Rack Mounted UPS Needed - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Looking for suggestions for a Rack Mounted UPS that will give my server 5 to 8 minutes of battery life in case of a power hiccup. I usually leave my server on 24/7 and the occasional power bumps causes problems. Just curious if anybody has some first hand experience wand suggestions for a Rack Mountable UPS device. I have the MidAtlantic Slim 5 rack.

Thanks
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post #2 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 01:26 PM
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I got one from monoprice.com that seems to work well enough.
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post #3 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Did yours come with the mounting ears for the rack or is it a tray type?
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post #4 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 03:09 PM
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I would not touch anything made by APC, as they have a huge design flaw. Specifically, if the batteries are 100% dead, the unit will act completely dead (won't power on, even when plugged in AC) - this can put you in a situation where the unit won't power back up after a power failure.

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post #5 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Good Point!
That does seem like a major design flaw from APC.
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post #6 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 03:38 PM
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I am using the Eaton 5px in my rack. The main problem is that it is noisy so if you are using it in a room you will be watching movies in you should check out another model. I know for a fact that the CyberPower rack mount units are silent so long as the power draw is < 70% and that the unit is not overheated as the fan only ramps up under those conditions (as well as when battery power kicks in).

I chose the Eaton over the Cyberpower mainly because the Eaton was more efficient and I got it for a lower price.
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post #7 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 03:42 PM
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On a related topic, I too need a rack-mount UPS, however I need one which has a NEMA L5-30R on it so I can plug in my PDU.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #8 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Cyberpower sounds good since it's silent. It would need to be on the quiet side for it to work for me.
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post #9 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 05:00 PM
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Thanks for opening this thread. I was about to open a thread exactly for this. Hope you don't mind if i can post questions for the same in here?
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post #10 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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No not at all, as long as we are on the same subject thats what its for. smile.gif

I am leaning towards the Cyberpower that hdkhang suggested. It appears to come with the dog ears needed to mount it on my Slim 5 Middle Atlantic rack. it's only uses one rack space and since the only thing on it will be a Mac Mini and external drive it should be plenty of power. Also the now fan quiet operation is good also since it will be in the listening area.


http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/pp-series/PR750LCDRM1U.html
PR750LCDRM1U
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post #11 of 51 Old 12-03-2012, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

No not at all, as long as we are on the same subject thats what its for. smile.gif
I am leaning towards the Cyberpower that hdkhang suggested. It appears to come with the dog ears needed to mount it on my Slim 5 Middle Atlantic rack. it's only uses one rack space and since the only thing on it will be a Mac Mini and external drive it should be plenty of power. Also the now fan quiet operation is good also since it will be in the listening area.
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/pp-series/PR750LCDRM1U.html
PR750LCDRM1U

FYI, at least some of the Cyberpower units don't have adjustable sensitivity - I've got one (not a rack unit) I'm returning for that reason.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #12 of 51 Old 12-04-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

No not at all, as long as we are on the same subject thats what its for. smile.gif
I am leaning towards the Cyberpower that hdkhang suggested. It appears to come with the dog ears needed to mount it on my Slim 5 Middle Atlantic rack. it's only uses one rack space and since the only thing on it will be a Mac Mini and external drive it should be plenty of power. Also the now fan quiet operation is good also since it will be in the listening area.
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/pp-series/PR750LCDRM1U.html
PR750LCDRM1U

I think paying over 400 dollars for a 750VA / 560W UPS is way too much.
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post #13 of 51 Old 12-04-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

I think paying over 400 dollars for a 750VA / 560W UPS is way too much.

Not too sure about exact pricing and what not... but simply quoting the VA/Watt rating is not the entire story with a UPS. For instance, you can't compare pure sine wave vs simulated sine wave UPS units and call one expensive vs the other because they are not the same thing. Also, VA/Watt rating says nothing about run time, or number of outlets etc.
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post #14 of 51 Old 12-04-2012, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdkhang View Post

Not too sure about exact pricing and what not... but simply quoting the VA/Watt rating is not the entire story with a UPS. For instance, you can't compare pure sine wave vs simulated sine wave UPS units and call one expensive vs the other because they are not the same thing. Also, VA/Watt rating says nothing about run time, or number of outlets etc.

Good point.
Have you looked up Tripp Lite? For eg.. few of their models are selling similar technologies you quoted above with higher VA/WAtt rating for around 200 bucks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TrippLite-OMNI1500LCD-1500VA-825W-UPS-Battery-Back-Up-Rackmount-LCD-RJ45-12-/390500286467?pt=US_Uninterruptible_Power_Supplies&hash=item5aeba18003

This is one of them. If you look around you might end up similar or better ups's for reasonable price.

I am still exploring and am very new to this, hence please help me understand otherwise.
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post #15 of 51 Old 12-04-2012, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The price on that unit is much better, but not a pure sine wave from what I read. When you compare those that have a pure sine wave the price seems to go up.
I am not that familiar the the technicals on UPS but I remember a long time ago those that did not have a PSW did not always switch to battery when it should of,
and if it did it had a loud buzzing sound. Maybe things have changed since then.

If PSW is not really needed then it does seem to lower the price for these units. That Tripp Light look a bit plastic looking and I did not see anywhere how the mounting brackets are fitted. I have an equipment rack with nice gear, I would hate to put something cheap looking on it if I can, but I want to make sure the UPS will do what it is
suppose to when needed also.
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post #16 of 51 Old 12-04-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

The price on that unit is much better, but not a pure sine wave from what I read. When you compare those that have a pure sine wave the price seems to go up.
I am not that familiar the the technicals on UPS but I remember a long time ago those that did not have a PSW did not always switch to battery when it should of.
Maybe things have changed since then.
If PSW is not really needed then it does seem to lower the price for these units. That Tripp Light look a bit plastic looking and I did not see anywhere how the mounting
brackets are fitted. I have an equipment rack with nice gear, I would hate to put something cheap looking on it if I can, but I want to make sure the UPS will do what it is
suppose to when needed also.

I read somewhere, u should'nt use a sinewave based ups for a A/V receiver. Sinewave is good for a computer,but not very important.

Plus if you are planning to rack mount it, you cannot do wiht just one UPS. you will need more than one ups on your rack if you have multiple items loaded. For eg:- one UPS (at least 1000Watt) per amp. I have known people who have over 4-5 UPS's mounted on their rack cabinets. i think 200 bucks for a ups is ideal if you need more than one ups for multiple devices. If you look around ebay, there are multiple ups's primarily focusing on sinewave for less than 200 dollars, some are going over 2500Watts, this will help in attaching more devices per UPS.
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post #17 of 51 Old 12-04-2012, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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The UPS will be rack mounted but strictly being used with a Mac Mini Server and and external hard drive.
That is all that will be on the UPS.
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post #18 of 51 Old 12-05-2012, 09:52 AM
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I've just started shopping for a UPS lately, and I've noticed it's tough to find information for run-time at low loads. I think APC is the only manufacturer I've seen that pubishes run-time versus power draw curves, and even those only seem to be available for certain series. My hope is to find something inexpensive that can keep my HTPC, HDHomeRun Prime, and networking gear running for about an hour. At ~40W for the HTPC, 7W for the Prime, 10W for wireless router, and probably 5W each for DSL modem and ethernet switches, that rolls up to under 80W. Maybe I'd get wild and throw my server on there too, which would push me up to about 130W.

Most UPS only seem to have published values for run-time at full load and half load. I could linearly extrapolate run-time based on the % rated load my 80-130W turns out to be, but is that really valid? I have a suspicion the battery discharge curves are nonlinear (maybe APC's curves are applicable to other manufacturers, since sealed lead-acid gel cell batteries seem to be used by pretty much everyone). Or is there is a good de-rating rule-of-thumb to apply to Amp-Hour rating of the battery? E.g. if I need approximately 1A-h @ 120V, that would equate to (10A-h @ 12V) * X (where X is a de-rating factor that accounts for power factor, transformer losses, etc)?

Maybe I'm silly for even targeting an hour of run-time, when most outages I've had fall in 2 categories -- < a few minutes or > several hours (very few in between)
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post #19 of 51 Old 12-05-2012, 12:39 PM
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What are the equipments that normally people use with the UPS in their rack, and why?
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post #20 of 51 Old 12-05-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

What are the equipments that normally people use with the UPS in their rack, and why?

While my equipment is not in a rack most of my electronic gear at the house is on battery backup. You drop a couple grand on TV/AVR/PC and not spend 100 bucks to protect it from power issues? Math just doesn't add up. I got most of mine from Circuit City going out of business sale (which is APC) but have been slowly upgrading as they go bad.

-RobNY
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post #21 of 51 Old 12-05-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlniec View Post

I've just started shopping for a UPS lately, and I've noticed it's tough to find information for run-time at low loads. I think APC is the only manufacturer I've seen that pubishes run-time versus power draw curves, and even those only seem to be available for certain series. My hope is to find something inexpensive that can keep my HTPC, HDHomeRun Prime, and networking gear running for about an hour. At ~40W for the HTPC, 7W for the Prime, 10W for wireless router, and probably 5W each for DSL modem and ethernet switches, that rolls up to under 80W. Maybe I'd get wild and throw my server on there too, which would push me up to about 130W.
Most UPS only seem to have published values for run-time at full load and half load. I could linearly extrapolate run-time based on the % rated load my 80-130W turns out to be, but is that really valid? I have a suspicion the battery discharge curves are nonlinear (maybe APC's curves are applicable to other manufacturers, since sealed lead-acid gel cell batteries seem to be used by pretty much everyone). Or is there is a good de-rating rule-of-thumb to apply to Amp-Hour rating of the battery? E.g. if I need approximately 1A-h @ 120V, that would equate to (10A-h @ 12V) * X (where X is a de-rating factor that accounts for power factor, transformer losses, etc)?
Maybe I'm silly for even targeting an hour of run-time, when most outages I've had fall in 2 categories -- < a few minutes or > several hours (very few in between)

From another hobby I know that these rechargeable batteries do NOT like to be drawn all the way down. The "Rule of thumb" is to figure on 1/2 the stated capacity
so a 50 AH battery will drive a 10 amp load for 2 1/2 hours. tops. Yes you could draw it lower, but you'll significantly limit how many times the battery will recharge.
too far down and it may not recharge again.

Seems there are a few AVS'rs getting their feet wet on UPS. Getting something that would allow the server to shut down gracefully seems to be a common refrain.

FWIW, I've had a Rackmount Surge Protector made by Tripplite for years, and have come to trust their products.
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post #22 of 51 Old 12-05-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomandbeth View Post

From another hobby I know that these rechargeable batteries do NOT like to be drawn all the way down. The "Rule of thumb" is to figure on 1/2 the stated capacity
so a 50 AH battery will drive a 10 amp load for 2 1/2 hours. tops. Yes you could draw it lower, but you'll significantly limit how many times the battery will recharge.
too far down and it may not recharge again.
Seems there are a few AVS'rs getting their feet wet on UPS. Getting something that would allow the server to shut down gracefully seems to be a common refrain.
FWIW, I've had a Rackmount Surge Protector made by Tripplite for years, and have come to trust their products.

Thanks for the info. Tripp Lite has been getting lot of good reviews on various forums, and hardcore enthusiasts.
So based on the math you posted above.. a 850W PSU sitting in a computer that draws around 400W for me most of the time, what Wattage/VA the ideal UPS?
I am looking for UPS's that gracefully shuts down the components within 5-10 mins. Nothing more. Dont want the UPS to act as an alternative source of current to keep the gadget working after electricty is out.
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post #23 of 51 Old 12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
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I'm not 100% certain on the specifics of UPS tech. From what I read (but have not confirmed), pure sine wave is probably a good idea if you are going for highly efficient PSUs (e.g. Gold rated or above). For me, the price was something I could live with, and since it is protecting my servers, I don't care to go cheaper tech. If two items are similar tech and have similar reputation, then I'm going to go with the lower cost solution.

Second point of consideration is software for the UPS as this can make or break the point of the exercise if you can't get the software to run on the hardware to trigger a graceful shutdown etc.

Another point is when thinking about brands, there are various levels of UPS, so just because one brand gets good reviews for their higher end units, does not necessarily translate into their lower end units.
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post #24 of 51 Old 12-05-2012, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

Thanks for the info. Tripp Lite has been getting lot of good reviews on various forums, and hardcore enthusiasts.
So based on the math you posted above.. a 850W PSU sitting in a computer that draws around 400W for me most of the time, what Wattage/VA the ideal UPS?
I am looking for UPS's that gracefully shuts down the components within 5-10 mins. Nothing more. Dont want the UPS to act as an alternative source of current to keep the gadget working after electricty is out.

Heh, I was hoping to get the same info out of this thread, hopefully posted by one of the EEs here.
Without that, I'd be guessing at 850 to 1K and seeing if the Server makes it all the way to a safe shutdown.

My other hobby (Astronomy) uses rechargeable batteries, but doesn't do the 12V up to 120VAC, and then a computer using 120VAC and converting it back to 12V.
Makes more sense to me to regulate the batteries (that are likely 13.4 volts) for 12V and 5V for the Computer.
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post #25 of 51 Old 12-06-2012, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdkhang View Post

I'm not 100% certain on the specifics of UPS tech. From what I read (but have not confirmed), pure sine wave is probably a good idea if you are going for highly efficient PSUs (e.g. Gold rated or above). For me, the price was something I could live with, and since it is protecting my servers, I don't care to go cheaper tech. If two items are similar tech and have similar reputation, then I'm going to go with the lower cost solution.
Second point of consideration is software for the UPS as this can make or break the point of the exercise if you can't get the software to run on the hardware to trigger a graceful shutdown etc.
Another point is when thinking about brands, there are various levels of UPS, so just because one brand gets good reviews for their higher end units, does not necessarily translate into their lower end units.

If thats the case, i guess the ebay link i posted for tripplite contains sine wave technology. and its half the cost of ups that was earlier mentioned.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TrippLite-OMNI1500LCD-1500VA-825W-UPS-Battery-Back-Up-Rackmount-LCD-RJ45-12-/390500286467?pt=US_Uninterruptible_Power_Supplies&hash=item5aeba18003
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post #26 of 51 Old 12-06-2012, 05:54 AM
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I read somewhere, u should'nt use a sinewave based ups for a A/V receiver. Sinewave is good for a computer,but not very important.

You got that backwards.
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post #27 of 51 Old 12-06-2012, 01:45 PM
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You got that backwards.

So you mean that sinewave is good for avr but not for computer?
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post #28 of 51 Old 12-06-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

If thats the case, i guess the ebay link i posted for tripplite contains sine wave technology. and its half the cost of ups that was earlier mentioned.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TrippLite-OMNI1500LCD-1500VA-825W-UPS-Battery-Back-Up-Rackmount-LCD-RJ45-12-/390500286467?pt=US_Uninterruptible_Power_Supplies&hash=item5aeba18003

It's PWM sinewave... not pure sinewave. So it's still stepped/simulated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

So you mean that sinewave is good for avr but not for computer?

You want pure sinewave for sensitive equipment. e.g. AVRs, PC's can get away with less so many people have been using the cheaper stepped/simulated sine wave UPS models for PC protection. This does not mean that stepped sine wave is better for PC, it just means that the PC power supply can get away with it. Pure sinewave is always better than stepped (why it costs more). That being said, as I mentioned earlier, higher efficiency power supplies might "require" pure sinewave to work at it's best (can't recall exactly why so don't quote me on that).
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post #29 of 51 Old 12-06-2012, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I would not touch anything made by APC, as they have a huge design flaw. Specifically, if the batteries are 100% dead, the unit will act completely dead (won't power on, even when plugged in AC) - this can put you in a situation where the unit won't power back up after a power failure.

Do you know which specific APC UPS models do this ? I know the Smart-UPS models from APC that I use at work in my server rack don't seem to work that way, and they have a card slot for an optional network mgmt 10/100 ethernet card.
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post #30 of 51 Old 12-06-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I would not touch anything made by APC, as they have a huge design flaw. Specifically, if the batteries are 100% dead, the unit will act completely dead (won't power on, even when plugged in AC) - this can put you in a situation where the unit won't power back up after a power failure.

Would you care to back this up with some documentation? That's a pretty serious allegation to make.

Looky here!
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