Is the HDHomeRun Prime the best way to receive encrypted HD these day? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 12-01-2012, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Or is a cable card compatible tv tuner installed in the HTPC the best bet?
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post #2 of 19 Old 12-01-2012, 02:37 PM
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HDHR Prime, Ceton InfiniTV. Your choice. Prime is easier to share with other PCs, Ceton has one more tuner but the HTPC needs to remain on if you want to share it. Ceton also has a USB version. I have a Prime, mostly because Woot had them for $120 but it works out well for me as it serves as the 'Cable Box' for multiple TVs in the house.


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post #3 of 19 Old 12-01-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

HDHR Prime, Ceton InfiniTV. Your choice. Prime is easier to share with other PCs, Ceton has one more tuner but the HTPC needs to remain on if you want to share it. Ceton also has a USB version. I have a Prime, mostly because Woot had them for $120 but it works out well for me as it serves adone s the 'Cable Box' for multiple TVs in the house.
I'd argue that the Ceton InfiniTV is the best way to get encrypted HDTV on your PC today smile.gif
I'd also like to point out some of the things that Ceton has done for the HTPC community, that to the best of my knowledge, none of the other vendors have pushed for:
-Gotten Microsoft to fix multiple WMC bugs, and guide-data issues
-Pushed various operators to replace obsolete/buggy versions of CableCARD and TA firmware (example, I pretty much made it my personal mission to exterminate Cisco TA firmware 1402, for instance)
-Pushed the operators for better CableCARD support and pairing processes

I will absolutely state that I feel that Ceton has done far more to help the WMC community than any other OCUR manufacturer. In fact, I am not aware of any of the other manufacturers pushing for similar things.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #4 of 19 Old 12-01-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I'd argue that the Ceton InfiniTV is the best way to get encrypted HDTV on your PC today smile.gif
I'd also like to point out some of the things that Ceton has done for the HTPC community, that to the best of my knowledge, none of the other vendors have pushed for:
-Gotten Microsoft to fix multiple WMC bugs, and guide-data issues
-Pushed various operators to replace obsolete/buggy versions of CableCARD and TA firmware (example, I pretty much made it my personal mission to exterminate Cisco TA firmware 1402, for instance)
-Pushed the operators for better CableCARD support and pairing processes
I will absolutely state that I feel that Ceton has done far more to help the WMC community than any other OCUR manufacturer. In fact, I am not aware of any of the other manufacturers pushing for similar things.
? Then you'd be arguing with yourself. Ceton does indeed make a fine product. I'm considering installing the PCI version in my main HTPC to handle most recording tasks. This would free up my HDHR Prime to service the other two HTPCs exclusively. You can never have too many tuners...


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post #5 of 19 Old 12-01-2012, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there any pro/cons to using the Ceton PCI card tuner vs the USB external tuner?
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post #6 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by qwerty11 View Post

Is there any pro/cons to using the Ceton PCI card tuner vs the USB external tuner?
There have been instances reported where the USB tuner drops off the USB bus without warning. I don't know how often it happens, but it's something to consider. It may not be a major issue with the unit, but it can be annoying when it happens. I've got two of the PCI-e versions in my PC as well as a HDHR Prime. I use the Prime for sharing with other PCs and the InfiniTV4's for the majority of my recording from FIOS. Both seem to do the job well.
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post #7 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

There have been instances reported where the USB tuner drops off the USB bus without warning. I don't know how often it happens, but it's something to consider. It may not be a major issue with the unit, but it can be annoying when it happens. I've got two of the PCI-e versions in my PC as well as a HDHR Prime. I use the Prime for sharing with other PCs and the InfiniTV4's for the majority of my recording from FIOS. Both seem to do the job well.
We are not aware of any issues with the InfiniTV that cause this on current software - if you are experiencing this, please open a support ticket

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #8 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 10:35 AM
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Eric, I do not personally own the USB version of the InfiniTV4. I just recall reading several posts reporting this problem in various forums. Chances are it's a relatively small number of instances at best. I have experience using other USB tuners of various makes and models and had the very same issue with all of them. It was usually related to an underpowered external USB hub. I'd wager that whatever motherboard was being used with the InfiniTV4 USB wasn't providing the proper power level to support all four tuners.
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post #9 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

Eric, I do not personally own the USB version of the InfiniTV4. I just recall reading several posts reporting this problem in various forums. Chances are it's a relatively small number of instances at best. I have experience using other USB tuners of various makes and models and had the very same issue with all of them. It was usually related to an underpowered external USB hub. I'd wager that whatever motherboard was being used with the InfiniTV4 USB wasn't providing the proper power level to support all four tuners.

No, it is not a power issue. Anyway, the InfiniTV USB has its own power supply.

The USB InfiniTV dropping problem still exists, but with the latest beta firmware it is not as bad as it used to be. The problem is that the InfiniTV crashes eventually due to a slow memory leak -- you can watch the memory use slowly creep up on the status web page (I'm talking about memory use internal to the InfiniTV). Before some firmware updates this year, it used to be a faster memory leak, and the InfiniTV USB would crash after a few weeks of uptime, but now I can go over a month without the InfiniTV crashing. So anyone who "reboots" their USB InfiniTV periodically should be okay.

And before anyone asks, yes I have installed the Windows USB hotfix, and yes I have disabled USB selective suspend. And yes, I opened a ticket with Ceton about it a while ago and provided all the information they requested.
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post #10 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I'd argue that the Ceton InfiniTV is the best way to get encrypted HDTV on your PC today smile.gif
I'd also like to point out some of the things that Ceton has done for the HTPC community, that to the best of my knowledge, none of the other vendors have pushed for:
-Gotten Microsoft to fix multiple WMC bugs, and guide-data issues
-Pushed various operators to replace obsolete/buggy versions of CableCARD and TA firmware (example, I pretty much made it my personal mission to exterminate Cisco TA firmware 1402, for instance)
-Pushed the operators for better CableCARD support and pairing processes
I will absolutely state that I feel that Ceton has done far more to help the WMC community than any other OCUR manufacturer. In fact, I am not aware of any of the other manufacturers pushing for similar things.

Not to pick-nits because it's clear to me that Ceton has done a lot of work to support the WMC community, but . . .

I may be wrong, but I believe Silicondust made the largest push to get Cablecard decryption open-sourced. I'm pretty sure theirs was the first to support linux and XBMC via NPVR, MythTV, 4therecord.

Also, Elgato had cablecard content streaming to an ipad2 (local streaming) also possible with the prime.

I'm trying to un-hitch my home theater experience from WMC not the other way around biggrin.gif

Eric, I'm sure you know the details better than me, feel free to correct
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post #11 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I'm trying to un-hitch my home theater experience from WMC not the other way around biggrin.gif

Right, that would be good. I'd love to see some sort of binary plug-in for XBMC that provides the necessary DRM for copy-once cable content.

Oh, and a free or reasonably-priced source of guide data.
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post #12 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

Right, that would be good. I'd love to see some sort of binary plug-in for XBMC that provides the necessary DRM for copy-once cable content.

As are a lot of us biggrin.gif I don't think this is a crazy expectation,nor do I think that it's that far off
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Oh, and a free or reasonably-priced source of guide data.

Schedules Direct is $25/year

TV Guide and other free web listings can be grabbed in the same fashion as backdrops and fanart are scraped from other databases. It's a more advanced setup, but possible. It'd probably break once a year when they reformat their links
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post #13 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Not to pick-nits because it's clear to me that Ceton has done a lot of work to support the WMC community, but . . .
I may be wrong, but I believe Silicondust made the largest push to get Cablecard decryption open-sourced. I'm pretty sure theirs was the first to support linux and XBMC via NPVR, MythTV, 4therecord.
Also, Elgato had cablecard content streaming to an ipad2 (local streaming) also possible with the prime.
I'm trying to un-hitch my home theater experience from WMC not the other way around biggrin.gif
Eric, I'm sure you know the details better than me, feel free to correct

I'm not fully sort what you mean by "get Cablecard decryption open-sourced". The DRI (protocol used by CableCARD tuners) has always been publicly available, for free, on CableLabs web site. Do you mean support of CableCARD tuners in open-source software, such as MythTV? As far as I know, they didn't do anything there.

I don't know the details of the relationship, if any, Elgato and SD have, so I won't comment there, but I don't really see that as advancing the community/hobby at all. We will happily sell you software that does whatever you want, for a price, too smile.gif

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #14 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I'm not fully sort what you mean by "get Cablecard decryption open-sourced". The DRI (protocol used by CableCARD tuners) has always been publicly available, for free, on CableLabs web site. Do you mean support of CableCARD tuners in open-source software, such as MythTV? As far as I know, they didn't do anything there.

I meant getting support of CableCARD tuners outside of Windows (or at least outside of WMC), and I'd pause to add the disclaimer that I know absolutely zilch about what kind of work goes into making this a reality. I'm just happy when it starts working.

Since I've been following the cablecard support in MythTV, NPVR, and Mediaportal I've always noticed the Prime being supported first. I had thought that was due to posts such as this one
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post #15 of 19 Old 12-02-2012, 05:11 PM
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I doubt it's possible to have a 100% reliable USB device, because the USB technology just isn't that sound. So that leaves an internal device or an external network device. I prefer external, because it gives you a lot more flexibility, both now and in the future. For example, I'm hoping my next HTPC will be a notebook. Not possible if I had an internal tuner.
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post #16 of 19 Old 12-03-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

... I don't know the details of the relationship, if any, Elgato and SD have, so I won't comment there, but I don't really see that as advancing the community/hobby at all. We will happily sell you software that does whatever you want, for a price, too smile.gif

No doubt, LOL. Technically speaking, Only Elgato in this conversation sells software. SD has some software, QuickTV, for Windows, but I'm not sure if they make it or not, and it's only to watch live TV.

I'm not knocking either company. Both seem to be well regarding in the HTPC arena for various reasons. Each has their pros/cons. The reality is, both companies work is what help move this area forward. But it's the consumers is the motivator for both, which pushes them to work with TV providers to bring products the consumers want.

But as it stands now, Ceton and SD are needed for encrypted TV. You also need WMC. Maybe, the XBMC may be able to add that feature in the future. But seeing how it's just been launch for the public; I think it's still in beta, it may be some time.
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post #17 of 19 Old 12-03-2012, 03:01 PM
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But as it stands now, Ceton and SD are needed for encrypted TV. You also need WMC. Maybe, the XBMC may be able to add that feature in the future.

I think there is zero chance of XBMC developers being able to add the required DRM to allow recording and playback of copy-once content. The problem is that the appropriate encryption keys would never be entrusted to open source developers.

What is needed (and I'm not sure it is possible, but it is the only way that I can see that might be possible) is for a sufficiently large and trustworthy corporation to write a binary-only component (and for the XBMC developers to support such a component) that works with XBMC to handle the DRM for recording and playback of copy-once content. Naturally, this hypothetical corporation would need to be compensated, so such a component would need to be purchased.
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post #18 of 19 Old 12-03-2012, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lovekeiiy View Post

But as it stands now, Ceton and SD are needed for encrypted TV. You also need WMC. Maybe, the XBMC may be able to add that feature in the future. But seeing how it's just been launch for the public; I think it's still in beta, it may be some time.

My hope is the push comes from the Ceton/SD side to have something independent of WMC. All of their eggs right now are in the MS basket. That's not a position I'd want to be in after investing so much in getting this tuner hardware out the door.

 

 

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post #19 of 19 Old 12-04-2012, 02:00 AM
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I'm like you guys, I would like XBMC or Plex to get something to handle this over MC. MC is ok as a DVR/Live TV software. It doesn't blow me away, but does work. My assumption was more they could try to reverse engineer something to learn how it works, and then maybe come up with a solution that would work. I figure the powers that be figure it'll just make it easier to steal or share copyrighted material. There may be some truth to it, but I don't think it's being that successful as it stands now.

As for other software, the other companies that are out there could try such as SageTV or EyeTV. I'm sure there are other commercial DVR software out there. The good thing about MC is it is back by Microsoft. Not that I think MS is that great, but they are a large enough corp that they have the power to negotiate to get this stuff out there, which at leasts, opens the door, which could bring in more consumers who want this stuff from the equipment and software they prefer to use.

On a side note, Anyone have Plex and tried playing encrypted QAM channel recording from MC? I know Plex can play ClearQAM channels, which I don't think, at least for Comcast, have restrictions to the recordings. I don't remember if I asked in another the came up about Plex and MC. For some reason, I want to say it doesn't. For my personal use, it doesn't really matter because I don't plan on getting anything beyond basic limited cable again.
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