Ceton Customer Service is terrible - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 12-05-2012, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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So I bought a ceton cable card tuner for my HTPC. Installed it and got it to work. Kind of. Picture quality is not as good as my cablebox, video stutters, words stutter when scrolling across the screen, slow channel changing, missed recordings, etc. Biggest problems I had was that something involved with the network bridge portion of the software or driver is knocking out my network connection. Sometimes once a week sometimes more. So when it goes out I have to run the windows diagnostic to repair it and it comes up with a "network bridge does not have a valid IP". Windows repairs it and its good for a few days.
I deal with it for a couple months and then finally decide to file a ticket with ceton. They respond that they want some data, I send it, then they offer the generic "try these beta drivers" response that they probably send to everyone. More times goes by. I try the beta drivers. Same thing. Then they want more data. I send that. More times goes by. Finally (after 4 weeks) they say they want to set up a remote session. They work with me to set up a Saturday appointment (nice I thought) as I work during their 8 to 3 weekday window. Our Saturday apt come and there I sit. Waiting, waiting. No remote request. They forgot. Now I'm pissed...

Send another ticket reply telling them to send me a phone number to call because I want to speak with someone about being blown off. I get a reply that I should respond to the email tickets because ceton doesn't have phones! Really? Who's stupid enough to believe that? A company can operate without phones! Ya right. I rely that I was stood up and need to speak with someone. Send me a phone number so I can call on my time.

Someone calls and leaves me a message. Says again that they don't have phones and I need to reply by email. Doesn't leave a callback number or anyway for me to respond. He calls back a couple days later. Same thing. "Reply to the ticket or we will have to close it". No phone number again.

Finally I break down and reply by email with a short summery of how unhappy I am with being blown off for an appointment and how I just want to speak with someone about it. Im not really in the to mood to type out 10 paragraphs about how Im displeased I am. Just wanted to talk with a real person. Get another email from someone higher up the ladder. He claims same BS that they don't have phones. Claims they have support equal to Microsoft and Google (ha!). Doesn't offer me any contact number to respond to.

So here I am after 5 week of ceton "trouble shooting". Zero progress made on my problem. Throughout the whole process I really dont think half the people responding to my tickets even knew what my problem was. At no point did anyone ask me about anything network related. And Im dealing with a company that does give a crap what their customer have to say. I understand not wanting to take customer calls but if one wants to speak with someone about their service or product you should be available to talk with them. Common sense.

Im done dealing with them. I'll put this thing in the trash and try my luck on a HDHR. Hopefully they would talk to me if I requested it.

Since ceton gave me to avenue to express my displeasure with their service I had to post it for all to see. This could have been handled with a 10 minute phone call. Suck it up, apologize, and move on. Simple as that.

So if you dont mind buying a product thats really not ready for the masses yet and you are ok not being able to get support for weeks then take your chances purchasing a ceton product.
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post #2 of 73 Old 12-05-2012, 04:44 PM
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What components does your system consist of? CPU, GPU, motherboard, ect. How old is your operating install, and how many other programs have you installed on it?
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post #3 of 73 Old 12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
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  1. The Ceton InfiniTV 4, like all digital tuners, simply passes the video/audio untouched* to the application you are using. It does not manipulate the video quality nor the audio quality in any fashion. If the picture quality is not as good as your cable box it is due to the application, decoders or your video card drivers. Stuttering is usually a result of the decoders or video drivers. So you are upset with a company for not providing support for a problem that is most likely not related to their product and over which they have no control.
  2. Lot's of small companies to not do tech support over the phone because they simply do not have the manpower. Ceton is far from being alone in this.

The only exception to this is that DRM is applied to copy protected channels but that will not cause your problem. Diverge is on the right track with his question.
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post #4 of 73 Old 12-05-2012, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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The ticket was filled for the network issue. The rest don't matter if my network keeps going down. We never got that far...

Fresh w7 install with a few new components and the ceton card. All current drivers and codecs.

Its possible (highly doubt it) it has nothing to do with the ceton software. Odd it was fine before installing the ceton stuff. Again we never got far enough to find out in 5 weeks...
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post #5 of 73 Old 12-05-2012, 06:52 PM
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Since you say your network bridge keeps having problems, start with not using any network bridges. Use the tuner normally, not in networked bridge mode. If that works, then move back to figuring why your network bridge isn't working. Once you can say that networking bridging is the cause, then you can move on to why. Maybe it's an incompatibility with the NIC you're bridging it to, chipset, motherboard ect. I don't know if you tried this, or even if you're bridging the tuner (I assume it, since it mentions it in your original post).... but this is basic troubleshooting 101 type stuff.

Also, if you aren't referring to bridging the tuner, and are doing a wireless bridge between routers... then that's your problem. Not saying you are, just trying to cover all bases here.
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post #6 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 04:47 AM
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Ceton is a relatively small company and simply doesn't have the manpower for live phone tech support. Keep in mind that they just released the Echo last week so they're probably overwhelmed with support requests due to issues with the Echo. I've currently got a support ticket in for my Echo and it takes 2-3 days for them to respond each time I reply to their e-mails.

The best thing you can do is provide Ceton with as much information as possible. Due to the lag time between responses, it helps them if they have every available detail to evaluate the problem. If they have to ask for additional information it just drags it out even longer. I'd provide a detailed list of your hardware and software and anything else specific to your situation.
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post #7 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 05:23 AM
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My experience was the exact opposite. Maybe they are overloaded with the Echo launch. When I had problems with my InfiniTV, they were very prompt in responding to me, even set up a time for them to call me to walk me through a few things. Eventually, they sent me a replacement without even requiring a credit card deposit.
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post #8 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Diverge View Post

Since you say your network bridge keeps having problems, start with not using any network bridges. Use the tuner normally, not in networked bridge mode. If that works, then move back to figuring why your network bridge isn't working. Once you can say that networking bridging is the cause, then you can move on to why. Maybe it's an incompatibility with the NIC you're bridging it to, chipset, motherboard ect. I don't know if you tried this, or even if you're bridging the tuner (I assume it, since it mentions it in your original post).... but this is basic troubleshooting 101 type stuff.
Also, if you aren't referring to bridging the tuner, and are doing a wireless bridge between routers... then that's your problem. Not saying you are, just trying to cover all bases here.

All good advice. Same things I would have expected to hear from ceton at some point in a 5 week span. Not a word about network anything ever came from their end. The bridge was only from the ceton install. I had no network bridge before that.

I appreciate the trouble shooting advice but I'm past that point. Not interested in spending hundreds of dollars and having to spend my own time and resources to get it to work smooth.

Being busy is not an excuse to blow off your customer appointments and then not listen to what they have to say about it. It just poor business decisions and poor customer service. If I missed an appointment with one of my customer and they wanted to talk about it I be happy to give them my cell phone number and handle it professionally. As if every ceton employee doesnt have a cell phone in their pocket?
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post #9 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 06:57 AM
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I had nothing but problems with the network bridge. I think the problem may hve been my router, but either way, I finally gave up on using it. Ceton tried really hard to fix my problems with it, but ultimately it just wasn't reliable. Using it just in my HTPC though, it's been near flawless.
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post #10 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 07:19 AM
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I'll claim ignorance and assume that the network bridge function has to do with tuner sharing. I never saw the need to use the network feature with the InfiniTV4 because that means any other PC that I'm assigning a tuner to is now dependent on the state of the PC containing the InfiniTV4. This is why I use a HDHomeRun Prime for tuner sharing and two InfiniTV4's in my dedicated HTPC. It's also the reason why I stopped using extenders. The InfiniTV4 is a fantastic product, but making another PC dependent on it just complicates things too much for my tastes. I prefer a product that's specifically designed for this capability.

Ironically, I'm in the beta testing program for the Echo. I'm looking for a solution that would eliminate the need for a dedicated HTPC in order to watch live TV and have the ability to stream movies from my server. I've got a SFF HTPC in the spare bedroom that only gets occasional use. If the Echo lives up to its promise and eventually does what I want I can replace this HTPC with the Echo, making things far less complex for my family.
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post #11 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

I'll claim ignorance and assume that the network bridge function has to do with tuner sharing. I never saw the need to use the network feature with the InfiniTV4 because that means any other PC that I'm assigning a tuner to is now dependent on the state of the PC containing the InfiniTV4. This is why I use a HDHomeRun Prime for tuner sharing and two InfiniTV4's in my dedicated HTPC. It's also the reason why I stopped using extenders. The InfiniTV4 is a fantastic product, but making another PC dependent on it just complicates things too much for my tastes. I prefer a product that's specifically designed for this capability.
Ironically, I'm in the beta testing program for the Echo. I'm looking for a solution that would eliminate the need for a dedicated HTPC in order to watch live TV and have the ability to stream movies from my server. I've got a SFF HTPC in the spare bedroom that only gets occasional use. If the Echo lives up to its promise and eventually does what I want I can replace this HTPC with the Echo, making things far less complex for my family.

I did it because when I bought my InfiniTV, the HDHR Prime was still a long way from being released. I wanted TV in my office and didn't want to shell out $400 (I bought early!) for another InfiniTV or $250+ for an XBox360 when I could, theoretically just share a tuner to my PC there. It just wasn't reliable though and I continually had to reset up my tuners on each machine (like every few days).

If anyone ever made an extender that played ripped movies (in original formats) with full audio support, I'd move my HTPC into the closet and just put extenders everywhere. As is, I think I'm just going to slap another tiny HTPC in my wife's art studio and grab an HDHR Prime the next time I see them for $99 on SlickDeals. Won't solve the CopyOnce problem, but I guess I'll just have to live with that.
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post #12 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

I'll claim ignorance and assume that the network bridge function has to do with tuner sharing. I never saw the need to use the network feature with the InfiniTV4 because that means any other PC that I'm assigning a tuner to is now dependent on the state of the PC containing the InfiniTV4. This is why I use a HDHomeRun Prime for tuner sharing and two InfiniTV4's in my dedicated HTPC. It's also the reason why I stopped using extenders. The InfiniTV4 is a fantastic product, but making another PC dependent on it just complicates things too much for my tastes. I prefer a product that's specifically designed for this capability.
Ironically, I'm in the beta testing program for the Echo. I'm looking for a solution that would eliminate the need for a dedicated HTPC in order to watch live TV and have the ability to stream movies from my server. I've got a SFF HTPC in the spare bedroom that only gets occasional use. If the Echo lives up to its promise and eventually does what I want I can replace this HTPC with the Echo, making things far less complex for my family.

Viewing of BR mkv rips in my Family Room is dependent on the state of the PC in my Office and the quality of my network so I don't know what the difference is here. Viewing Live/Recorded TV is highly dependent on the state of my network too as my HDHR Prime is located in the office right at the cable drop with RG-6 and one splitter to go to the modem and the HDHR Prime. The cable signal strength and quality is junk in the Family Room but my network is good so I'm going with that.

BTW, are you experiencing any network problems with your Echo?

My network is robust and I don't have any problems at all.

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post #13 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 08:04 AM
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I would guess, and this is just my guess that if you had stutter issues and it was somewhat related to yur network, that HDHR/HDHRP won't solve them.

I agree that blowing off an appointment is unacceptable, but at least they were willing to scheudle it on a Saturday, when most companies are closed.

What kind of network do you have?

Do you have issues running Live TV on the PC that the tuner is physically in?

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #14 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post

I would guess, and this is just my guess that if you had stutter issues and it was somewhat related to yur network, that HDHR/HDHRP won't solve them.
I agree that blowing off an appointment is unacceptable, but at least they were willing to scheudle it on a Saturday, when most companies are closed.
What kind of network do you have?
Do you have issues running Live TV on the PC that the tuner is physically in?

I am. The network wont stay up!
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post #15 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Babbitt 1080P View Post

I am. The network wont stay up!

Is it a wireless network?

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #16 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it a wireless network?

I have a 17 TB server and 2 htpc's. All are hardwired. I stream full resolution blue ray rips with HD audio without issues. It shouldn't be this hard to watch TV. I have 3 other tv cards and all of them have been simple and easy to install. All worked like they should.

I never got the network sharing to work so I stopped trying. I even tried to uninstall the ceton drivers and reinstall without the network stuff hoping that would make the bridge go away. It didn't and the problem continued.

Bottom line is that they didn't want to deal with a customer that they pissed on. They hid behind their "We don't have phones here"
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post #17 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 10:58 AM
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How is an issue with keeping your network stable ceton's problem?

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post #18 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Babbitt 1080P View Post

So I bought a ceton cable card tuner for my HTPC. Installed it and got it to work. Kind of. Picture quality is not as good as my cablebox, video stutters, words stutter when scrolling across the screen, slow channel changing, missed recordings, etc. Biggest problems I had was that something involved with the network bridge portion of the software or driver is knocking out my network connection. Sometimes once a week sometimes more. So when it goes out I have to run the windows diagnostic to repair it and it comes up with a "network bridge does not have a valid IP". Windows repairs it and its good for a few days.
I deal with it for a couple months and then finally decide to file a ticket with ceton. They respond that they want some data, I send it, then they offer the generic "try these beta drivers" response that they probably send to everyone. More times goes by. I try the beta drivers. Same thing. Then they want more data. I send that. More times goes by. Finally (after 4 weeks) they say they want to set up a remote session. They work with me to set up a Saturday appointment (nice I thought) as I work during their 8 to 3 weekday window. Our Saturday apt come and there I sit. Waiting, waiting. No remote request. They forgot. Now I'm pissed...
Send another ticket reply telling them to send me a phone number to call because I want to speak with someone about being blown off. I get a reply that I should respond to the email tickets because ceton doesn't have phones! Really? Who's stupid enough to believe that? A company can operate without phones! Ya right. I rely that I was stood up and need to speak with someone. Send me a phone number so I can call on my time.
Someone calls and leaves me a message. Says again that they don't have phones and I need to reply by email. Doesn't leave a callback number or anyway for me to respond. He calls back a couple days later. Same thing. "Reply to the ticket or we will have to close it". No phone number again.
Finally I break down and reply by email with a short summery of how unhappy I am with being blown off for an appointment and how I just want to speak with someone about it. Im not really in the to mood to type out 10 paragraphs about how Im displeased I am. Just wanted to talk with a real person. Get another email from someone higher up the ladder. He claims same BS that they don't have phones. Claims they have support equal to Microsoft and Google (ha!). Doesn't offer me any contact number to respond to.
So here I am after 5 week of ceton "trouble shooting". Zero progress made on my problem. Throughout the whole process I really dont think half the people responding to my tickets even knew what my problem was. At no point did anyone ask me about anything network related. And Im dealing with a company that does give a crap what their customer have to say. I understand not wanting to take customer calls but if one wants to speak with someone about their service or product you should be available to talk with them. Common sense.
Im done dealing with them. I'll put this thing in the trash and try my luck on a HDHR. Hopefully they would talk to me if I requested it.
Since ceton gave me to avenue to express my displeasure with their service I had to post it for all to see. This could have been handled with a 10 minute phone call. Suck it up, apologize, and move on. Simple as that.
So if you dont mind buying a product thats really not ready for the masses yet and you are ok not being able to get support for weeks then take your chances purchasing a ceton product.

First, I want to apologize for the missed appointment. Missed appointments should NOT happen, and I am working to understand why this happened, and prevent it from happening again. I found what I believe this ticket to be. I see that we had an appointment scheduled for October 27th at 2PM Pacific, which we did in fact miss. We sent a message at 5:18PM Pacific apologizing for this, and offering to reschedule (you did not accept our offer to reschedule). Per your request, the ticket was escalated to the support manager, who made two attempts to call you, and followed up via the ticket. You were very clearly unhappy with this response. Our Chief Marketing Officer then replied to you, however you were also unhappy with his response.

I feel that criticizing Ceton for taking 4-5 weeks to troubleshoot this is unfair at best. In every single case, our responses to you were within 1 business day (Monday-Saturday) of your message, and in many cases were the same day. While the ticket was several months old, the vast majority of the time was spent waiting for you - at one point, we waited over 3 months (from June 15, 2012 until September 25, 2012) for you to collect the requested data.

Regarding the actual issue, the act of bridging is 100% handled by Windows and your network card driver. All the InfiniTV Network Tuner software does is the same thing as selecting 2 network connections, right click, and bridge. This sounds to me like either a bug in your network card drivers (some network cards, especially cheap ones, have really bad drivers) or an issue with firewall/internet security software. Have you tried upgrading your network drivers, and also removing any Firewall/security software you have installed? Also, is this a standard wired Ethernet network? If the network bridge does not have a valid IP, that is outside something that Ceton's software can cause, and is most likely a network card driver bug. Alternatively, this could be an issue with your DHCP server (router). If I am understanding your latest response, you stated that you had network stability issues even without the InfiniTV drivers installed. If the InfiniTV drivers are not installed and the problem persists, there is absolutely no way this could be an issue with our product.

As others have mentioned, the suggestions of disabling network tuners as a test is a good one, and something we typically ask customers to do during troubleshooting. In this case, we simply had not been given the opportunity to do much troubleshooting on this ticket, and did not get to that point.

Regarding phone support, in our experience, phone support is actually less productive for both parties than email support. Often we have logs that we have to spend quite some time reviewing. Rather than making customers sit on the phone while we do so, we follow up with them once the review is complete. This is common in this market. To the best of my knowledge SiliconDust does not offer phone support - at least I've never heard of it being mentioned, and I see no phone number on their website.

One point you raised here - we actually do not have a phone system. It's just generally been unnecessary - so much that we actually discussed getting one about a year ago when we moved offices, and the engineers generally said not to waste the money, as they would refuse to plug in their phones if we bought them. This is not uncommon - when I was at Microsoft, I also observed that many engineers simply viewed their desk phone as a waste of desk space and unplugged it and put it in storage. While we do have a handful of dedicated lines (CableCARD pairing line, and some outgoing lines) we are not a phone-oriented company.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #19 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 12:50 PM
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Though I agree it is more efficient to offer web and email support, and because of this I am reluctant to bring it up, but doesn't the FCC mandate toll free support to force the cable company to allow self installs?

"Your operator may decline your request for self-installation if your equipment manufacturer or vendor does not provide you with instructions on how to install a CableCARD and offer a toll-free telephone number for product support. " FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(1) {FCC Cable Card - Know Your Rights Page}



From what that says, I don't believe they require a company to provide phone support but your cable company may require a professional install if they don't provide it.
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post #20 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 01:05 PM
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Though I agree it is more efficient to offer web and email support, and because of this I am reluctant to bring it up, but doesn't the FCC mandate toll free support to force the cable company to allow self installs?
"Your operator may decline your request for self-installation if your equipment manufacturer or vendor does not provide you with instructions on how to install a CableCARD and offer a toll-free telephone number for product support. " FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(1) {FCC Cable Card - Know Your Rights Page}
From what that says, I don't believe they require a company to provide phone support but your cable company may require a professional install if they don't provide it.
And we do offer a toll-free line, for CableCARD installs (only) - info is at http://cetoncorp.com/infinitv_support/cablecard-activation/ - requests for other support on that number will be directed to open a ticket.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #21 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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First, I want to apologize for the missed appointment. Missed appointments should NOT happen, and I am working to understand why this happened, and prevent it from happening again. I found what I believe this ticket to be. I see that we had an appointment scheduled for October 27th at 2PM Pacific, which we did in fact miss. We sent a message at 5:18PM Pacific apologizing for this, and offering to reschedule (you did not accept our offer to reschedule). Per your request, the ticket was escalated to the support manager, who made two attempts to call you, and followed up via the ticket. You were very clearly unhappy with this response. Our Chief Marketing Officer then replied to you, however you were also unhappy with his response.
I feel that criticizing Ceton for taking 4-5 weeks to troubleshoot this is unfair at best. In every single case, our responses to you were within 1 business day (Monday-Saturday) of your message, and in many cases were the same day. While the ticket was several months old, the vast majority of the time was spent waiting for you - at one point, we waited over 3 months (from June 15, 2012 until September 25, 2012) for you to collect the requested data.
Regarding the actual issue, the act of bridging is 100% handled by Windows and your network card driver. All the InfiniTV Network Tuner software does is the same thing as selecting 2 network connections, right click, and bridge. This sounds to me like either a bug in your network card drivers (some network cards, especially cheap ones, have really bad drivers) or an issue with firewall/internet security software. Have you tried upgrading your network drivers, and also removing any Firewall/security software you have installed? Also, is this a standard wired Ethernet network? If the network bridge does not have a valid IP, that is outside something that Ceton's software can cause, and is most likely a network card driver bug. Alternatively, this could be an issue with your DHCP server (router). If I am understanding your latest response, you stated that you had network stability issues even without the InfiniTV drivers installed. If the InfiniTV drivers are not installed and the problem persists, there is absolutely no way this could be an issue with our product.
As others have mentioned, the suggestions of disabling network tuners as a test is a good one, and something we typically ask customers to do during troubleshooting. In this case, we simply had not been given the opportunity to do much troubleshooting on this ticket, and did not get to that point.
Regarding phone support, in our experience, phone support is actually less productive for both parties than email support. Often we have logs that we have to spend quite some time reviewing. Rather than making customers sit on the phone while we do so, we follow up with them once the review is complete. This is common in this market. To the best of my knowledge SiliconDust does not offer phone support - at least I've never heard of it being mentioned, and I see no phone number on their website.
One point you raised here - we actually do not have a phone system. It's just generally been unnecessary - so much that we actually discussed getting one about a year ago when we moved offices, and the engineers generally said not to waste the money, as they would refuse to plug in their phones if we bought them. This is not uncommon - when I was at Microsoft, I also observed that many engineers simply viewed their desk phone as a waste of desk space and unplugged it and put it in storage. While we do have a handful of dedicated lines (CableCARD pairing line, and some outgoing lines) we are not a phone-oriented company.


If you notice the responses I got from service they really didn't offer anything other than try these beta drivers and download the current drivers for the rest of the system. I did all that befroe I even installed the card it was a fresh install of windows. If you notice I didn't say it took 4 months. I didn't count the time I caused the delay for months. Once we decide to get started on trouble shooting I sent info as fast as I could. I can't drop my life to get logs for you. And some times it takes 3-4 days for the network to go down. Maybe 5 weeks is a bit much. Even if its 2-3 weeks. We didnt make any progress or even begin to get into what was going on!!! I felt that I was getting the run around.

As for the bridging Im not a network expert but I don't think I had a network bridge before your software was installed. Now all the sudden I have a network bridge. My network was 100% stable before your card and is currently perfectly fine for the other 3 PC's I have in the house. Only this one kick out. Seems odd. I'm using a separate intel network card on a hardwired connection. I have a router and a switch installed and it all worked perfect for years.

As for troubleshooting there was none. Thats part of the problem. Look back at all the response from ceton. Never once a word about anything network related. I totally uninstalled the drivers and reinstalled without the network box checked. Should be better than disabling network sharing right?

I gave you props for the Saturday appointment. I'm not sure I would brag about it when you actually didn't even show.

I dont have a problem with not having phone support. I don't have any problems with your support plans at all. I have a problem with the way I was handle and the lack of taking responsibility for your missed appointment. I made it clear that I didn't want to spend the time to type all this stuff out. A simple 10 minute phone conversation with one of your manager would have put an end to this right way and we'd be back to trying to fix it. I hate typing and this is way more work than I wanted to do. I could have expr3essed my thought on the phone but nobody would give me a number to call. Someone should have used common sense and gave me their cell number if you don't have phones. Be clear. Im not looking for phone support. I was looking for someone to complain to about being blown off for an appointment. I think common sense tell you that this is a special situation that needs special exceptions. Not the big screw you that I got.

So now I ended up have to spend even more time it type all this crap out and waste more of my time. I just thought people should know how you hide from your customers. It was your mistake not mine.

It not about the card, my network, my pc, or your software. Its about how you treat your customers and what you do when things go bad. Thats what set good companies apart from bad ones. I would have told you this on the phone but nobody wanted to hear it. This is the only way I can express it now.
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post #22 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 02:22 PM
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So what is a network card and a network tuner. I'm thinking about purchasing this and I want to make sure there will be nos surprises when its my time to get this up and running.
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post #23 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 02:22 PM
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So what is a network card and a network tuner. I'm thinking about purchasing this and I want to make sure there will be nos surprises when its my time to get this up and running.
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post #24 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbitt 1080P View Post

If you notice the responses I got from service they really didn't offer anything other than try these beta drivers and download the current drivers for the rest of the system. I did all that befroe I even installed the card it was a fresh install of windows. If you notice I didn't say it took 4 months. I didn't count the time I caused the delay for months. Once we decide to get started on trouble shooting I sent info as fast as I could. I can't drop my life to get logs for you. And some times it takes 3-4 days for the network to go down. Maybe 5 weeks is a bit much. Even if its 2-3 weeks. We didnt make any progress or even begin to get into what was going on!!! I felt that I was getting the run around.
As for the bridging Im not a network expert but I don't think I had a network bridge before your software was installed. Now all the sudden I have a network bridge. My network was 100% stable before your card and is currently perfectly fine for the other 3 PC's I have in the house. Only this one kick out. Seems odd. I'm using a separate intel network card on a hardwired connection. I have a router and a switch installed and it all worked perfect for years.
As for troubleshooting there was none. Thats part of the problem. Look back at all the response from ceton. Never once a word about anything network related. I totally uninstalled the drivers and reinstalled without the network box checked. Should be better than disabling network sharing right?
I gave you props for the Saturday appointment. I'm not sure I would brag about it when you actually didn't even show.
I dont have a problem with not having phone support. I don't have any problems with your support plans at all. I have a problem with the way I was handle and the lack of taking responsibility for your missed appointment. I made it clear that I didn't want to spend the time to type all this stuff out. A simple 10 minute phone conversation with one of your manager would have put an end to this right way and we'd be back to trying to fix it. I hate typing and this is way more work than I wanted to do. I could have expr3essed my thought on the phone but nobody would give me a number to call. Someone should have used common sense and gave me their cell number if you don't have phones. Be clear. Im not looking for phone support. I was looking for someone to complain to about being blown off for an appointment. I think common sense tell you that this is a special situation that needs special exceptions. Not the big screw you that I got.
So now I ended up have to spend even more time it type all this crap out and waste more of my time. I just thought people should know how you hide from your customers. It was your mistake not mine.
It not about the card, my network, my pc, or your software. Its about how you treat your customers and what you do when things go bad. Thats what set good companies apart from bad ones. I would have told you this on the phone but nobody wanted to hear it. This is the only way I can express it now.


I've compiled a summary of the dates and ticket responses, and they are below:
Code:
Date Responder       Summary
6/9/2012        Customer        Ticket opened
6/11/2012       Ceton   Initial troubleshooting steps provided
6/11/2012       Customer        Customer responded that initial problem was no longer happening, but wanted to troubleshoot another issue
6/12/2012       Ceton   Provided troubleshooting suggestions.  Asked for more data
6/14/2012       Customer        Switched problem being troubleshot to network
6/15/2012       Ceton   Requested additional troubleshooting data
6/25/2012       Customer        Stated that he had not yet had time to collect data and would do so, soon
9/25/2012       Customer        Provided troubleshooting data requested on 6/15/12
9/26/2012       Ceton   Recommended that customer update to beta software
10/1/2012       Customer        Stated that beta software did not resolve issue
10/2/2012       Ceton   Requested updated diagnostic capture
10/2/2012       Customer        Provided data, but wasn't the data we requested
10/3/2012       Ceton   Clarified data request and requested it again
10/3/2012       Customer        Customer had question about data collection
10/3/2012       Ceton   Answered customer's data collection question
10/3/2012       Customer        Provided requested data when system was working properly
10/4/2012       Ceton   Requested data when system was not working
10/10/2012      Customer        Customer indicated he was unable to collect data when it was not working
10/10/2012      Ceton   Recommended some hotfixes and power management changes
10/15/2012      Customer        Customer indicated hotfixes had not helped
10/15/2012      Ceton   Ceton requested a live troubleshooting session with customer
10/15/2012      Customer        Customer stated that the time suggested would not work and asked what it was needed for
10/15/2012      Ceton   Ceton indicated what we wanted to examine
10/16/2012      Customer        Customer indicated he could not accommodate a session during the week
10/16/2012      Ceton   Offered Saturday troubleshooting session
10/17/2012      Customer        Indicated he would be out of town, and requested session for 10/27
10/17/2012      Ceton   Confirmed session for 10/27
10/27/2012      Customer        Sent message indicating it was 10 minutes past time for session, and had not heard from us
10/27/2012      Ceton   Sent message acknowledging that we had missed session, and offered to reschedule
10/28/2012      Customer        Customer requested to speak to manager.  Did not address offer to reschedule session.
10/29/2012      Ceton   Message indicating that ticket was escalated to support manager
10/31/2012      Ceton   Support manager sent message to customer indicating that we had left him two voicemails trying to reach him, and asked him to update ticket with his availability
11/1/2012       Customer        Customer sent message indicated he was unhappy with support received
11/2/2012       Ceton   Chief Marketing Officer replied, apologizing for missed support session, and offered to reschedule
11/2/2012       Customer        Customer sent another message indicated he was unhappy with support received

Looking over the above, I would say that only about 2 weeks of actual troubleshooting occurred in this ticket, and the rest of the time was spent with Ceton waiting for your response. When we missed the appointment, we offered the same day to reschedule the troubleshooting session, which you never took us up on.

We screwed up by missing the live troubleshooting session - I'm perfectly willing to admit that, and we are taking steps to avoid it in the future. That said, I really feel that, at that point, you no longer wanted your problem fixed, as much as you were out for blood - and I base that on you not taking up our offer to reschedule the session, nor providing the support manager a good time that you could be reached at.

Home users typically do not use network bridges, which is likely why you did not see these issues before the bridge was created - that said, the bridge is a function of windows (and your network card drivers) - not the InfiniTV.

After reviewing your ticket, aside from not missing the support session we had committed to, the only thing that I feel could have been done better was to suggest that you upgrade your network card drivers.

Once again, I want to apologize for Ceton missing the live support session. If you would like, I will be happy to schedule a live support session with you and work to continue troubleshooting the issue.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #25 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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If you can honestly look about at that ticket and say that you actually tried to fix my networking problems then your idea of good service is different than mine. Offering beta drivers was the only thing you asked me to try.

I have 4 other PC's in the house that dont have a network bridge. And I know my HTPC didnt before I installed your drivers. Do you really honestly believe it has nothing to do with your software? Seems like an easy out to me.

For the last time I had a fresh windows install with all the current driver. INCULDING the network driver. Its a good quality Intel NIC. Its not some cheap onboard POS.

Your logs miss some important info. Once you replied that you missed the appointment I respond that I wanted to speak with a manager and you should forward me a contact number. I dont think thats out of line considering that I planned my day to be around for your appointment and you don't show. Sometime later I get a voice mail from john. He leaves a message but never a return number. I reply again be emails (only choice I have) stating I want to speak with a manager and I need a contact number. Again voicemail from john but no return numbers.

I said it already I wanted to bitch to a manager and then get one with it. I was annoy and pissed but it would have been a quick conversation. At that point with you blowing me off I should have to play by your rules anymore. If I want to call and complain about crappy service I should be able to. But your right now. After all this I'm not interested in spending more time with ceton to fix something that should work better out of the box.

Not letting me call you is just your way of avoiding your mistake. It's unprofessional.

I not going to do this back and forth anymore. I'm done with this post. Since I wasn't allowed to express my opinions verbally I wanted to let people know how you operate. This same post will be put up on the other theater forums I visit.
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post #26 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 03:39 PM
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Like I said earlier, how is an issue with somebody's network ceton's problem? But they are willing to go the extra mile to help out with this. Try that with other big name companies. Support like that would require a CC# first. I see the op was demanding to talk to the manager. From my vantage point everybody in ceton is empowered and there really isn't a heirarchy in place. It is pretty hard to run a small company with multiple layers of managers.

I have had nothing but top notch CS from ceton in my dealings with them but I have my hardware working well already.

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post #27 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I see the op was demanding to talk to the manager.

And apparently, they gave him the opportunity... twice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbitt 1080P View Post

... Sometime later I get a voice mail from john. ... Again voicemail from john but no return numbers.

Not many companies will even make the attempt to contact you. I understand your frustration but I have to say that it looks to me as if Ceton made real attempts to satisfy you; more than a lot of companies with whom I've dealt. I'm not a Ceton customer (yet) but I don't see this as making me think twice about becoming one.

You still have the option to sell your Ceton (and can probably get close to what you paid for it) and purchase the HDHomeRun Prime (on sale at Newegg right now).
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post #28 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 03:53 PM
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If you can honestly look about at that ticket and say that you actually tried to fix my networking problems then your idea of good service is different than mine. Offering beta drivers was the only thing you asked me to try.
We also requested that you install some hotfixes, and change some other settings. We also asked for some data to collected. When nothing stood out as a cause, we arranged the live session with the hope that we would find a cause when we had an interactive session up. Keep in mind the only days that had actual troubleshooting were from 6/14-6/15, 9/25-10/4, and 10/10. That is very different than 5 solid weeks of troubleshooting, as you initially painted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbitt 1080P View Post

I have 4 other PC's in the house that dont have a network bridge. And I know my HTPC didnt before I installed your drivers. Do you really honestly believe it has nothing to do with your software? Seems like an easy out to me.
For the last time I had a fresh windows install with all the current driver. INCULDING the network driver. Its a good quality Intel NIC. Its not some cheap onboard POS.
As I stated earlier today, all the InfiniTV software does is activate the bridging function built into Windows - which can also be manually activated, as I mentioned earlier. I'm willing to state that the catalyst for the issue was our software, but will state that our software was highly unlikely to be the cause. Regarding the network card drivers, where did the drivers you installed come from? Windows Update? I have seen WU offer 2 year old drivers as "current" before. Did you also reinstall your firewall/antivirus product? It could potentially cause this issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbitt 1080P View Post

Your logs miss some important info. Once you replied that you missed the appointment I respond that I wanted to speak with a manager and you should forward me a contact number. I dont think thats out of line considering that I planned my day to be around for your appointment and you don't show. Sometime later I get a voice mail from john. He leaves a message but never a return number. I reply again be emails (only choice I have) stating I want to speak with a manager and I need a contact number. Again voicemail from john but no return numbers.
I said it already I wanted to bitch to a manager and then get one with it. I was annoy and pissed but it would have been a quick conversation. At that point with you blowing me off I should have to play by your rules anymore. If I want to call and complain about crappy service I should be able to. But your right now. After all this I'm not interested in spending more time with ceton to fix something that should work better out of the box.
Not letting me call you is just your way of avoiding your mistake. It's unprofessional.
I not going to do this back and forth anymore. I'm done with this post. Since I wasn't allowed to express my opinions verbally I wanted to let people know how you operate. This same post will be put up on the other theater forums I visit.

When you asked to speak to a manager, we arranged to have a manager call you, and he attempted to do so, then asked for a good time when he could not reach you. I truly believe you are splitting hairs if you are complaining that the manager attempted to call you rather than providing you a phone number to call him.

Regarding "Sometime later I get a voice mail from john. He leaves a message but never a return number. I reply again be emails (only choice I have) stating I want to speak with a manager and I need a contact number. Again voicemail from john but no return numbers." I have double-checked the ticket, and there is not a message from you sent in between the voicemails. The ticket goes from you asking to speak to a manager, to a message that the manager will call you, to a message from the manager stating that he has tried to reach you twice, but been unable to do so, and asking when you are available.

If you truly still believe that we were unprofessional, I will ask your permission to post your entire support ticket, complete with dates and times. I will redact your name, contact information, and any other sensative information, that way others can decide for themselves.
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post #29 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 05:29 PM
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I am wondering why eric is even bothering with this guy. After reading the first post I could tell the guy was just out to flame (and no I am not in tech support) but have to deal with a lot of tech support. I work with companies that will not let people call in, they call you with a blocked number and that is fine. If I was ceton I would have told you to just piss off.
Edit- and its always funny when one of the ceton guys is in the live chat of one of the engadget (i think) podcasts and corrects them wink.gif
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post #30 of 73 Old 12-06-2012, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TheTinkerer View Post

I am wondering why eric is even bothering with this guy. After reading the first post I could tell the guy was just out to flame (and no I am not in tech support) but have to deal with a lot of tech support. I work with companies that will not let people call in, they call you with a blocked number and that is fine. If I was ceton I would have told you to just piss off.
Edit- and its always funny when one of the ceton guys is in the live chat of one of the engadget (i think) podcasts and corrects them wink.gif

To be perfectly honest, I would rather someone that stumble across this thread see that we made every reasonable attempt to resolve the issue, rather than seeing just an upset customer rant. I am 99.9% certain that if I posted the entire support ticket, the vast majority of AVS readers would agree with me.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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