WMC with Ceton...HD is not HD - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TooMuchOzone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I hoping someone here can offer advise, or recommend somewhere I can get some advice! I just put together a new HTPC. I am using Windows Media Center with a Ceton InfinTV4 pcie card. I have Time Warner Cable and am using the tuning adapter and cablecard from them. So basically everything works great, but for live tv, my HD channels aren't HD, they just look like ok SD with a fairly noisy image. The aspect ratio is correct, but the quality of the HD just isn't right. Can anyone offer any advice or direction? Thanks in advance for any help!!


**primary components**

Win7 64bit
Ceton Infintv4 pcie
ASRock H77m LGA 1155
Intel i3 3220 with Intel HD graphics
8g ram

Tuning Adapter and Cable card from TWC

connected to samsung 52 lcd 1080p tv via HDMI
TooMuchOzone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 10:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lockdown571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 58
The infinitv4 just passes the stream along to WMC. Are you sure your htpc is set to the correct resolution? Are you on the HD channels? Are you sure it's not just the same crappy video all cable providers pass off as HD?

Did you have a cable box to compare with?
lockdown571 is online now  
post #3 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TooMuchOzone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
thanks for replying! Yes the output is correct and I am viewing HD channels for sure. I do have a cablebox to compare with with so I can easily see the differences. In some other forums people were changing the codecs WMC uses, but that was just for slight quality increases it seemed. I shoot and edit video for a living so I am probably more sensitive to what is HD and what is not..so that makes it even worst for me id think! Hmmm...
TooMuchOzone is offline  
post #4 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 01:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
Andy_Steb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 987
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 140
Is The TV and HTPC set up with 1:1 pixel mapping? also in WMC there needs to be some adjustments made it eliminate the over-scan that it creates.

You can't really change codecs for live TV unless using WIn 7 x86, So not that many people are doing it.

Andy_Steb is online now  
post #5 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 02:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lockdown571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Whatever you do don't start messing with my codecs for live TV unless you're certain you know what you're doing. You could wind up breaking WMC. The default codec should be fine. As Andy said, it might be a setting on your TV. Depending on your video card, you might need to turn off overscan compensation on your PC as well. ATI has it on by default.
lockdown571 is online now  
post #6 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TooMuchOzone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Not sure about the pixel mapping and overscan settings. i did have to play around with some video settings when I set everything up...so ill dive back in and check everything out. My processor has on board video so thats what I am working with. Ill play around with these suggestions first chance I get and see what I can figure out! Thanks for your help!
TooMuchOzone is offline  
post #7 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 03:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
Andy_Steb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 987
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 140
Start with the TV and get overscan turned off.

With all the combinations of video cards and TVs its hard to tell you how to do it. On my Sony the setting is called "Full Pixel". I think Samsung calls it "Screen Fit". On some TVs you need to put it into PC mode.

Next step is on the video card. There should be a scaling setting to push the image back out to the edges. On an ATI card its easy, set it on 0% underscan. Intel should have something similar.

Third step is in Media Center. WMC will apply it's own overscanning if you tell it you have a flat panel. So make sure you have it set for TV.
Now WMC is assuming your TV is overscanning. So the GUI will be pushed in from the edges. There is a registry fix for this.

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Media Center\Settings\MCE.PerUserSettings.
"marginLeft"=dword:00000000
"marginTop"=dword:00000000
"marginRight"=dword:00000000
"marginBottom"=dword:00000000
"marginSaved"=dword:00000001


Here is a couple more common registry edits for Media Center

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SOFTWARE\\Debug\\ehPresenter.dll]
"NominalRange"=dword:2
(Sets dynamic range to 16-235)

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SOFTWARE\\Debug\\ehPresenter.dll]
"NominalRange"=dword:1
(Sets dynamic range to 0-255)

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Debug\ehPresenter.dll]
"BoundByNativeSize"=dword:0
(enable a more efficient scaling path in the AV pipeline, Some report a sharper image)

Also make sure you turn off Dynamic Contrast in your drivers

Andy_Steb is online now  
post #8 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 06:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Diverge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 294
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
You shouldn't have to change anything in WMC to get HD channels to show in HD. Are you sure you're not looking at SD channels?

Some cable boxes automatically map the HD channels to the SD #'s. Example, I know cablevison boxes can do this; ex; channel 2 would automatically get mapped to the HD channel (which is 702).
Diverge is offline  
post #9 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 07:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Andy_Steb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 987
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 140
SD channels will be 4:3

Check WMC zoom is set for normal aspect level

Andy_Steb is online now  
post #10 of 23 Old 12-25-2012, 09:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
erickotz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Can you elaborate on the quality issues that you see? The InfiniTV will tune the exact same channels as the STB.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
erickotz is offline  
post #11 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 06:51 AM
Senior Member
 
Babbitt 1080P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
The picture quality on mine is not as good as my cable box or my other tv card. Their good at blaming everything but their product.
Babbitt 1080P is offline  
post #12 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 07:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gtgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbitt 1080P View Post

The picture quality on mine is not as good as my cable box or my other tv card. Their good at blaming everything but their product.

If you could understood how the product works you would understand that unless the picture is breaking up or is pixelating due to reception problems the Ceton has zero effect on picture quality. We are not dealing with analog channels here. Just pure 1s and 0s.. a pure digital stream. The Ceton has nothing to do with playback it is a capture device and by design captures and writes to disk exactly what s on the wire..

Things like codecs, color space mismatches, not displaying 1 to 1, wrong levels, color gamut and grayscale issues all are common elements on PCs driving digital displays. Graphic card post processing lots of things make PCs tricky to get video right. It ain't the Ceton. Ceton problems are tuner availability and robust of capture and lock to digital signal.

You may have a picture quality issue for dozens of reasons, unless the picture is breaking up the Ceton is not one of those reasons.

Don't compare Over The Air picture quality capture with an ATSC card to Cable. Cable is almost always compressed creating aritfacts. I have 2 HD Homerun ATSC (not Primes) tuners and when the same content is broadcast over the air I will almost always watch the over the air presentation instead of Comcast via the Ceton.

Just another blank signature.
gtgray is offline  
post #13 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 07:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Karyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 14
For some Samsung TVs you need to use the "edit name" function to change the HDMI input to be "PC" or "DVI PC" or some such thing. That will change the settings to eliminate the overscan. It's a goofy system which also eliminates many of the picture quality settings, requiring that you then make some adjustments through your video card's software.
Karyk is offline  
post #14 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TooMuchOzone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I still have not had a chance to try some of these fixes, but yes...I am pretty sure it is not the ceton. I suspect it is either some of the things suggested here or that the encoder wmc is using is simply not as good as what I am used to from time warner. I am getting a bit more grain and quite a few more artifacts, so it points me to the encoder too. Actually, is there a way I can view the raw video feed before it hits wmc?

Thanks again everybody for your help!!
TooMuchOzone is offline  
post #15 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 08:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Karyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 14
One more change, besides the Edit Name feature of some Samsungs--there is a feature in WMC to change the type of display (e.g. CRT, Flat Panel, etc.) Having an incorrect setting there can affect things too.
Karyk is offline  
post #16 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 08:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lockdown571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchOzone View Post

I still have not had a chance to try some of these fixes, but yes...I am pretty sure it is not the ceton. I suspect it is either some of the things suggested here or that the encoder wmc is using is simply not as good as what I am used to from time warner. I am getting a bit more grain and quite a few more artifacts, so it points me to the encoder too. Actually, is there a way I can view the raw video feed before it hits wmc?
Thanks again everybody for your help!!

I'm not sure how a decoder would introduce grain and artifacts. That sounds like it came from the video source itself. It's possible your time warner box had some post-processing built-in like digital noise reduction. What kind of artifacts exactly?

Also, have you checked out all your Intel video card settings? Are all the post-processing options disabled?
lockdown571 is online now  
post #17 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 08:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
Andy_Steb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 987
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 140
I'm going to throw one more thing out there. Post-processing

With Intel graphics my TV automatically goes into pc mode no matter what video input I use. When my TV is in PC mode all the TV's built in post processing is turned off.
When I use my ATI the TV is in video mode. (as for as my TVs concern I gave a cable box hooked to it)

One more thing to add is most TVs will store different video settings for every input.

Andy_Steb is online now  
post #18 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 09:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
Andy_Steb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 987
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

If you could understood how the product works you would understand that unless the picture is breaking up or is pixelating due to reception problems the Ceton has zero effect on picture quality. We are not dealing with analog channels here. Just pure 1s and 0s.. a pure digital stream. The Ceton has nothing to do with playback it is a capture device and by design captures and writes to disk exactly what s on the wire..
Things like codecs, color space mismatches, not displaying 1 to 1, wrong levels, color gamut and grayscale issues all are common elements on PCs driving digital displays. Graphic card post processing lots of things make PCs tricky to get video right. It ain't the Ceton. Ceton problems are tuner availability and robust of capture and lock to digital signal.
You may have a picture quality issue for dozens of reasons, unless the picture is breaking up the Ceton is not one of those reasons.
Don't compare Over The Air picture quality capture with an ATSC card to Cable. Cable is almost always compressed creating aritfacts. I have 2 HD Homerun ATSC (not Primes) tuners and when the same content is broadcast over the air I will almost always watch the over the air presentation instead of Comcast via the Ceton.

I totally agree

Andy_Steb is online now  
post #19 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 09:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Karyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

If you could understood how the product works you would understand that unless the picture is breaking up or is pixelating due to reception problems the Ceton has zero effect on picture quality.

And a further comment on that. By adding Centon to the title of this thread, a lot of people won't read it if they don't own a Centon product. So the title limits the responses, which isn't good.
Karyk is offline  
post #20 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 11:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
sgbroimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: CT Shore
Posts: 602
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I have a similar setup to yours. And a year ago I was also disappointed in the PQ first time I fired up the Inf4 tuner. Be sure to go into the WMC settings and do a proper picture calibration. Also tune in a TV program and right click then go to "zoom" and be sure you are set to Setting 1 (not 2,3 or 4). Finally, right click on your PC's screen and go into the Intel graphics properties and be sure the setting are all ok there. It took me a bit, but I would say the PQ is now comporable to my cable box, perhaps a tad better. Finally look at the TV's settings for the input your PC is using. There may be some that need to be changed such a noise reduction etc.
sgbroimp is offline  
post #21 of 23 Old 12-26-2012, 11:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
ncarty97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 742
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Are you sure you are on the right channel? Most cable Co dvrs will alter the channel number. So for instance Fox on my Co is channel 4 on their dvr. If you have an sd TV,it puts out the Sd channel. If you have an HDTV, it actually transmits 704.

On windows media center it does not make that change for you. You actually have to go to channel 704
ncarty97 is offline  
post #22 of 23 Old 12-27-2012, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TooMuchOzone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks everybody for you comments and help.I went through all the suggestions here and It seems I have everything set up properly. Tv settings are correct... underscan setting is fine...pixel mapping checks out...channels are correct nother issue I was having that I didn't mention was some interlace issues, but I seemed to be able to rectify that with a film mode setting check box in my video settings. Some of the artifacts I mentioned still pop up from time to time but rarely. They just look like encoding issues with I think most of what I am seeing is simply the compression. I think the Scientific Atlanta box I had from time warner just did a much better job. I will keep exploring though so if anyone else reads this please fill free to keep adding suggestions if you got them! Also one user mentioned that I put Ceton in the title and if this isn't a Ceton issue I may get more responses so maybe Ill try that at some point.

Thanks so
TooMuchOzone is offline  
post #23 of 23 Old 12-27-2012, 05:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gtgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchOzone View Post

Thanks everybody for you comments and help.I went through all the suggestions here and It seems I have everything set up properly. Tv settings are correct... underscan setting is fine...pixel mapping checks out...channels are correct nother issue I was having that I didn't mention was some interlace issues, but I seemed to be able to rectify that with a film mode setting check box in my video settings. Some of the artifacts I mentioned still pop up from time to time but rarely. They just look like encoding issues with I think most of what I am seeing is simply the compression. I think the Scientific Atlanta box I had from time warner just did a much better job. I will keep exploring though so if anyone else reads this please fill free to keep adding suggestions if you got them! Also one user mentioned that I put Ceton in the title and if this isn't a Ceton issue I may get more responses so maybe Ill try that at some point.
Thanks so

Are you using the stock codecs?
Have you turned of any post processing in your GPU?
What colorspace are you sending the TV?
Are you using Video or PC Levels?
Can you identify if this is a problem on both 1080i and 720P content?

Just another blank signature.
gtgray is offline  
Reply Home Theater Computers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off