Windows 8 - my verdict. - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Gentlemen, semantics about a "button" aside.... smile.gif I think we can all somewhat agree that while Windows 8 has certainly improved some of the underpinnings and provides a "faster" Windows, the thorn in the side is Metro for DESKTOP usage. All these arguments about installing a minor 3rd party tool (for $5), while certainly an option, are a moot point. This is a new "OS" we're talking about and that too from Microsoft, not some fly by night company. or a tangential Android build. This OS is supposed to replace the humungous number of copies of Windows out there, and I just don't see that happening.
All these arguments that things have been moved around, or made more difficult are very crucial points. While there are ways to get around the hiccups, you have to understand, not everybody is as technically savvy as the typical AVS user. smile.gif The "normal" users are going to scream in frustration with Windows 8. Now, if they had made Metro optional, and generally left most options where they are supposed to be, I'd be a bit more supportive, but they didn't. Big mistake on Microsoft's part.
We can say it's stupid or brilliant, but only time will tell. It most certainly seems like Microsoft scrambling to enter the tablet space and in the process, killing their cash cow, which is the desktop users.
Be careful Mr Balmer, be careful, don't alienate your biggest user base.
Would you rather they had just left out the ability to run Metro apps on the desktop, and made Windows 8 an "incremental" release, like Apple does with OS X? (or really, like Windows 7 was compared to Vista)

Other than the Start Screen, anything else "Metro" in the OS is entirely optional without needing any modifications, and there are free tools that bring back the old Start Menu if you prefer that. (or you can pay $3-5 if you don't want to spend any time configuring things with Start8/Start is Back)

Maybe Microsoft should have made the Metro Start Screen optional in this version, and removed the Start Menu in Windows 9 instead, as that probably wouldn't have been such a "scary" proposition for people that are set in their ways, but then you have a far more fragmented experience.

And really, the Metro start screen is barely any different from Apple's Launchpad, which is basically the iOS home screen on the desktop - but without the ability to run iOS apps, and it doesn't boot into that by default rather than showing you the desktop. It should also be noted that OS X never had any equivalent to the Start Menu, and moved to using Search as the preferred way of launching applications a long time ago. (OS X Tiger launched in April 2005) I think the Start Screen is far more successful on the desktop than Launchpad is.

If I was tied into the Microsoft ecosystem of phones and tablet devices, being able to run those apps on my computer as well is a huge advantage, even if the experience is not identical to using desktop applications.

I hate that with Apple I often have to buy three separate apps to get the phone, tablet and desktop versions. Often that ends up costing in the region of $25-30, and there are a number of desktop apps that are really no better than the tablet one, despite a significant price hike. When you put them into fullscreen mode - which Apple has been pushing heavily for the last few years - they are no different from the tablet version. If I were able to buy one RSS reader for $3 that ran on my phone, tablet and desktop for example, that would be a huge improvement. Or maybe I don't use the desktop version of an app enough to warrant spending $10-20 on it compared to a $3 tablet app, if it's sufficient.

The problem is that I'm locked into iOS for my mobile devices (nothing else offers the breadth of software) and Apple is distancing themselves from Windows again. (Safari appears to be dead, which basically killed bookmark syncing for me)
Vista sold 20M copies in its first month, and Windows 7 sold double that. If you look at that data, I bet projections for Windows 8 were stupidly high.
Combine that with all the FUD surrounding Windows 8, that the Surface pales in comparison to the iPad (the only interesting thing about it is the kick-stand, which I wish my iPad had) and the fact that we are past the point where computers need upgraded on a regular basis (any computer bought in the last 5 years is fast enough to do anything the average user wants) means it's hardly surprising news.

I know a lot of people that upgraded their systems when Windows 7 came around, but now with Windows 8 actually running faster and being more efficient than Windows 7 was, those people have absolutely no need to upgrade their system again, and they're not the kind of people that are likely to reinstall or upgrade their OS. Though if Microsoft had priced the upgrade at $20 like Apple does with OS X, or if $15 was the standard upgrade price rather than the "I just bought a PC with Windows 7" price, I'm sure they would be running 8 already.
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Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

This article is called "10 Great Windows 8 [Metro] Apps." It should be called "The Pathetic Selection of Metro Apps."
http://www.techweb.com/news/240142227/10-great-windows-8-apps.html
I really don't know why people bother to keep posting list "articles" in here. Those things are basically linkbait, and are used to drive up page views for little-to-no effort. You won't hear any argument from me about the poor selection of Metro apps available though. Don't forget that Apple has a four year advantage over Microsoft in this area though. iOS had a very limited selection to begin with, and I skipped the first generation iPad entirely because there wasn't anything worthwhile on it for basically its first year. Even then, I would say it was only about halfway through the iPad 2's life cycle that things started to get really good as far as app selection goes.
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post #362 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I really don't know why people bother to keep posting list "articles" in here. Those things are basically linkbait, and are used to drive up page views for little-to-no effort.

I don't usually even read those articles, in part because you have to click 10 different links to read the entire article, but I was curious if there were some Metro apps I was missing.
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post #363 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Would you rather they had just left out the ability to run Metro apps on the desktop, and made Windows 8 an "incremental" release, like Apple does with OS X? (or really, like Windows 7 was compared to Vista)
The problem isn't Metro per se. It's the fact that the majority of "Windows" users, use it on a desktop. And on a desktop, I'll venture that Metro apps are entirely useless. Yup, completely useless. And they forced Metro on the desktop users. Major bone of contention. Now, that would still have been tolerable, assuming they kept the usual and typical functions of Windows, where they are, instead of splicing them into Metro. Seriously...the "shutdown" action is so freaking obscure in Windows 8, that it is laughable. Does Microsoft realize how much people use that on a desktop??

If they had at least kept these kinds of actions in their usual places, I think there would have been a bit less backlash.
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Other than the Start Screen, anything else "Metro" in the OS is entirely optional without needing any modifications,
No it's not. Read above.
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and there are free tools that bring back the old Start Menu if you prefer that. (or you can pay $3-5 if you don't want to spend any time configuring things with Start8/Start is Back)
I don't trust some 19 yr old kid writing code in his garage (not that that's the case, but you get my point. Who knows what kind of regression testing is done on these "utilities"?) for my business (and personal) software. For something as important as the freaking Start menu, I want super optimized, super stable, super tested code, direct from Microsoft. This is not negotiable.
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Maybe Microsoft should have made the Metro Start Screen optional in this version,
You're absolutely right sir.
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and removed the Start Menu in Windows 9 instead, as that probably wouldn't have been such a "scary" proposition for people that are set in their ways, but then you have a far more fragmented experience.
For desktop usage, it will always be debatable, if this kind of move makes sense, but time will tell. If they wanted "progress", I'd much rather have the option of better voice recognition and just speaking the program/action I want launched... smile.gif
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And really, the Metro start screen is barely any different from Apple's Launchpad, which is basically the iOS home screen on the desktop - but without the ability to run iOS apps, and it doesn't boot into that by default rather than showing you the desktop. It should also be noted that OS X never had any equivalent to the Start Menu, and moved to using Search as the preferred way of launching applications a long time ago. (OS X Tiger launched in April 2005) I think the Start Screen is far more successful on the desktop than Launchpad is.
If I was tied into the Microsoft ecosystem of phones and tablet devices, being able to run those apps on my computer as well is a huge advantage, even if the experience is not identical to using desktop applications.
My personal view is that there is no comparison between OSX/iOS and Windows. Two different platforms/ideologies and two different user bases with different expectations.
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I hate that with Apple I often have to buy three separate apps to get the phone, tablet and desktop versions. Often that ends up costing in the region of $25-30, and there are a number of desktop apps that are really no better than the tablet one, despite a significant price hike. When you put them into fullscreen mode - which Apple has been pushing heavily for the last few years - they are no different from the tablet version. If I were able to buy one RSS reader for $3 that ran on my phone, tablet and desktop for example, that would be a huge improvement. Or maybe I don't use the desktop version of an app enough to warrant spending $10-20 on it compared to a $3 tablet app, if it's sufficient.
Now, you see the genius behind Apple's marketing and success in the last few years?smile.gif They nickle and dime you to death.
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The problem is that I'm locked into iOS for my mobile devices (nothing else offers the breadth of software) and Apple is distancing themselves from Windows again. (Safari appears to be dead, which basically killed bookmark syncing for me)
Bingo. And you'll keep paying Apple the $1, $5 here and there... smile.gif
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Vista sold 20M copies in its first month, and Windows 7 sold double that. If you look at that data, I bet projections for Windows 8 were stupidly high.
Combine that with all the FUD surrounding Windows 8, that the Surface pales in comparison to the iPad (the only interesting thing about it is the kick-stand, which I wish my iPad had) and the fact that we are past the point where computers need upgraded on a regular basis (any computer bought in the last 5 years is fast enough to do anything the average user wants) means it's hardly surprising news.
No disagreement there, but it is still a product release from Microsoft, and (according to them) one of the biggest ones. Expectations were and are rather high.
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I know a lot of people that upgraded their systems when Windows 7 came around, but now with Windows 8 actually running faster and being more efficient than Windows 7 was, those people have absolutely no need to upgrade their system again, and they're not the kind of people that are likely to reinstall or upgrade their OS.
My view is that those gains are "nice to have" but certainly not critical. I have no compelling reason to upgrade my home/business/customers to Windows 8.
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Though if Microsoft had priced the upgrade at $20 like Apple does with OS X, or if $15 was the standard upgrade price rather than the "I just bought a PC with Windows 7" price, I'm sure they would be running 8 already.
uhhh....Windows is the Cash Cow... smile.gif If they start dropping the price on that, Microsoft is screwed.
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post #364 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 09:25 AM
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Windows is not the highest performing Cash Cow for Microsoft: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/windows-drops-to-no-3-cash-cow-status-in-microsoft-latest-quarter/11696

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post #365 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

The problem isn't Metro per se. It's the fact that the majority of "Windows" users, use it on a desktop. And on a desktop, I'll venture that Metro apps are entirely useless. Yup, completely useless. And they forced Metro on the desktop users. Major bone of contention. Now, that would still have been tolerable, assuming they kept the usual and typical functions of Windows, where they are, instead of splicing them into Metro.
The Start Screen works fine for most users, it's mostly "power users" that complain about the lack of the Start Menu, and mainly because it's not what they are used to, rather than it necessarily being bad.
Metro apps are entirely optional.
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Seriously...the "shutdown" action is so freaking obscure in Windows 8, that it is laughable. Does Microsoft realize how much people use that on a desktop??
If they had at least kept these kinds of actions in their usual places, I think there would have been a bit less backlash.
I would bet that Microsoft has far better data on this than any anecdotal evidence you might find posted on online blogs.

For example, Start Menu usage in Windows 7 compared to Windows Vista:
1323_menu-table_6412calrqz.png

Those are significant numbers.

Start Menu usage in Windows 7 compared to pinning apps on the taskbar:
7624_fig-4---pinned-axnoz5.png

I don't think removing the Start Menu and moving around the software shutdown function are decisions that they would have made lightly.

I would be willing to bet that the majority of Windows users now either sleep their machine, or hit the power button on the tower itself to turn it off. (or sleep/hibernate it) Really, "shut down" in a largely redundant feature to have in 2012.
As I've continually said in here, what consumer device on the planet, other than a computer, uses an entirely different method for switching it off, than switching it on? It has been more than 15 years at this point since the power button on a computer actually killed the power immediately and resulted in a "bad shutdown".
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

No it's not. Read above.
Sorry, I must be missing something. What part of Metro, other than the Start Screen, is not optional?
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

I don't trust some 19 yr old kid writing code in his garage (not that that's the case, but you get my point. Who knows what kind of regression testing is done on these "utilities"?) for my business (and personal) software. For something as important as the freaking Start menu, I want super optimized, super stable, super tested code, direct from Microsoft. This is not negotiable.
And this is why Stardock's Start8 is my main recommendation. Yes, it costs $5. But Stardock has been in the business of building and supporting this sort of utility for over a decade now, so it's no wonder that it is (seemingly) the most polished of these tools. "Start is Back" would be my other recommendation, because it actually brings back the "native" Start Menu rather than creating a copy of the Start menu. (Start8 is really just a program that looks and functions like the Start Menu, but is not the Start Menu)
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

For desktop usage, it will always be debatable, if this kind of move makes sense, but time will tell. If they wanted "progress", I'd much rather have the option of better voice recognition and just speaking the program/action I want launched... smile.gif
Windows 8 has built in speech recognition if you want that.
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

My personal view is that there is no comparison between OSX/iOS and Windows. Two different platforms/ideologies and two different user bases with different expectations.
The reason I bring it up, is because it shows that it is not just Microsoft that is headed in this direction, Apple has made a lot of similar moves with the direction that their desktop OS is headed in, they're just a few steps behind Microsoft at this point in integrating the two platforms.
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

No disagreement there, but it is still a product release from Microsoft, and (according to them) one of the biggest ones. Expectations were and are rather high.
I'll wait until we hear information from Microsoft about this rather than "inside sources" posted on a blog. So far all we know is that it sold 4M copies in the first couple of days. Maybe it has "only" sold 30M copies by now, and they were expecting 60M sales based on 20M Vista sales and 40M Windows 7 sales in their first months.

"Disappointing" sales numbers are not necessarily bad sales numbers.
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

My view is that those gains are "nice to have" but certainly not critical. I have no compelling reason to upgrade my home/business/customers to Windows 8.
The security features alone should be enough to warrant an upgrade for business customers. But the same could be said about any OS upgrade. Windows 8 is certainly a bigger upgrade than Windows 7 was over Vista.
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Originally Posted by gcoupe View Post

Windows is not the highest performing Cash Cow for Microsoft: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/windows-drops-to-no-3-cash-cow-status-in-microsoft-latest-quarter/11696
Thank you. This illustrates exactly the problem with trusting anecdotal evidence/opinions on forums/blogs over actual data.
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post #366 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

I believe you just defined a desktop shortcut. It's a friggin' icon you click on to execute a program, which in this case is the Start Menu.

to continue the silliness. a desktop shortcut requires a double-click. so it's not even close to being a button. the windows 8 start button has a defined location. it will always be in the lower lefthand corner of any of your displays. a desktop shortcut has no specific location. it's where you put it. what separates the windows 8 start button from something like a menu item is the same. a menu item is based on the location and size of your application window. it moves around with your window.
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post #367 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

a menu item is based on the location and size of your application window. it moves around with your window.
This is probably the biggest thing I miss now that I'm using Windows again rather than OS X as my main OS. Having a single menu bar that runs across the top of the screen is far superior to having individual menus for each window.

It makes applications look much better, and is considerably better from a usability standpoint.
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post #368 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by gcoupe View Post

Windows is not the highest performing Cash Cow for Microsoft: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/windows-drops-to-no-3-cash-cow-status-in-microsoft-latest-quarter/11696

you posted an article from January of 2012... and it was due to the reduced shipments of PCs due to the flooding in Thailand which led to reduced sales of Windows 7. now you guys are really reaching...

I don't even understand the sales tracking anyway. Sales of an operating system are not like sales of a movie. You're in it for the long haul.

A year into Windows XP's life, less than 10% of PCs had it. The vast bulk still had Windows 98.

But it'll be a moot point anyway if Microsoft moves away from the 3 year cycle:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/why-steven-sinofsky-is-out-at-microsoft/

Windows 8 may very well be the last version of Windows developed as a monolithic entity on a three-year schedule. Microsoft's future is codenamed "Blue." According to company insiders we've spoken to, this will not simply be a new version of Windows; it will be a set of coordinated, tightly linked products, released annually. In Blue, Windows development will not be handled exclusively by the Windows division. Windows 8 took some tentative steps in this direction, with the suite of Bing apps and the Xbox-branded Music and Video apps, but Blue will take this further still, with core features developed by other parts of the company.

This makes inter-departmental cooperation and collaboration more important than it has ever been.

Against this backdrop, Sinofsky's uneven relationships within the company become a substantial liability. Microsoft can't pull this off if teams are unwilling or unable to work with one another. Driving out big names, as happened with Chief Software Architect Ray Ozzie, head of Entertainment and Devices Robbie Bach, and Entertainment and Devices executive (and father of the Xbox) J Allard, isn't acceptable when the company is (finally) wanting to act like a singular entity and not a bunch of competing departments.
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post #369 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

...
Entertainment and Devices executive (and father of the Xbox) J Allard, isn't acceptable when the company is (finally) wanting to act like a singular entity and not a bunch of competing departments.
Allard was out due to his own behavior, not for any other reason.
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post #370 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 11:13 AM
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I like some of the Metro features. I like some of the improvements to desktop performance. But I'm not a big fan of how the two are awkwardly melded together.

I appreciate that Microsoft needs to cater to a rapidly growing market for tablets and smart phones, and the Metro interface is a laudable implementation in that regard. However, I wish they had developed along two separate tracks, a tablet OS and a desktop OS, as Apple has done with iOS and OS X. Trying to be two things at once results in not being very good at either.

That's the same reason we don't usually eat our meals with sporks.
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post #371 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Allard was out due to his own behavior, not for any other reason.

multiple articles point to Sinofsky leading the charge to terminate the Courier in favor of the Surface. Considering how much time Allard and company poured into that product, it was probably the last straw.
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post #372 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 12:42 PM
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I wish they had developed along two separate tracks, a tablet OS and a desktop OS, as Apple has done with iOS and OS X. Trying to be two things at once results in not being very good at either.
Apple is rapidly converging the two, removing things and changing a lot of the OS X interface to become a lot more like iOS. The difference is that Apple is doing a more gradual transition where the convergence with the desktop is at least a couple of versions away still.

Look at the differences between Snow Leopard (10.6) and Mountain Lion (10.8) now though.

Really, aside from not being able to run iOS apps, or having full touch integration on the desktop (though it does support a lot of multitouch trackpad gestures) there's very little different from the changes that Apple have made to OS X in recent years, compared with the way Microsoft is converging the two.

The only real difference is that Microsoft boots to a "tablet-like" app launcher by default (in OS X, Launchpad shows up as an application on the dock) and Windows 8 is capable of running tablet apps, whereas OS X is not, despite both Windows RT, and iOS running a version of their equivalent desktop OS. (there's no reason OS X shouldn't be capable of running iOS apps)

Keep in mind that OS X never even had an application launcher equivalent to the Start Menu. You were expected to open up a Finder (Explorer) window and navigate to the Applications folder, and then pin the application to your dock (Taskbar) or search with Spotlight (Start Menu/Screen) if you wanted quick access to it.
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post #373 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Apple is rapidly converging the two, removing things and changing a lot of the OS X interface to become a lot more like iOS. The difference is that Apple is doing a more gradual transition where the convergence with the desktop is at least a couple of versions away still...

I agree to some extent. Apple has always planned on merging the underpinnings of iOS and OS X to have a single operating system that runs all on devices and chipsets. And the apps become more consistent and interactive cross-platform. But, from what I understand, there will always be a distinct UI layer that is unique to desktop, touch, or voice. If my Mac desktop ever goes to a touch tile iPad interface, I'll simply claw my eyes out. I have a completely different set of needs on my desktop computers (both Mac and PC Win7) than I do on my iPhone or Galaxy tablet. I like that they each have user interfaces purposefully designed to those different sets of tasks.

I tried Windows 8 for three months on a desktop and I could never see any benefit. In fact, I felt as though it hampered my productive. Especially since I use multiple monitors and trying to find the mouse corners is absolutely maddening. As a tablet interface, I think it has some legs once you turn off the annoying refresh feature on the tiles. Ugly to look at, but useful for entertainment.
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post #374 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 03:33 PM
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why oh why do you HAVE to have a Microsoft account to get to ANYTHING on this OS - my wife nearly left when I surprise upgraded her Win8 laptop/ultrabook

she absolutely hates it and hates having a whole 'other' account to worry about...
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post #375 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

I agree to some extent. Apple has always planned on merging the underpinnings of iOS and OS X to have a single operating system that runs all on devices and chipsets. And the apps become more consistent and interactive cross-platform. But, from what I understand, there will always be a distinct UI layer that is unique to desktop, touch, or voice.
But there is still a distinct UI on the desktop in Windows. Once you are on the desktop, Metro does not intrude on it in any way, especially if you use the taskbar as your application launcher, in the same way that you would use the dock on a Mac. (but the taskbar contains some extra functionality the dock does not, such as window management and being able to pin items to an application)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

If my Mac desktop ever goes to a touch tile iPad interface, I'll simply claw my eyes out.
The Mac has already had this since OS X Lion (10.7) with Launchpad (and Launchpad gained search in 10.8) over a year before Windows 8 shipped.

The difference is that unlike Windows, you aren't used to having anything beside the dock (taskbar) or finder (explorer) to launch applications, whereas in Windows, they replaced they replaced the Start Menu with it. (something that has never existed on OS X) Functionally, the desktop is similar in Windows 8 and OS X.

Unlike Windows, OS X is already starting to transition desktop apps to being more tablet-like, by putting a big focus on fullscreen applications, and implementing automatic termination of background programs similar to what memory-constrained mobile devices do.
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Originally Posted by Mr. Pseudonym View Post

I tried Windows 8 for three months on a desktop and I could never see any benefit. In fact, I felt as though it hampered my productive. Especially since I use multiple monitors and trying to find the mouse corners is absolutely maddening.
The hot corners can be disabled via the registry (and possibly the group policy editor?) or via a tool such as this to simplify things. (it makes the changes for you) Other than that, there are a number of useful features they have added for multi-monitor setups. (particularly with the new taskbar)
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why oh why do you HAVE to have a Microsoft account to get to ANYTHING on this OS - my wife nearly left when I surprise upgraded her Win8 laptop/ultrabook
she absolutely hates it and hates having a whole 'other' account to worry about...
You only need to sign into the store with a Microsoft account (which can be created for any existing email address you already have) if you want to purchase Metro apps through the Store. There's no need to link your user account online.

If she hates the Start Screen and refuses to try it like some of the people in here, install one of the replacements for her. (as always, my recommendation is Start8, as it is the easiest to set up, and most polished)
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post #376 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Toadster View Post

why oh why do you HAVE to have a Microsoft account to get to ANYTHING on this OS - my wife nearly left when I surprise upgraded her Win8 laptop/ultrabook
she absolutely hates it and hates having a whole 'other' account to worry about...

you can use any email you have. what's the issue? you can also run a local account.

how is this different than having an Apple account or Google account or Blackberry account?
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post #377 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

you can use any email you have. what's the issue? you can also run a local account.
how is this different than having an Apple account or Google account or Blackberry account?

Because some of us don't want our email accounts tied to the OS.
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post #378 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Of course metro apps run as metro apps. But any game can be made to run as a desktop program, its up to the creator of the game to decide want he wants to do with it.
Now it shouldnt be any problem copy the windows 7 version of freecell to windows 8 since its basicly a exe file + one extra file.

I did the upgrade and there are several freecell exe files and references, but nothing runs. Even ran the program compatibility troubleshooter and it offers no clues. Since you have the easy solution for this I would really appreciate it if you could post it here.
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post #379 of 622 Old 11-17-2012, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sonyad View Post

I did the upgrade and there are several freecell exe files and references, but nothing runs. Even ran the program compatibility troubleshooter and it offers no clues. Since you have the easy solution for this I would really appreciate it if you could post it here.

I dont have an easy solution since I havnt tested it yet, but I will give it a try later today

The problem isnt so much the OS as the program itself. There is no problem creating a freecell program that run on desktop. Its just that someone needs to do it.

But test this, it works in desktop.

http://www.pog.com/games/freecell_klondike
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post #380 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sonyad View Post

Because some of us don't want our email accounts tied to the OS.

Yes, but what has this to do with Windows 8 per se? You can run a local account or you can link your account to a Microsoft Account (which used to be called a Windows Live ID, and even further back, was called Microsoft Passport). That is completely independent of whether you use an Outlook.com, Google or Apple account.

As it happens, I have a Microsoft account which is linked to my (non-Microsoft) email address that I have had for over 20 years. I did that so that my contacts, calendars and email are synced to every device (PC, tablet, smartphone) that I use. I find that convenient. But it was my choice, I didn't have to do it.

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post #381 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

you posted an article from January of 2012... and it was due to the reduced shipments of PCs due to the flooding in Thailand which led to reduced sales of Windows 7. now you guys are really reaching...

Fine, then take the latest figures from October 2012. http://www.microsoft.com/investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/PressReleaseAndWebcast/FY13/Q1/default.aspx

It's still looks like number 3 to me in terms of profit, although I grant you that in terms of rate of return, it is number 2.

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post #382 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

The problem isn't Metro per se. It's the fact that the majority of "Windows" users, use it on a desktop. And on a desktop, I'll venture that Metro apps are entirely useless. Yup, completely useless

That's an incorrect assumption. I'm an Android phone user, but I'd love Windows to have a way to run my favorite Android app on my desktop. That's what Metro is for Windows 8 phone users. For example, one of my things is following earthquakes. I much prefer the Android app Earthquake Alert! to any of the websites I've found. Unfortunately, that company doesn't appear to have a Metro app yet.

Even ignoring that, the Google Metro app seems to give different results, and perhaps more useful results, than searching their website. I've yet to fully work through this yet though, so I'm not certain how significant this difference is, but some people could very well prefer the Metro app.
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post #383 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 07:28 AM
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"Please tell me how to have my dozen apps on the screen simultaneously in Metro.

I just gave you the prime example of a full shutdown. Any other task I give you, you will simply tell me to make a shortcut or do a text search, which completely misses the point. I have no desire to operate my computer by text searches. That went out in the 80s. Here's another simple example. In Win 7, to get to the event viewer, it's 2 clicks and a few mouse moves, maybe 4 seconds. I imagine in Win 8 there is some typing involved an a winkey combo I haven't memorized. And simply accessing the desktop in the first place is a time waster. I should be able to boot directly to it, bypassing Metro entirely, no extra clicks, 3rd party apps or registry hacks.

As far as how much the world has changed for me, Win 8 hasn't changed it one bit because I refuse to use it in it's current state. It's only cost me time arguing about it on message boards with people who insist on polishing this turd."
+1
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post #384 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It's not uncommon for people to leave a company at the end of a big project like that. It also seems to be more related to his personality rather than his performance, similar to Scott Forstall's ousting. (though in that case, it seems that refusing to apologize for the Maps situation is what sealed his fate)
It's my understanding that the new head, Julie Larson-Green, was the driving force behind the Metro UI, as she has been head of UI development for a number of projects within Microsoft. (such as the Ribbon UI in Office)
So if anyone was getting fired over Windows 8's interface/performance, she would likely have been going.
All of Apple's mobile products have 4G LTE.

You mean all of Apple's latest products. My wife's iPhone doesn't have 4G, though I bought my phone at the same time and it has 4G. Apple is always behind.

Bob
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post #385 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Karyk View Post

That's an incorrect assumption. I'm an Android phone user, but I'd love Windows to have a way to run my favorite Android app on my desktop. That's what Metro is for Windows 8 phone users. For example, one of my things is following earthquakes. I much prefer the Android app Earthquake Alert! to any of the websites I've found. Unfortunately, that company doesn't appear to have a Metro app yet.
Even ignoring that, the Google Metro app seems to give different results, and perhaps more useful results, than searching their website. I've yet to fully work through this yet though, so I'm not certain how significant this difference is, but some people could very well prefer the Metro app.
You are not incorrect, there ARE instances where Metro can be useful, even on a Desktop and your example is one of them. However, the fact that Metro decides to only be full screen is a deal breaker on a DESKTOP. I wouldn't mind a "gadget bar" ala Vista gadgets that runs Metro apps on a desktop, but the whole full screen thing is stupid.

But again, that's "my" opinion. That certainly doesn't mean that it's universal and/or applies to anybody else.
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post #386 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

You are not incorrect, there ARE instances where Metro can be useful, even on a Desktop and your example is one of them. However, the fact that Metro decides to only be full screen is a deal breaker on a DESKTOP. I wouldn't mind a "gadget bar" ala Vista gadgets that runs Metro apps on a desktop, but the whole full screen thing is stupid.
But again, that's "my" opinion. That certainly doesn't mean that it's universal and/or applies to anybody else.

Metro apps running full screen doesn't bother me that much, but I would note that the Samsung Note II allows two Android apps to share the screen, so this decision my Microsoft doesn't appear to be terribly forward looking.

If I were to design Win8 I would have it boot to the desktop on PCs, with a non-removable icon for the Metro start screen.
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post #387 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ctviggen View Post

You mean all of Apple's latest products. My wife's iPhone doesn't have 4G, though I bought my phone at the same time and it has 4G. Apple is always behind.

It was amazing to me that anyone bought the 4S. I bought my Android 3G phone in 2010, and almost waited then for a 4G phone--they were only a few months away.

Currently I wouldn't buy a phone without NFC, even though I'd have little/no use for it today. I don't like buying things that are obsolete as soon as I buy them, so that rules out an iPhone 5 (as does the non-removable battery which effectively limits the phone's life to the life of the battery).
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post #388 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 08:14 AM
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Well, I've just seen the future of Windows 8 for me, and it's called 'Start is Back' (www.startisback.com). This is easily the best Start Menu replacement I've seen. Apparently, the author has used code left in Windows 8 to actually re-enable the start button, and it's exactly how it should be. You can even hot-key into Metro is the need takes you, but other than that, it's nowhere to be seen.

Well worth a look if you're even considering 'upgrading', It costs next to nothing either (I've got no connection to the author or site, just thought some might be interested).
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post #389 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tman247 View Post

Well, I've just seen the future of Windows 8 for me, and it's called 'Start is Back' (www.startisback.com). This is easily the best Start Menu replacement I've seen. Apparently, the author has used code left in Windows 8 to actually re-enable the start button, and it's exactly how it should be. You can even hot-key into Metro is the need takes you, but other than that, it's nowhere to be seen.

Well worth a look if you're even considering 'upgrading', It costs next to nothing either (I've got no connection to the author or site, just thought some might be interested).
This sounds very interesting, thank you for this. Can you (or anyone else) compare it to the Stardock solution? I haven't tried 8 since the preview, but if I could get proper Start functionality back in combination with removal or suppression of all the MetroUI crap I might give it a try again sometime, and this seems like a step towards that. (But it still kind of rubs me the wrong way that MS doesn't accomodate their customers out-of-box, something they easily could have done.)
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post #390 of 622 Old 11-18-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Here's another simple example. In Win 7, to get to the event viewer, it's 2 clicks and a few mouse moves, maybe 4 seconds. I imagine in Win 8 there is some typing involved an a winkey combo I haven't memorized. And simply accessing the desktop in the first place is a time waster. I should be able to boot directly to it, bypassing Metro entirely, no extra clicks, 3rd party apps or registry hacks.
As far as how much the world has changed for me, Win 8 hasn't changed it one bit because I refuse to use it in it's current state. It's only cost me time arguing about it on message boards with people who insist on polishing this turd."
+1

I'm sorry, but you really seem to be beyond help. Welcome to one of the nine circles of Hell. May you enjoy swirling around in a cesspit of your own making.

For the rest of us, if you want to get to the event viewer, then it's mouse down to the left bottom corner, right click and choose Event Viewer.

Job done.

Geoff Coupe
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