Cinavia and the loss of playback - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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So I've been reading up on this Cinavia and have a couple of questions. I rip my Blu and dvd's as MKV's so I can store them on my home server. From what I understand, TMT (which I use as my primary playback program) has implemented the Cinavia protection in it's latest update and apparently renders ripped copies of movies unplayable. Now I am definitely not an advocate for piracy, however, I do like the option of streaming my media. I have not updated my older version of TMT because of Cinavia and was curious about VLC player. SInce that is an open source program, I'm assuming that that can still be used to play MKV, Cinavia protected copies without any issues correct? Between Windows 8 not including WMC and now this Cinavia nonsense, us HTPC afficianado's definitely have an uphill battle to maintain out streaming wants.
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post #2 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 02:04 PM
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Media Player Classic - Home Cinema with/in Media Browser plugin to WMC is what I use.

You can also use XBMC with a WMC plugin.

Video Lan VLC, while a great product in it's on right, is not to well suited for HT, because of its interface and lack of HD Audio support.

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post #3 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 02:07 PM
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I agree. I use VLC as a main player on everything (2.0.4 rewrote critical bits so now its even better) except my HTPC. I'd second MPC, the EVR renderer is excellent. Personally, this is why I'd never buy commercial programs. You are at the whim of any changes they slap into the program.

EDIT: If you buy Win 8 now, before January, WMC is free.
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post #4 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 02:09 PM
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Cinavia detection will only ever be implimented in licensed Bluray players.
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Between Windows 8 not including WMC and now this Cinavia nonsense, us HTPC afficianado's definitely have an uphill battle to maintain out streaming wants.
No uphill battle for me. I don't use WMC or licensed commercial Bluray players so none of what you mentioned affects me in the least.
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post #5 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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How does MPC pair up with My Movies and WMC?



And how well does it work with Nvidia 3d? I did like that TMT had support for that.
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post #6 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 02:16 PM
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AFAIK, the only Windows programs that include Cinavia now are TMT and PowerDVD (presumably the more recent versions).
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post #7 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelenor View Post

How does MPC pair up with My Movies and WMC?
And how well does it work with Nvidia 3d? I did like that TMT had support for that.

I don't use My Movies but rather Media Center Master in Media Browser. MPC-HC is a player that is very robust and with LAV and MadVR you can do 3D with nVidia Control Panel although I don't really care for 3D so I don't use it. BTW, which video card do you have?

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post #8 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelenor View Post

How does MPC pair up with My Movies and WMC?
And how well does it work with Nvidia 3d? I did like that TMT had support for that.

Yeah, the only problem I foresee for my setup is 3D. As far as I know, there is no available 3D MVC program for playback other than PowerDVD and TMT. So Cineavia is a concern for those and it is why I won't be upgrading TMT further. However, I use MPC-HC like everyone else for regular 2d content
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post #9 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pelenor View Post

So I've been reading up on this Cinavia and have a couple of questions. I rip my Blu and dvd's as MKV's so I can store them on my home server. From what I understand, TMT (which I use as my primary playback program) has implemented the Cinavia protection in it's latest update and apparently renders ripped copies of movies unplayable. Now I am definitely not an advocate for piracy, however, I do like the option of streaming my media. I have not updated my older version of TMT because of Cinavia and was curious about VLC player. SInce that is an open source program, I'm assuming that that can still be used to play MKV, Cinavia protected copies without any issues correct? Between Windows 8 not including WMC and now this Cinavia nonsense, us HTPC afficianado's definitely have an uphill battle to maintain out streaming wants.

I have all my movies 450 of them ripped as folder structures to my WHS. I recently updated TMT 5 yesterday, and my ripped blu-ray and DVDs play just fine. I watched three movies yesterday and two of them were blu-ray format. I even played another ripped to folder structure blu-ray this morning before I left for work and it plays just fine. Where are you getting this information that Cinavia doesn't allow ripped movies to play through TMT5?

If you're that worried about not being able to play your rips then keep a back up of your original TMT5 installer if you decide to upgrade. Honestly I have played several movies already and Cinavia doesn't interfere with playback of ripped movies at all. It's like most other forms of copy protection in that it's there to read discs protected by Cinavia. If TMT5 stopped playing rips, then it would be Arcsoft that would have taken that feature out of the software.
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post #10 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 03:36 PM
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This only effects blu-rays encoded with the cinevia watermark.

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post #11 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

This only effects blu-rays encoded with the cinevia watermark.

It's not clear at least to me if he is refering to ripped discs that are protected by Cinavia are rendered unplayable or ripped discs in general that Cinavia is stopping TMT5 from playing any ripped discs. Re-reading his first post, it sounds like he is just refering to discs that are protected by Cinavia. At any rate Slysoft is working on that...
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post #12 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 04:32 PM
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Ripped discs with the watermark will not play in commercial software.

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post #13 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 04:52 PM
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I can confirm that the latest version of TMT5 definitely does not playback ripped Cinavia protected discs.

To me I think the only real solution is a non commercial player, it has been pretty much been confirmed that there will probably never be an "on the fly" solution to Cinavia, and any solutions will have to re-encode the audio, which will take up time and may not even keep the same quality as the original audio.

I wish more time was put into creating a great non-licensed player, as I don't believe any current player is quite good enough at BD/ISO playback, I have about 10 or so discs that all non commercial players I have tried incorrectly play the wrong playlist or track, although its not a huge pain, it would be nice if it worked 100%

To the OPs original post - if you already have everything ripped as MKV, it might be a good idea to look into other players that don't implement Cinavia, most of them playback MKV pretty much perfectly and will be as good as TMT, plus all Cinavia affected titles will still play with no issues..
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post #14 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 05:41 PM
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^^ you mean Cinavia "infected" files, don't you?

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post #15 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 05:45 PM
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Nope. Affected is the correct term. Infected means to affect in a contageous manner and Cinavia does not reproduce itself.
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post #16 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

I can confirm that the latest version of TMT5 definitely does not playback ripped Cinavia protected discs.
To me I think the only real solution is a non commercial player, it has been pretty much been confirmed that there will probably never be an "on the fly" solution to Cinavia, and any solutions will have to re-encode the audio, which will take up time and may not even keep the same quality as the original audio.
I wish more time was put into creating a great non-licensed player, as I don't believe any current player is quite good enough at BD/ISO playback, I have about 10 or so discs that all non commercial players I have tried incorrectly play the wrong playlist or track, although its not a huge pain, it would be nice if it worked 100%
To the OPs original post - if you already have everything ripped as MKV, it might be a good idea to look into other players that don't implement Cinavia, most of them playback MKV pretty much perfectly and will be as good as TMT, plus all Cinavia affected titles will still play with no issues..

I'm really hoping that XBMC 12.0 "Frodo" + Anydvd speedmenu will be a good solution. Anydvd's speedmenu apparently uses some sort of advanced selection logic to chose the correct feature track. I wish I knew how it worked. Unfortunately, HDMV menus are still pretty buggy on the most recent XBMC nightly, and it's not very user friendly (you have to go and find the index file in the blu-ray folder structure). I'm hoping the XBMC dev team will smooth this out by the time 12.0 is released.

Edit: I was wrong. You don't have to navigate to the index file. If you scan videos to your library as movies, it enables the XBMC stacking feature. Then you just select the movie title and press play.
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post #17 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Nope. Affected is the correct term. Infected means to affect in a contageous manner and Cinavia does not reproduce itself.

Right, it is more of a cancer than a virus.
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post #18 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddyboy View Post

I have all my movies 450 of them ripped as folder structures to my WHS. I recently updated TMT 5 yesterday, and my ripped blu-ray and DVDs play just fine. I watched three movies yesterday and two of them were blu-ray format. I even played another ripped to folder structure blu-ray this morning before I left for work and it plays just fine. Where are you getting this information that Cinavia doesn't allow ripped movies to play through TMT5?
If you're that worried about not being able to play your rips then keep a back up of your original TMT5 installer if you decide to upgrade. Honestly I have played several movies already and Cinavia doesn't interfere with playback of ripped movies at all. It's like most other forms of copy protection in that it's there to read discs protected by Cinavia. If TMT5 stopped playing rips, then it would be Arcsoft that would have taken that feature out of the software.
Got any from this list: http://veehd.com/forum/viewtopic?f=263185 ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Nope. Affected is the correct term. Infected means to affect in a contageous manner and Cinavia does not reproduce itself.
Sure it does. It can even be reproduced through the microphone of a CamCorder. That's the whole point. The Cinavia watermark infects the audio track no matter what you do to alter it.
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post #19 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 11:42 PM
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Right, it is more of a cancer than a virus.
Then you have never experienced cancer. I'm sick of hearing this crap... welcome to ignore.
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post #20 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

Sure it does. It can even be reproduced through the microphone of a CamCorder. That's the whole point. The Cinavia watermark infects the audio track no matter what you do to alter it.
No it doesn't. It is embedded in the original audio and you are making a copy of the signal. Not the same thing. If you put a Cinavia protected disc in your computer, the protection does not spread to any of your other files.

It is simply an audio watermark. Similar to the CBS logo embedded in a TV show.
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post #21 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

No it doesn't. It is embedded in the original audio and you are making a copy of the signal. Not the same thing. If you put a Cinavia protected disc in your computer, the protection does not spread to any of your other files.
It is simply an audio watermark. Similar to the CBS logo embedded in a TV show.
ToMAYto, toMAHto.
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post #22 of 160 Old 10-29-2012, 11:53 PM
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Not even close.
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post #23 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 07:40 AM
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post #24 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

Got any from this list: http://veehd.com/forum/viewtopic?f=263185 ??
Sure it does. It can even be reproduced through the microphone of a CamCorder. That's the whole point. The Cinavia watermark infects the audio track no matter what you do to alter it.
I have battle los angeles in blu-ray and priest in DVD. The copy that I have of battle los angeles does not have Cinavia. If it had it then it wouldn't play on .144 revision of TMT5, and I wouldn't be able to rip it to my server which I usually do right away when I buy a movie. Now that may have changed with subsequent production runs of the disc, but mine doesn't have it. My rip plays perfectly.
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post #25 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

BTW, which video card do you have?

I have an Nvidia GTX 460 OC smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddyboy View Post

I have battle los angeles in blu-ray and priest in DVD. The copy that I have of battle los angeles does not have Cinavia. If it had it then it wouldn't play on .144 revision of TMT5,

The Cinavia was added to version 5.3.1.172 which is th elatest updagte. i too have .144 which is why I'm not updating it. And to clarify, it doesn't make ALL ripped movies unplayable, only those with the Cinavia watermark that is on both DVD and Blu ray. The list of movies is here.

http://blog.dvdfab.com/cinavia-protection.html
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post #26 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelenor View Post

I have an Nvidia GTX 460 OC smile.gif
The Cinavia was added to version 5.3.1.172 which is th elatest updagte. i too have .144 which is why I'm not updating it. And to clarify, it doesn't make ALL ripped movies unplayable, only those with the Cinavia watermark that is on both DVD and Blu ray. The list of movies is here.
http://blog.dvdfab.com/cinavia-protection.html

Your post was a little vague to me, but I re-read it, and then I understood what you were refering too. It's a nuisance at worst. I buy all my movies and rip them as folder structures to my server, and then burn copies to disc so my nephews 9 and 10 years old can play them without destroying the original. It was getting way to expensive replacing them because they would just be really hard on the discs.

I'll just have to wait and see what Slysoft comes up with. They are developing a new ripper Slyce. It won't support ripping discs with Cinavia at first, but it is planned for. I think we just need to be a little patient. smile.gif
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post #27 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

See 3.
Do you have proof that it affects quality?
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

Which one?
One definition of affect is "to influence" or "to cause an effect":
http://www.writersblock.ca/tips/monthtip/tipsep99a.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect (see second paragraph)
http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+affect&qpvt=affect&FORM=DTPDIA (see # 1)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/affect (see # 1)

Cinavia affects playback.
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post #28 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 06:12 PM
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The problem cinavia poses with me is only in regards to watching 3d blurays in full resolution. I backup almost exclusively to 1080p mkv, but there is no way to do this with smooth playback for 3d blurays, without settling for SBS format which is not as high resolution as a straight bluray copy.

I love my htpc I built, but there doesn't seem to be a program to play 3d blurays in iso or folder format that can get around cinavia. Using an older version of PowerDVD and TMT is not practical, as they need updates to play some of the recent 3d blurays at all.

I don't want to buy another bluray player that came out before Cinavia just for 3d blurays, when I already have an htpc and a ps3. I have been considering switching to a standalone media player like the med8er 1000 which is supposed to play 3d bluray isos without cinavia interfering, but I have found very little user experience about how well this actually works, and not many places sell this european based product.

And I hate to lose the flexibility of xbmc and a windows based htpc.
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post #29 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 06:25 PM
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And people wonder why piracy is such problem . . . . you pay for a crippled product that has severe restrictions on just how you can play it. Ridiculous.
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post #30 of 160 Old 10-30-2012, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiddles88 View Post

And people wonder why piracy is such problem . . . . you pay for a crippled product that has severe restrictions on just how you can play it. Ridiculous.

How exactly does pirated content get around the cinavia problem?
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