Mfusick's How to build an affordable 30TB Flexraid media server: Information Requested.! - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:07 PM
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I agree in part Assassin

I've not seen any relevant study posted showing that green drives don't last as long for HTPC or media server usage . . .

There is some info here about the relative HD playback power requirement of current drives Link

An older article on Ars went over this exact same topic 2 years ago, and they even mentioned HTPCs. ars link

However, in regard to the notion that Green Drives are usually cheaper, I think this has changed recently. In my experience with slickdeals, techbargains, etc, I have found the cheapest drives to be 7200 rpm 3 TB Seagate drives

To my own personal use, it has never made much economical since to pay more for a green drive. I thought that all spun down drives use the same power, and I was wrong. It looks like only the green drives use less than 1W, but the others don't usually consume more than 2W when spun down. I have a couple of green drives, and I bought them back when that was the cheapest thing to buy.

The reason I might not want to continue buying green drives for my storage drives would be that I'm a control freak. I like to be sure that it's spinning down when I tell it to and staying that way because I tell it to. I believe that WD green drives are really 7200 rpm, but their intellipower management dictates their rotational speed on demand (somewhere between 5400-7200, but usually 5400 I'd guess). To achieve the lower power usage, they use more aggressive APM settings which spin down whenever the drive determines. There are tools that let you control APM settings yourself, and I'd rather go that route. I really don't mind the extra heat for the 2-3 hours of usage as long as I can control when it spins down. The only drives I've read people having trouble with effectively spinning down using various softwares (hdparm, hddscan) were green drives (Samsung Eco and WD)
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post #122 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:11 PM
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I was researching a bit around, and this is what i came up with SuperMicro. Not sure if this is discussed earlier on this thread.
http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C202_C204/X9SCM-F.cfm
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post #123 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:15 PM
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Extra heat, extra wattage and extra noise are potentially a big deal when you are talking about servers with multiple drives. As you add more drives the sound seems to multiply exponentially in some cases with some of the noisier 7200RPM drives that I have used.

Also, before the flood you could easily get a green 2TB drive for $70 shipped. That's when I bought the majority of mine that I currently use. Even now you can find a 2TB green drive in an external case for about $80 if you know where to look.
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post #124 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah the energy is pretty close. If there was an advantage in performance and reliability I'd gladly spend a few extra bucks on my electric bill.

Green is good but I think sometimes we take the energy savings too far.

On flip side- I like the energy savings and its a fair trade for the performance you give up. I'd gladly make the trade for better energy efficiency provided the reliability was on par.

I don't disagree at all with assassin - I actually want to agree.

I just feel I'm not fully convinced yet.

I generally buy my storage based on capacity/price ratio. I'd like to continue buying green drives when they are cheapest or available at good prices.
That's my only motivation here.


EDITED: Sorry to Assassin for being an Ass.

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post #125 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I'm actually asking you and others to point out its ok to use a green drive in a 24/7 server with WHS2011 and Flexraid.
I want to believe it is ok. I'd like to use them without second guessing if I am limiting the lifespan.
I'm not sure why your trying to argue with me. You seem almost hostile and I'm only asking.
But I do appreciate your reply and I do want to believe you but you haven't convinced me yet.
Your data is old and suspect. It's far from case closed.

Am I arguing or asking you to back up your unsubstantiated claims? Ask yourself that question.

Because you make statements with one side of your mouth and then with the other you admit that you have absolutely nothing to back it up. Then I show you the data that is available and you choose to reject it time and time again (on this issue and others) unless it jives with your own personal unsubstantiated viewpoint. I just don't get it.

Again, post something that either endorses your opinion or stop acting like you did "digging" and "researching" or whatever you want to call it to form an opinion from actual fact.

Look at the FlexRaid forums. Plenty of people using green drives without issue (including me, flocko, and many others here at AVS) yet I am sure you will ignore our experiences as well.
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post #126 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:26 PM
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Wouldn't it actually make more sense that something mechanical that travels at a faster (and unnecessarily faster I might add for a HTPC server) speed with more wear and has higher heat as a result is more likely to fail? That's why I think that we see a higher failure and return rate of the 7200RPM drives compared to the Green drives.

To me that makes more sense and the data supports it. Again, show me where I am wrong.
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post #127 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I realize in addition to using green drives personally - he has an even greater personal interest on that he doesn't just reccomend them but actively sells servers and HTPCs with them inside. I get why he's passionate about this issue.

Now that's just laughable Mfusick. You really need to watch what you are saying in a public forum.

As has been pointed out the best "bang for the buck" hard drive right now are likely the 7200RPM drives. I use green drives at a GREATER cost per GB ratio as I think they are quite simply a much better drive for the HTPC environment for storage and media playback.

That is, of course, unless you can back up your claims with data as I have requested.
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post #128 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Extra heat, extra wattage and extra noise are potentially a big deal when you are talking about servers with multiple drives. As you add more drives the sound seems to multiply exponentially in some cases with some of the noisier 7200RPM drives that I have used.
Also, before the flood you could easily get a green 2TB drive for $70 shipped. That's when I bought the majority of mine that I currently use. Even now you can find a 2TB green drive in an external case for about $80 if you know where to look.

All true in some cases but also not.

My planned built is in a superior case with plenty of cooling and sound protection. In a climate controlled environment - and away from where its ever going to be heard.

So I only buy a green drive if its cheaper and on par reliable. I think your arguments supporting green drives are all valid but they apply much less to a server than a HTPC.

Most servers are designed around those issues- and I don't plan on putting my server in my living room.

I'd certainly say a green drive is best choice in a HTPC for storage. For a server I'm still searching for that answer.

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post #129 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:32 PM
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All true in some cases but also not.
My planned built is in a superior case with plenty of cooling and sound protection. In a climate controlled environment - and away from where its ever going to be heard.
So I only buy a green drive if its cheaper and on par reliable. I think your arguments supporting green drives are all valid but they apply much less to a server than a HTPC.
Most servers are designed around those issues- and I don't plan on putting my server in my living room.
I'd certainly say a green drive is best choice in a HTPC for storage. For a server I'm still searching for that answer.

Again, there is quite a bit of difference between a hardware RAID server and a software based RAID server. Make sure you are accurate in your "digging".

You also need to remind yourself that you are in a HTPC forum. If you want to discuss hardcore servers with enterprise like performance you might want to try another forum.
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post #130 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:32 PM
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Do you use pooling? If so, what do you use with SnapRAID?

No, I don't pool my drives using any software solution. I use a simple batch script that creates junctions for my media into a common share. Generally speaking, I add media to the array at most once a day, so after I add the media, and after metabrowser adds the metadata and artwork, then I can kick off the script which will update the parity data (takes minutes) and refresh the directory junctions (takes seconds). It's not that I have anything against drive pooling, I used it during my unRAID days no problem, but I like having more control. The set up is not final in the sense that I may experiment some more when time permits. I do have a license for Drive Bender, but did not like how it managed the pooling so uninstalled it. I also did not have much luck with flexRAID realtime when I was testing things out (they have since identified what was wrong - but since starting to use SnapRAID and finding it does the job fine, I've not been compelled to try FlexRAID out again - maybe when Brahim releases NZFS I think it was called).

But that is my situation, and my view is that you need to evaluate on a personal level what you want from the solution and weigh up the pros and cons for each one before making a decision. I've nothing against ZFS, just the notion that it is somehow the only valid solution when talking about large arrays for media storage because in my opinion, that is where it falls short.
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post #131 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:40 PM
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But that is my situation, and my view is that you need to evaluate on a personal level what you want from the solution and weigh up the pros and cons for each one before making a decision

Very true. Just like just about everything in this hobby/obsession nothing is perfect so pick the one that suits your needs the best.
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post #132 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Assassin- I don't know how many times I can explain it to you that I'm just looking for a good answer.

Your response appears at times excessively defensive and not objective. Your vehement defense makes me question your stance more - not less.

I think it extremely appropriate to ask this concern in this forum as its a media server primarily geared to HTPC.

You can't argue the same "it's a HTPC forum" every time someone doesn't agree with you.

I clearly stated I own green drives, and I'm about as objective and non brand/model specific as they come. I don't understand your apparent frustration that I just don't roll over and agree with you.

My personal motivation is clearly explained: I'm looking for some solid validation that reliability isn't being sacrificed using a WD green drive with intellipark in a 24/7 server and Flexraid. If I find it (and I want to find it) I will continue purchasing green drives and just accept the high amount if RMA I've done on these as simple bad luck. I've always been a longtime WD guy.

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post #133 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 09:05 PM
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Man is this exhausting...

This...
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Assassin- I don't know how many times I can explain it to you that I'm just looking for a good answer.

Was preceeded by this...
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Half my drives are green but in shying away from more the more and more I read about it.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

So I did some digging and. It appears green drives are a poor choice (WD) if you have constant use or run software raid like Flexraid.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I basically changed my opinion to : green drives will work but black or red will probably work either better or longer. I'm assuming lower reliability and of life expectancy is the result of using a green drive where you shouldn't. Any normal non WD drive doesn't use intellipark so it's probably not an issue with any of those btw...
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Assassin- I don't know how many times I can explain it to you that I'm just looking for a good answer.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

And I didn't do any digging either.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

If all things being equal -I'd prob continue to pass on WD green for another just to be safe.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

But for 2$ month in energy I'd much rather have a drive that lasts longer and performs better. The performance issue isn't enough for me to choose a 7200tpm drive over a green drive. But the reliability issue added into the mix probably is.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Your data is old and suspect. It's far from case closed.

Then came the ridiculous accusation and attack which is just totally unsubstantiated and frankly just ignorant...
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I realize in addition to using green drives personally - he has an even greater personal interest on that he doesn't just reccomend them but actively sells servers and HTPCs with them inside. I get why he's passionate about this issue. But I think I'm being misunderstood cause I'm not arguing back. I'm just looking for a good answer on the issue.
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post #134 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 09:13 PM
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What a waste of time. I am done with this discussion and frankly also with debating with someone who has twice this week clandestinely basically accused me of being dishonest and having ulterior motives while he freely admits to having no real idea and is "just looking for a good answer" yet amazingly spouted out numerous ignorant statements on this topic that just aren't true at the same time.

Unbelievable.

I have much better areas to spend my time.
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post #135 of 4000 Old 11-15-2012, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I think your oversensitive. It's like anytime anyone posts something you don't agree with you go off the deep end. And if that don't work you take your ball and go home.

I actually appreciate your points and data, but it gets overshadowed by your borderline hostile approach. It hurts your credibility (at least with me) more than helps it.

I'm still not understanding your apparent frustration that I even dare to question a Green drives reliability in a 24/7 server. It's not like I'm openly bashing green drives - which your reaction suggests. I'm just questioning it- hoping for a good answer. It's funny how you keep trying to make it a challenge and push me to post data when I'm really asking for the same thing and want to believe all the nonsense about a green drive in a 24/7 server is just BS.

How's asking the question or posting the challenge such an offensive thing ???

If you believe so strongly in green drives in servers then the balls in your court and its your challenge to prove your point. Turning around and pretending I'm wrong for asking the question just isn't a proper defense - nor is it helpful.

Apology if I insulted you about your personal use and business use of green drives. That wasn't my intent. My sole intention was explaining I felt your viewpoint is somewhat predetermined. Please accept my apology if you think at all I'm saying your "dishonest " because I am certainly not. I do value your opinion and feedback very much.

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post #136 of 4000 Old 11-16-2012, 11:56 AM
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Mfusick,

In case you aren't aware, you appear to be bashing assassin's reputation and trying to appear blameless all in the same breath.

When you make statements about what you found, read, or researched and don't provide any FACTS to back it up, how can anybody take it seriously.

You could say IMO instead, so nobody thinks it is really based on FACTS that you uncovered.

And, Yes, I think assassin has a point about you accusing him of having ulterior motives,which is simply not a polite or appropriate mode of communication on this forum.

I get a kick out of reading about your exploits here and there, just be a little more aware.
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post #137 of 4000 Old 11-16-2012, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Fair enough. Thanks.

Switching gears what's the thoughts on a 2500k CPU for whs server ?

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.aspx?sku=200121

Microcenter has it for 99$

Seems like a great deal. Too power hungry ?

When not in use is there huge power change from an i3 ?

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post #138 of 4000 Old 11-19-2012, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

What a waste of time. I am done with this discussion and frankly also with debating with someone who has twice this week clandestinely basically accused me of being dishonest and having ulterior motives while he freely admits to having no real idea and is "just looking for a good answer" yet amazingly spouted out numerous ignorant statements on this topic that just aren't true at the same time.
Unbelievable.
I have much better areas to spend my time.

Hmmm...

I have a feeling of deja-vu. biggrin.gif
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post #139 of 4000 Old 11-20-2012, 01:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Not to flame the fire but can someone tell me if I an an idiot....

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/hdd-charts-2012/-26-Power-Requirement-at-Idle,2917.html

Is this TomsHardware chart not saying that both the Red and the Seagate Barracuda 3TB and 2TBs are using less power than a 2 or 3TB WD green ?

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post #140 of 4000 Old 11-20-2012, 02:31 PM
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Yes, the WD green 1 TB is the winner almost all across the board, but the 2 and 3 TB models are middle of the pack

2TB green is neck and neck with my current favorite (Seagate 3TB sata III 7200) during HD movie playback

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/hdd-charts-2012/-27-Power-Requirement-HD-Video-Playback,2916.html

Idle power draw is still fairly moot to my usage since only the recording storage hdd stays idle
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post #141 of 4000 Old 11-20-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Yes, the WD green 1 TB is the winner almost all across the board, but the 2 and 3 TB models are middle of the pack
2TB green is neck and neck with my current favorite (Seagate 3TB sata III 7200) during HD movie playback
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/hdd-charts-2012/-27-Power-Requirement-HD-Video-Playback,2916.html
Idle power draw is still fairly moot to my usage since only the recording storage hdd stays idle

I keep leaning more and more towards the Seagate 3tb since 89$ is such a steal. I just grabbed one and I'll grab another for this price if it pops up on Black Friday.

If the WD green actually uses same energy about, is a bit lower performance and a higher cost per GB is see little use in buyin it anymore even if the reliability if intellipark wast suspect. This is my opinion. The red WD has better warranty and performance and cost about same too- and it also uses less power.

I'm not worried about a couple bucks either way.. In electricity. Nor am I worried as much about a small performance advantage. I'm most worried about reliability. Too bad Seagate has shorter warranty-- that's the equalizer.

I've RMA enough HDDs to appreciate a longer warranty period.

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post #142 of 4000 Old 11-20-2012, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Yes, the WD green 1 TB is the winner almost all across the board, but the 2 and 3 TB models are middle of the pack
2TB green is neck and neck with my current favorite (Seagate 3TB sata III 7200) during HD movie playback
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/hdd-charts-2012/-27-Power-Requirement-HD-Video-Playback,2916.html
Idle power draw is still fairly moot to my usage since only the recording storage hdd stays idle

1tb is worthless to me. I need 3tb.

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post #143 of 4000 Old 11-20-2012, 03:48 PM
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Mfusick, i have already allocated 1000 bucks just for 3tb hdd's if they pop up on black friday at MC. smile.gif
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post #144 of 4000 Old 11-20-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Mfusick, i have already allocated 1000 bucks just for 3tb hdd's if they pop up on black friday at MC. smile.gif

Slick deals posted an Amazin deal I jumped on for 89$.

It was external so I'll crack it open.

But it looks like TigerDirect will have the internals for 89$.

http://www.theblackfriday.com/ads/tigerdirect/tigerdirect-black-friday-ad5.shtml

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post #145 of 4000 Old 11-20-2012, 05:00 PM
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Slick deals posted an Amazin deal I jumped on for 89$.
It was external so I'll crack it open.
But it looks like TigerDirect will have the internals for 89$.
http://www.theblackfriday.com/ads/tigerdirect/tigerdirect-black-friday-ad5.shtml

That is neat, both compusa, frys and microcenter are in my area.. just few miles apart from each other, i guess i am going on a goose hunt friday morning.
Plan to pick up Corsiar XMS 8gb ram for 19 bucks from MC, around 10 x 3TB HDD's from CompUSA if they are selling at store (do they have a limit set).. and then try to peep into MC to see if they have th i5 on the same sale price of 99.. For now they have the stocks back in for 159 dollars, so that hints that they have new stocks and they might want to sell it off on BF for the same deal.
Gosh, this BF is going to be brutal.. i also wanted a Nikon D7000, but i think i will have to push that back.. HDD's prices seem to hit bottom rock only for this BF... cant miss this opportunity.
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post #146 of 4000 Old 11-21-2012, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like newegg has started and posted Black Friday deals

I already bought 3 more 3tb HDDs for 89$ each and free shipping

That's 3 cents per GB!

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post #147 of 4000 Old 11-21-2012, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Yes, the WD green 1 TB is the winner almost all across the board, but the 2 and 3 TB models are middle of the pack
2TB green is neck and neck with my current favorite (Seagate 3TB sata III 7200) during HD movie playback
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/hdd-charts-2012/-27-Power-Requirement-HD-Video-Playback,2916.html
Idle power draw is still fairly moot to my usage since only the recording storage hdd stays idle

I wonder why there's such a large discrepancy between the numbers at Tom's and at SPCR (see image below) for the WD 2 TB green (WD20EARS) at idle:


I don't trust Tom's, which has it at both 5+ watts idle and during playback.The 2.8 W at idle seems more reasonable (down to 2.4 W after head parking).
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post #148 of 4000 Old 11-21-2012, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I think we are talking about a couple watts which means nothing anyways...

So I just dropped it since it didn't matter much.

3tb @89$ it takes a long time for it to use up the $50 savings vs a green drive at my .065 per kWh rate.

If I did actually care- I'd get the Red because it uses less power than the green, performs better, has better reliability and warranty for same price.

Plus no issues if head parking or whatever with Red. Even if intellipark isnt a big deal the piece of mind and other factors I listed make Red a better choice.

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post #149 of 4000 Old 11-21-2012, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I ended up getting this motherboard for basically $75

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157330&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&AID=10446076&PID=4003003&SID=e5468uc1ejas

It came with 8gb ddr3 gskill for 99$ which is worth at least 30$

So 99$ with memory is like 69$ for board.

It's Z77 with 8 SATA and two PCI 3.0 slots. Both run x8 for SATA cards so it looked like a good deal.

Thoughts ???

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post #150 of 4000 Old 11-21-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I think we are talking about a couple watts which means nothing anyways...
So I just dropped it since it didn't matter much.
3tb @89$ it takes a long time for it to use up the $50 savings vs a green drive at my .065 per kWh rate.
If I did actually care- I'd get the Red because it uses less power than the green, performs better, has better reliability and warranty for same price.
Plus no issues if head parking or whatever with Red. Even if intellipark isnt a big deal the piece of mind and other factors I listed make Red a better choice.

Yep, I bought a Seagate 2TB for $69 at Newegg today. No need to pay $30 more for a WD Green that will perform worse and not even make up the difference in power savings. It helps that the Seagate seems to have a good acoustic profile too.
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