Rack Mounted UPS Needed - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 51 Old 12-06-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdkhang View Post

It's PWM sinewave... not pure sinewave. So it's still stepped/simulated.
You want pure sinewave for sensitive equipment. e.g. AVRs, PC's can get away with less so many people have been using the cheaper stepped/simulated sine wave UPS models for PC protection. This does not mean that stepped sine wave is better for PC, it just means that the PC power supply can get away with it. Pure sinewave is always better than stepped (why it costs more). That being said, as I mentioned earlier, higher efficiency power supplies might "require" pure sinewave to work at it's best (can't recall exactly why so don't quote me on that).

Thats good information, and a great learning experience for the UPS based technology. Another question, so while looking around for a UPS and looking at the manufacturers page, how can one know if its pwn sinewave or pure sinewave, cos the only mention i see on various manufaturers pages are the words "based on sinewave" technology.
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post #32 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

Would you care to back this up with some documentation? That's a pretty serious allegation to make.

Multiple APC Smart-UPSs I have owned over the years, and replaced the batteries in to bring them back to life. Also https://www.google.com/search?q=apc+ups+dead+batteries

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post #33 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

I think paying over 400 dollars for a 750VA / 560W UPS is way too much.

Don't go by MSRP for Cyberpower, they can always be found much cheaper.

I paid $400 for my 2U PR1500LCDRT2U (1500VA/1kW, sinewave) last year, and thats including shipping which is never cheap for lead bricks inside a steel box.

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post #34 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

Multiple APC Smart-UPSs I have owned over the years, and replaced the batteries in to bring them back to life. Also https://www.google.com/search?q=apc+ups+dead+batteries

Not really a whole lot there other than 3-4 year old posts about units that didn't have battery bypass.
Any UPS without battery bypass will do the same thing, most units today have battery bypass. The 7 year old APC's under my desk do and they're just the powerstrip style.
There's a warning built into these units that let you know when it's time to replace the battery to avoid this issue. They chirp at you in a very annoying manner.

Looky here!
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post #35 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

So you mean that sinewave is good for avr but not for computer?

Computers use SMPS...so do a lot of AVR's. A stepped sinewave stresses input components.
A pure sinewave would be preferable when feeding a linear supply, but these are becomming less common.
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post #36 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

Not really a whole lot there other than 3-4 year old posts about units that didn't have battery bypass.
Any UPS without battery bypass will do the same thing, most units today have battery bypass. The 7 year old APC's under my desk do and they're just the powerstrip style.
There's a warning built into these units that let you know when it's time to replace the battery to avoid this issue. They chirp at you in a very annoying manner.
A few quotes from the first couple links of that google search:
Quote:
One thing to note with one of our units (Smart UPS) with a bad/discharged, or no battery is that when it turns off, and has no incoming power after a period of time the internal voltage of the unit will discharge. When this happens the unit is no longer be able to sample the internal voltage to actually turn on.

So, if you have a unit without a batt, or a totally discharged bad battery, and it has been off for more then 10-15 minutes without power, it will not start again until a good battery has been placed inside it.
Quote:
A Smart-UPS that has a dead battery or doesn’t have a battery will not turn on. If you’ve stored your unit for a few years and when you brought it back out it didn’t turn on, most likely the battery died but the unit is functional. If you removed the battery from your UPS or bought one without a battery, it also won’t turn on.

And they do chirp, but if for whatever reason you don't hear it (perhaps in a server closet) I still maintain that this is a

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post #37 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

A few quotes from the first couple links of that google search:
And they do chirp, but if for whatever reason you don't hear it (perhaps in a server closet) I still maintain that this is a

I read those pages. The units in question did not have battery bypass. APC isn't the only UPS vendor that sold UPS units without battery bypass. Most units from APC and other vendors do now.

I do a walk through on my local server room once a day to check for LED's that are the wrong color, and I listen for out of place noises. I have email+sms alerting setup for just about every device on my network in my remote DC's. Besides. the chirps start weeks before the battery is dead, if you miss it, you're doing something wrong.

Looky here!
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post #38 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I would not touch anything made by APC, as they have a huge design flaw. Specifically, if the batteries are 100% dead, the unit will act completely dead (won't power on, even when plugged in AC) - this can put you in a situation where the unit won't power back up after a power failure.

Switch it into bypass mode. This is normal behavior.
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post #39 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricN View Post

Switch it into bypass mode. This is normal behavior.

I would recommend the APC rack-mount series.

The APC website even stipulates that Smart-UPS (1000-3000 models) supports hot-swap, although I have never performed the replacement in hot-swap mode, I always shut it down and turn it off to replace batteries which I have done numerous times over the years. I have a number of 1500 and 2200 models at work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by APC website SUA1000RM2U Product Overview/Serviceability 
"Hot-swappable batteries Ensures clean, uninterrupted power to protected equipment while batteries are being replaced"

Just bought a Smart-UPS 1000 rack mount 2U model and nw mgt module for my home server, so it can email me various parameters of it's operation, battery condition, and I can setup the facility to power down my virtual servers and ESXi host when a power outage occurs.

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post #40 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricN View Post

Switch it into bypass mode. This is normal behavior.

How do you do that? I'm not aware of any such setting on my APC units. Also, that doesn't help if I am not home/the unit is in a remote location where I can't physically touch it.

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post #41 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

How do you do that? I'm not aware of any such setting on my APC units. Also, that doesn't help if I am not home/the unit is in a remote location where I can't physically touch it.

Then they're the units that don't have bypass.

Most automatically go into bypass mode now without any user intervention so it's not really anything you'd worry about. Some older ones were cutover manually. I think we finally replaced the last of our old UPS's that had a manual cutover.

Looky here!
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post #42 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceD View Post

I would recommend the APC rack-mount series.
The APC website even stipulates that Smart-UPS (1000-3000 models) supports hot-swap, although I have never performed the replacement in hot-swap mode, I always shut it down and turn it off to replace batteries which I have done numerous times over the years. I have a number of 1500 and 2200 models at work.
Just bought a Smart-UPS 1000 rack mount 2U model and nw mgt module for my home server, so it can email me various parameters of it's operation, battery condition, and I can setup the facility to power down my virtual servers and ESXi host when a power outage occurs.

We have an some Eaton UPS's that we've hot swapped batteries for maintenance. No issues.

Looky here!
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post #43 of 51 Old 12-07-2012, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

Then they're the units that don't have bypass.
Most automatically go into bypass mode now without any user intervention so it's not really anything you'd worry about. Some older ones were cutover manually. I think we finally replaced the last of our old UPS's that had a manual cutover.

What does APC call this feature? IMHO this is a critical feature for a future purchase. My newest APC UPS is about 5 years old, and the oldest I had was about 15, and none of them (all Smart-Ups) do not have this feature.

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post #44 of 51 Old 12-10-2012, 03:02 PM
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While researching about pure sine wave based UPS's it looks like the cost on these are way too high, most of the time its amost identical to the cost of the original equipment it is supposed to help prevent failure.
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post #45 of 51 Old 12-10-2012, 03:38 PM
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I lookied online and found some pretty good deals, I bought an APC SmartUPS 1000VA USB Rackmount 2U ( SUA1000RM2U), with a new refreshed battery for $263 and free shipping (search upsforless) that I received in it's original box and packaging. Also bought a used AP9617 ethernet communications card on ebay for $31. It's a pure sine-wave product.

Don't think you can find a better deal for a server battery backup solution, that you can actually control over your network with a web-based interface and control the server's controlled shutdown when the power goes out.

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post #46 of 51 Old 12-10-2012, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

What does APC call this feature? IMHO this is a critical feature for a future purchase. My newest APC UPS is about 5 years old, and the oldest I had was about 15, and none of them (all Smart-Ups) do not have this feature.

You're looking for auto bypass.

Looky here!
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post #47 of 51 Old 12-11-2012, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceD View Post

I lookied online and found some pretty good deals, I bought an APC SmartUPS 1000VA USB Rackmount 2U ( SUA1000RM2U), with a new refreshed battery for $263 and free shipping (search upsforless) that I received in it's original box and packaging. Also bought a used AP9617 ethernet communications card on ebay for $31. It's a pure sine-wave product.
Don't think you can find a better deal for a server battery backup solution, that you can actually control over your network with a web-based interface and control the server's controlled shutdown when the power goes out.

Now that is a good deal. I would buy multiple UPS's if i get for that cost, else whats the point of adding $$$ identical or near to the cost of the equipments its going to help from failures. If the UPS is pure sine wave and has higher output i can still add more equipments to it... which is still a good deal if the cost of the UPS is 500 dollars. But paying 400-500 for a lower output ups makes no sense.
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post #48 of 51 Old 12-17-2012, 02:44 PM
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Found a Pure Sine Wave UPS for under 150 dollars by APC.
450VA Smart-UPS Rack Mount 1U with Pure Sine Wave Output Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) 4 outlets and LCD Display
http://www.amazon.com/APC-SC450RM1U-450VA-Rackmount-System/dp/B0009JR5LO

Is this any good for an HTPC or even a media server? Will this UPS turn off the HTPC and media server gracefully after a few mins of the power failure?
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post #49 of 51 Old 12-17-2012, 05:30 PM
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Looks maybe OK for a desktop (probably not a server), but only has a serial port to communicate with the PC and instruct it to shutdown, not ideal.

Here is the APC webpage for that product APC SC450RM1U

Interface Port(s) DB-9 RS-232
battery runtime
  • Fully loaded = 6 min (280 Watts)
  • Half loaded = 19 min (140 Watts)

Here is where I bought mine
apc SmartUPS rackmount

With the ebay ethernet card I bought for it ($31), it will email me with any problems or interruptions, works great.

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post #50 of 51 Old 12-19-2012, 08:39 AM
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Here are a few questions about UPS sizing asked by a friend about an htpc or a server with 16+ drives, anyone care to offer an opinion?

Quote:
  • If the computer's PSU did not consume the entire PSU rating of 850W, although it consumed 400W, would it still require a UPS that's at least 850W or higher ?
  • Also, when the computer boots, does the PSU use the entire 850W at startup, then slowly come down?
  • If the UPS is rated lower than 850W (say 750W) in this scenario, will the UPS overload and not function?

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post #51 of 51 Old 12-19-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceD View Post

If the computer's PSU did not consume the entire PSU rating of 850W, although it consumed 400W, would it still require a UPS that's at least 850W or higher ?
Also, when the computer boots, does the PSU use the entire 850W at startup, then slowly come down?
If the UPS is rated lower than 850W (say 750W) in this scenario, will the UPS overload and not function?
  • The UPS only needs to be rated for the amount of power you will consume. So you only would only need a 400 W UPS. You would need to add a little to that to give you some headroom. Generally a larger UPS will have larger capacity batteries giving you more runtime.
  • NO.. THE computer power supply only outputs as much current as is demanded from it. You have to remember booting up takes more current to start up all those drives.
  • No way that server will use 850 watts, So your safe with a 750 Watt UPS. (Now what happens if you consume more than the UPS can handle might vary by UPS models)

Couple of examples.
My home theater is all on a Rotel (APC) RLC-1080. It is a 1440 VA /900 watt unit. At normal viewing conditions, I am at 460 watts. If I am up at reference levels, my unit will still pass power and filter, but I loose battery backup.

My server has a 750 w power supply( i'm actually changing it out tonight for a 600 watt) . I used to have a 550VA/330 watt UPS. I now have 1300VA UPS, because I wanted more runtime.
Sitting at idle I am at 101 watts. On boot up around 225 watts. So you can see why I got away with a 330 watt unit.

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