer to do the same? This isn't Win9x where the system would gradually slow to a crawl until you finally shut it down or rebooted it.
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What makes the most sense is to hover the mouse in the corner of the screen to expose a hidden popup named by someone on a bad acid trip, then go into settings.
I agree that using the charms menu to shut down is not intuitive at all with a mouse. With a multitouch trackpad or tablet, it does work well though.
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I'll give it to you. Programs & Features is sitting up there in the title bar where I didn't notice it. However on your way to the control panel, did you every actively select Programs & Features? I'm asking because I have been using the control panel for a number of Windows versions, and I'm wondering why anyone would assume "Programs & Features" would be a recognizable name just because it's thrown on the title bar and the steps to control panel don't highlight that name?
I always used the "small icons" control panel in 7, as the "category" view hid too many options for my liking. There, it was called "Programs and Features".

nSovF.png

The standard view is relatively unchanged in Windows 8 though:
Gutxz.png
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That would be interesting to know--the percentage of people who use the power button rather than a menu item. I'll always go with a soft button over a hardware button, because soft buttons never wear out. So for example, I'll turn off my TV and receiver with a remote rather than their power buttons. In fact, when first trying to figure out how to turn off Win8, it didn't even occur to me to use the power button! redface.gif
Get used to hitting Win+i then, I guess. I think that's probably the quickest way to shut down without creating a custom shortcut (I don't like that as it seems like it would be easy to hit) or installing a start screen replacement, assuming that your keyboard doesn't have a power/sleep button on it.

I've always either hit the button on the tower if I want to turn it off right away, or used the shutdown command from the run menu (Win + R) if I wanted a delayed shut down. While some programs offer the option to shut down when their task is completed, most do not.
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And in passing, I'll just put in my vote for liking Windows 8 on my desktop PC. For me, it works perfectly well with a mouse and keyboard. I wouldn't dream of going back to Windows 7.
I agree. The more I am using Windows 8, the more I am finding lots of little tweaks/changes to the OS that are improved, which I haven't seen widely documented. I guess people are having more fun finding fault with the Start Screen than actually using it. The Start Screen really is just one tiny part of a great OS.
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post #291 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 11:51 AM
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And because you've been doing that for years, you may have forgotten that it's a selectable option; you can choose between Sleep, Shutdown, Hibernate or Do Nothing for the power button - same for Windows 8 as in Windows 7.
And in passing, I'll just put in my vote for liking Windows 8 on my desktop PC. For me, it works perfectly well with a mouse and keyboard. I wouldn't dream of going back to Windows 7.
Wow, I had no idea rolleyes.gif Imagine for a moment you leave the power button configured for sleep and you go temporarily insane and want to completely shut down your computer. Or, the converse, you have your power button configured for shutdown and want to put the computer to sleep. Either case is 2 clicks or one button press in Win 7, or some bizarre sequence in Win 8. It's just one small example of how screwed up Win 8 is.

And, Chronoptimist, this takes the cake...


Great use of space, easy to read from 10' and shows all my options which I can easily choose by touch or a mouse. Brilliant design and very minimalist. Why not go all the way and just a have a completely blank screen with a text search box and I wouldn't need a mouse at all. Wait a minute, that's essentially DOS. Maybe the texting generation has caused some sort of time warp, so now the efficient way to operate a pc is to type commands and hope you guess right rather than point and click, and typing with your thumbs is more efficient than speaking.

I can imagine the design meetings now. "Ok everybody, I want you to go through every window with a fine tooth comb and remove as much as you possibly can until each screen is utterly useless, because the best interface for a modern touch screen device is text entry".

If you guys like it, that's great. Knock yourselves out. But for me, it's totally unacceptable.
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post #292 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 12:39 PM
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Vista sold over 140 million units in its first year, and reached 180 million units in its first 18 months. I don't think it was really the "problem" for Microsoft that some people would have you believe.

Oddly, I never had a problem with Vista until within the past year on my one computer that still ran Vista. It stopped recognizing some of my USB devices at times (mainly after a boot), and none of the Vista fixes fixed it. Win8 seems to have fixed that problem, but I have noted that it doesn't always recognize the one trackball quickly on boot, but it will get there in the first minute.
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My computer ran better with Vista than it does now with Windows 7.

I'm constantly having problems with it not detecting my mouse on resume from sleep mode and it takes forever to get the network card back up and connected.
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post #294 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 01:46 PM
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Regarding powering off and easy access. It's pretty easy to create and pin a power down tile to the start page. If you have an older person that struggles with using the computer and likes things simple I think it would make a lot of sense to just make a tile and put it right in front of them. Does it have to be a tile for everyone...I don't think so...

Rather than type out how to do that...

http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57392988-285/how-to-create-a-shutdown-and-reboot-tile-in-windows-8/
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post #295 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 01:57 PM
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Sure. I'm a software engineer. I've used every OS imaginable in the past 30 years. I typically have at least a dozen windows tiled on my desktop across a couple of displays (impossible in metro). I have about 300 programs installed, and several VMs. I see zero potential in Win 8 for increased productivity. Every task I've attempted takes at least twice the number of keys/clicks to perform. Most take far more than that. Most are so well hidden that a text search is required. I have no interest in going backwards 30 years and typing everything I want to do. Win 8 is so frustrating to use, it makes me physically ill.
I'm perfectly capable of making tons of shortcuts, memorizing dozens of new winkey combos, bypassing metro, installing 3rd party workarounds, hacking the registry, etc., to get my productivity level back, but why should I have to go to all that trouble? A good interface is supposed to be easier, not harder. I'm not a fan of the idiotic ribbon interface in office either. That's also a productivity killer. Every feature is a game of hide and seek. What's wrong with organized lists of options? Lists have worked very well for humanity for thousands of years. Why is it suddenly taboo to have readable lists of objects, properties and functions?
As a software architect, I have a project for you. Take a win 8 computer out on the street and ask the average person to shut it down completely without using the power button. Then do the same experiment with a win 7 machine. I bet you not a single person will be able to figure out the win 8 shutdown sequence, but everyone will figure out the win 7 one. That's just one example of the horrible UI design that pervades every aspect of win 8.

Thanks. I realize you know you sound bitter and a bit curmudgeon. I respect that. I often feel this way myself.

What type of software do you develop?

I assume you are using most of these dozen programs for your work and tasks. Obviously, Windows 8 doesn't really impact how those programs work for you and are probably the same on 8 as previous versions of windows.

Can you list 3 tasks you perform on 8 that you would also perform on 7 on a regular basis and quantify the time it takes you for the task on both systems?

Lets keep this to W8 and not discuss Office UI components, if you don't mind.

I like that you are emotional about your software usage and that using software can make you physically ill. This tells me you care deeply about the technology and have well formed opinions. Honest. That you are also a software engineer makes your opinion a professional one.

Also, why aren't you personally able to have the monitor and window layout you have used on 7 on 8? That's not obvious to me. I'm deeply interested in just how much your world is really changed on 8 in a real world sense.
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post #296 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 02:04 PM
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Of course all we'll have to do is wait and see. Windows 8 is already struggling for acceptance and MS's desperation is obvious. I'm guessing it'll either be the last windows or MS will change course.
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I appreciate the advice and the link. But I already know how to make a shutdown shortcut. It's exactly the same as it was in Win 7. You're still missing the point, which is I shouldn't have to make a shortcut in the first place. This is one of many, many things that should be super easy to do without any effort at all, no shortcuts, no text searches, no research, no new hotkey combos, no programming, no charms, no incantations. As I said before, with enough work, of course I can do anything in Win 8 that I could do in Win 7. But it should be at least as effortless as it was in Win 7. The moment you post a workaround, you've proven that it isn't, which is precisely my point.

I'll go back to my car analogy. Win 8 is like a nice new fast car with no steering wheel (start menu) and no ignition switch. Instead it has a switch that can either idle or turn off the car, but not both. If I have my switch set up to make the car idle, then to shut off the car I have to get out, open the hood and disconnect the battery. You tell me to just wire in a new switch. That's the desktop shortcut, which works fine. But I didn't have to do that in my old Win 7 car where I could easily shut down or idle. And instead of pressing the gas pedal, I have to type the word GO. It sounds like a really stupid car design doesn't it.
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post #298 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 02:14 PM
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Windows 8 is already struggling for acceptance and MS's desperation is obvious.

How is that?
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post #299 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 02:22 PM
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I appreciate the advice and the link. But I already know how to make a shutdown shortcut. It's exactly the same as it was in Win 7. You're still missing the point, which is I shouldn't have to make a shortcut in the first place. This is one of many, many things that should be super easy to do without any effort at all, no shortcuts, no text searches, no research, no new hotkey combos, no programming, no charms, no incantations. As I said before, with enough work, of course I can do anything in Win 8 that I could do in Win 7. But it should be at least as effortless as it was in Win 7. The moment you post a workaround, you've proven that it isn't, which is precisely my point.
I'll go back to my car analogy. Win 8 is like a nice new fast car with no steering wheel (start menu) and no ignition switch. Instead it has a switch that can either idle or turn off the car, but not both. If I have my switch set up to make the car idle, then to shut off the car I have to get out, open the hood and disconnect the battery. You tell me to just wire in a new switch. That's the desktop shortcut, which works fine. But I didn't have to do that in my old Win 7 car where I could easily shut down or idle. And instead of pressing the gas pedal, I have to type the word GO. It sounds like a really stupid car design doesn't it.

I think perhaps you aren't embracing the reason for the way things look and accepting that you can customize things to suit you best. You just don't want to do it and I hear and understand these fits of change. However, if you just do it and embrace that you can make things configured how you want them then you might warm up to things.

I'm in no way saying you are wrong or your opinion doesn't matter. I understand completely and am empathetic.

You keep referring to the amount of work its going to take to get things the way you want them. I'm still very very curious about quantifying those things and making them real and actionable. You understand because you are a software engineer. Requirements and specs need to be specific.

I reject your car analogy. it's close minded, reductionist and quite a bit unfair... and I think you know that.
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post #300 of 622 Old 11-14-2012, 02:32 PM
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Thanks. I realize you know you sound bitter and a bit curmudgeon. I respect that. I often feel this way myself.
What type of software do you develop?
I assume you are using most of these dozen programs for your work and tasks. Obviously, Windows 8 doesn't really impact how those programs work for you and are probably the same on 8 as previous versions of windows.
Can you list 3 tasks you perform on 8 that you would also perform on 7 on a regular basis and quantify the time it takes you for the task on both systems?
Lets keep this to W8 and not discuss Office UI components, if you don't mind.
I like that you are emotional about your software usage and that using software can make you physically ill. This tells me you care deeply about the technology and have well formed opinions. Honest. That you are also a software engineer makes your opinion a professional one.
Also, why aren't you personally able to have the monitor and window layout you have used on 7 on 8? That's not obvious to me. I'm deeply interested in just how much your world is really changed on 8 in a real world sense.
Please tell me how to have my dozen apps on the screen simultaneously in Metro.

I just gave you the prime example of a full shutdown. Any other task I give you, you will simply tell me to make a shortcut or do a text search, which completely misses the point. I have no desire to operate my computer by text searches. That went out in the 80s. Here's another simple example. In Win 7, to get to the event viewer, it's 2 clicks and a few mouse moves, maybe 4 seconds. I imagine in Win 8 there is some typing involved an a winkey combo I haven't memorized. And simply accessing the desktop in the first place is a time waster. I should be able to boot directly to it, bypassing Metro entirely, no extra clicks, 3rd party apps or registry hacks.

As far as how much the world has changed for me, Win 8 hasn't changed it one bit because I refuse to use it in it's current state. It's only cost me time arguing about it on message boards with people who insist on polishing this turd.
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