Unhappy with Intel HD4000. ATI Card suggestions? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 82 Old 01-25-2013, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I''ve spent about a week now with my new HTPC and had originally decided to try the onboard HD4000 graphics. Unfortunately I'm increasingly unhappy with them because of the following 2 problems.

First, 23.976. I'm actually getting 23.972 which doesn't seem so horrible, but it is noticeably stuttery. It's not the frame drop every 4 minutes or so that's the problem, but rather it just looks like the frame rate is too slow that my eyes can see the individual frames and it's just not smooth. It's very hard to explain, just sort of jerky. I've started using 24 for 23.976 video and even with a frame repeat every 50 seconds or so it is a lot smoother to my eye.

I might be able to live with that but I've tried to create a 50p custom resolution for 25fps PAL videos I have and without fail, at some point a few minutes into the video the display will complete pixelate. I can't even read the madVR CTRL+J stats. Perhaps I am just doing it wrong. Can anyone post instructions on what values I should be using for this?

Alternatively, I may be willing to go back to an ATI card. I had a 5570 in my old HTPC. At 23.976 I only had a frame drop every 2.5 hours or so and 50p worked fine. I need a card less than 8.7" long without a power connector at the end of the card that is capable of the higher madVR settings. Any suggestions for a 7750, 7850, or even 7950? (I do some gaming but nothing too serious).

[edit]
I'd be open to an nVidia card too. I just have more experience with ATI.
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post #2 of 82 Old 01-26-2013, 09:31 AM
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I'm very happy with my AMD 7750 in my HTPC, though my particular Sapphire model has been discontinued. The 7750 has the best 23.976 that I've seen, giving me a near perfect Blu-ray and 3D Blu-ray experience. The Cat 13.1 drivers are working fine for me in W7-64. I haven't tried anything at 50 Hz, nor MadVR. My 7750 does not require an additional PCIE power connector, but 78xx and 79xx models do.

The jerkiness of your Intel HD 4000 graphics at 23.972 sounds odd. You shouldn't be able to tell a difference between 23.972 and 24.0 other than the dropped frame every 4-5 minutes vs. the duplicated frame every 42 seconds. I'd almost suspect that something else is going wrong with your playback if it really is jerky. I stopped using the HD 4000 because of the inexact 23.976, and because I was having some lip sync issues with it. The 7750 has as good lip sync as the source BD, which sometimes isn't perfect.

Bazinga!

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post #3 of 82 Old 01-26-2013, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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What refresh rate exactly are you getting with the 7750 for 23.976?.

I don't understand the problem either, but I've verified I can see it at that refresh rate using madVR, EVR-CP, and even VLC. I cannot imagine what else is wrong with it.

My only concern with the 7750 is that I've read it won't do SD Video (60fps) with madVR without dropping frames. Of course, I've read that for the HD4000 too and I can get it to play fine if I use software decoding in madVR off loading some of the GPU load I guess.
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post #4 of 82 Old 01-26-2013, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMGNYC View Post

My only concern with the 7750 is that I've read it won't do SD Video (60fps) with madVR without dropping frames.

That's true. First let's look at the madVR levels (my own, of course):

MadVR Levels



where

- BL = Bilinear
- BC = Bicubic
- AR = anti-ringing filter
- LL = scaling in linear light

Level 2 is the current default setting. Level 4 will give you the best PQ (a lot better than Level 3 in a larger display). The PQ difference between Level 4 and Level 5 is very little (or sometimes Level 5 is worth because of more ringing), but Level 5 requires lot more GPU processing power. So you can safely ignore it. Recently madVR introduced "DXVA2" image up/downscaling. If you select this, madVR will use the driver's own algorithm for image up/downscaling and chroma upscaling as well. If there is no image scaling, madVR will use an arbitrary chroma upscaling algorithm you selected in the madVR settings.

DXVA2 Scaling Algorithms

Simple tests show that



where HD = 1280x720, FHD = Full HD = 1920x1080, ES = edge sharpening filter, S = sharpening filter. AMD's DXVA2 algorithms are the most primitive one, Blinear, for all three. NVIDIA image upscaling algorithm differs depending on the source content's resolutions: for SD, it's Lanczos with some edge sharpening filter; for HD and full HD contents, it's Bilinear with with some edge sharpening filter. AMD's and NVIDIA's Chroma Bilinear upscaling is slightly different from madVR's.

Intel's are the best among the three. Chroma upscaling is close to Bicubic 50, image upscaling is Lanczos+AR, image downscaling is a bit difficult to identify, it looks more like Catmull-Rom+AR+unsharp mask than Catmull-Rom+AR+LL. If you are going to use Intel HD Graphics (in any SNB / IVB desktop CPU), madVR DXVA2 is the best choice. When there is no image scaling (mainly full HD contents in a full HD display), you have to choose an chroma upscaling algorithm and it depends on the number of EUs (Execution Units). I recommend

- Intel HD Graphics 4000: Bicubic 75+AR
- The others: Bicubic 75

Average rendering time in HD (1366x768) and Full HD (1920x1080) displays



Rendering time must be < 1/24 ~ 41 ms for films and < 1/60 ~ 16 ms for videos for smooth playback.

F = film
V = video
i = interlaced
p = progressive

All films are progressive (DVD and BD). Video can be interlaced (NTSC broadcast and DVD) or progressive (recent videos). HD 7750 is good for all films except for 4K UHD films at madVR Level 4. HD 7770 (roughly 1.5 times better than HD 7750) is good for all sources except for 4K UHD videos at madVR Level 4.

Average rendering time in 4K UHD (3840x2160) and 8K UHD (7680x4320) displays



You will need HD 7970 to play back all source formats at madVR Level 4 in a 4K UHD display.

BTW Intel HD Graphics 4000 can play back all source formats (including 4K UHD films/videos) at madVR DXVA2 (roughly equivalent to madVR Level 3) in HD/FHD displays. Unfortunately it has a couple of problems such as non-support for full RGB output and imprecise 23Hz. AMD A10-5800K is a better choice for madVR Level 3.
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post #5 of 82 Old 01-26-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMGNYC View Post

What refresh rate exactly are you getting with the 7750 for 23.976?...
They're always doing some clock spread spectrum so your instantaneous refresh rate is jumping around a little bit. But averaging and rounding it to just 3 digits after the decimal, I'm getting 23.976 with the 7750. For reference, my 5770 got 23.975, and my 6450 got 23.977, and now my 7750 is hitting the sweet spot.

Bazinga!

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post #6 of 82 Old 01-26-2013, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

That's true. First madVR levels (my own, of course):



....

What great info! smile.gif

I'd actually never tried jinc (level 4) so decided to give it a shot on a h.264 480p 23.976 fps file. It really is noticeably better even on my relatively small (by today's standards) 55 "FHD 1920x1080 display. I can't really imagine a DVD rip looking better. HD4000 failed miserably using level 4 settings on a 720p 23.976 fps file.

It will likely be a good few years before I'd be interested in 4K so I'm not concerned about that at the moment, nor HD 1366x768.

Although I don't really have any SD video at the moment you never know. So, as much as I'd like the simplicity of the smaller 7750s without seperate power cables I wouldn't want to bump into it's limits. So, that means a 7770 at least which seems to be just at the limit of what I want to do.

My question is, will a 7850 give me significant more headroom or is it moot compared to a 7770? I've found a handfuly of 7770s and 7850s less than 8" which should fit my case.
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post #7 of 82 Old 01-27-2013, 12:47 AM
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Intel GPU is more like an appliance: it uses application-specific ICs to perform various video post-processing tasks instead of programmable ICs as in AMD / NVIDIA, so the performance is great if its ASIC are used (madVR DXVA2) but poor if programmable IC (Execution Units) is used (madVR's own algorithms).

HD 7850



Rendering time is much shorter, but that's it. It consumes a lot more power. So, unless you are interested in Level 5 (improvement over Lever 4 is little), go with 7770 (7750 for films).
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post #8 of 82 Old 01-27-2013, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Good advice Renethx. So, I'm thinking of this card. It seems well reviewed and is the right size with a good location for the power connection for my case. Does anyone have experience with this card?

ASUS HD7770-1GD5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121663
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post #9 of 82 Old 01-27-2013, 10:56 AM
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Check also Sapphire Vapor-X (dual fan). PCIE power connector is located on the side edge, however.
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post #10 of 82 Old 01-27-2013, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Check also Sapphire Vapor-X (dual fan). PCIE power connector is located on the side edge, however.

Thanks. I've had a Sapphire (5570) and was very happy with it but this one is too long. I'll lose 2 hard drive bays that are currently in use.

The only other ones I found that would fit are:

PowerColor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131477

MSI
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127687

The MSI might be a bit tight. It's 7.6 plus the power cable connector so it would barely fit in the 8.7" space I have.

[EDIT]

I found this one too. It looks good

Sapphire 11201-02-20G Radeon HD 7770 GHZ Ed. OC Video Card
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2042279&CatId=7387
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post #11 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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So, I thought I'd report back.

I ended up choosing this card:

ASUS HD7770-1GD5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121663

It's an easy fit being somewhat small and is very quiet and cool.

I am absolutely thrilled with the performance compared to the HD4000 graphics. There's no visible stuttering, frame drops, frame repeats, or video corruption and it handles 25fps PAL superbly. The timings are much better than HD4000 so that I am only getting frame drop or repeats in the days rather than minutes or seconds. Some examples.

23.976: actual 23.97609
29.970: actual 29.92021
30.000: actual 29.99997
50.000: actual 50.00017
59.940: actual 59.94037

Here are the rendering times using madVR Jinc3+AR for chroma and image upscaling to 1080

1080 6.31 ms
480 8.34 ms
720 11.54 ms
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post #12 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 10:05 AM
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Nice card choice.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #13 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMGNYC View Post

So, I thought I'd report back.

I ended up choosing this card:

ASUS HD7770-1GD5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121663

It's an easy fit being somewhat small and is very quiet and cool.

I am absolutely thrilled with the performance compared to the HD4000 graphics. There's no visible stuttering, frame drops, frame repeats, or video corruption and it handles 25fps PAL superbly. The timings are much better than HD4000 so that I am only getting frame drop or repeats in the days rather than minutes or seconds. Some examples.

23.976: actual 23.97609
29.970: actual 29.92021
30.000: actual 29.99997
50.000: actual 50.00017
59.940: actual 59.94037
Very precise report although I suspect you fat-fingered the "2" here?
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post #14 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 12:36 PM
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I am using madVR 85.8. But when I click MadVR edit from options-filters during a movie playing with mpc-hc I do not see a choice of jinc3 or jinc4, just jinc. .Renethx is jinc3 and jinc4 your concept or is it a user choice? If it is something I can select how would I go about selecting jinc3 or jinc4?
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post #15 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Hornfeck View Post

Very precise report although I suspect you fat-fingered the "2" here?

Indeed I did, should be 29.97021
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post #16 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmoderndesign View Post

I am using madVR 85.8. But when I click MadVR edit from options-filters during a movie playing with mpc-hc I do not see a choice of jinc3 or jinc4, just jinc. .Renethx is jinc3 and jinc4 your concept or is it a user choice? If it is something I can select how would I go about selecting jinc3 or jinc4?

jinc3 or jinc4 mean Jinc with 3 taps or 4 taps. AR means with Anti-Ringing on. So, as long as you've got jinc you've got it.

I've got to say too that I cannot imagine anything upscaling DVD quality rips better.
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post #17 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmoderndesign View Post

I am using madVR 85.8. But when I click MadVR edit from options-filters during a movie playing with mpc-hc I do not see a choice of jinc3 or jinc4, just jinc. .Renethx is jinc3 and jinc4 your concept or is it a user choice? If it is something I can select how would I go about selecting jinc3 or jinc4?

I think that is the number of "taps" but am not exactly sure.

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post #18 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 01:14 PM
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Thanks. Now I understand the Jinc 3, 4 thing is taps. And what is LL with catmull-ro?.

I agree about the quality of DVDs with jinc, although I am getting some cadence problems with a few DVD isos which may be a DVD authoring problem. I am still trying to figure out what is going on.
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post #19 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 01:24 PM
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Linear Light checkbox?

I'm at work right now and don't have the madVR settings pages memorized but rather am looking at this page. Seems to be some pretty good information at that site.

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post #20 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 01:27 PM
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The current optimal option for downscaling is Catmull-Rom with Anti-Ringing and Linear-Light scaling. Don't use Linear Light for upscaling, its no good there smile.gif

I kinda question renethx's madVR levels though (at least level 5), Jinc4 only costs power and adds ringing (even with AR some artifacts remain), it doesn't really help picture quality. Even madshi himself says that Jinc3+AR is all you need.
So the whole Level 5 is not really needed, and shouldn't drive people to more expensive GPUs.

And while looking at the table, something that would be interesting to consider is playback of something like a 1440x1080i60 video (used in some parts of the world for broadcasts). While it is technically Full-HD already, it needs aspect ratio correction to 16:9, and thats a scaling operation. One of the most expensive tasks you can do (the more input pixels you have, the more the scaler has to work). Jinc3+AR can choke plenty GPUs there.

Edit:
Someone actually posted a sample like this on Doom9 just a short while ago:
https://hotfile.com/dl/185596632/ddef693/ayaka_MSSL12.ts.html

Its about the most taxing commercial content you'll find (today) in terms of scaling (assuming a 1080p display)
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post #21 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 01:32 PM
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Thanks!

I'm not sure if renethx was actually suggesting using that higher level but just rather catagorizing different settings.

People, myself included, often ask what settings to use. The settings are out there on the internet but rarely found in just one place.

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post #22 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 01:48 PM
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Just saying that no-one should be using Level 5, Level 4 is the best quality, above it may even degrade again, or at the very least eat more performance for the same result. smile.gif
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post #23 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 02:02 PM
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I understood that too..

It is the law of diminishing returns, so to speak.

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post #24 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 06:38 PM
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Just curious, but if I decide to go with a discrete graphics card over my current Intel HD4000 graphics, should I be uninstalling the Intel HD audio and video drivers? I would assume that whatever HD audio drivers I need will be specific to the graphics card, such as the Realtek HD audio codecs. I'm currently using an Intel i3 3225. I'm considering the Sapphire Vapor-X HD7770 card that renethx recommended. I checked and I have room for it in my case, even with the power connector pointing towards the rear of the card. I'll likely be using madVR with it along with MPC-HC and Assassin's guide to use it with XBMC.

Is there a link someone can provide that will explain the various madVR settings shown in renethx's post (#4)? I have no idea what jinc3, AR, catmull, etc., are and what they do. I tried searching for the terms but mostly came up empty. Every place I've seen them discussed act like the reader already knows what they are.
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post #25 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 08:15 PM
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I just purchased yesterday the Intel i3 3225 because of of the integral HD4000. What a PIA disappointment as far as the video is concerned. I have a Samsung HDTV and a a little monitor connected to it where I do some work
tweaking MyMovies ect.... The only thing it is used for is HTPC. It was impossible to get both the monitor and the Samsung to display their proper appropriate resolutions.The monitor I could set fine but the HDTV would cut of the bottom of my taskbar
no matter what resolution I picked. So I took out my ATI-5850 (disconnected both the HDMI and VGA) and as before no problems. Turn on the TV (or select from the receiver) and the monitor turns off. Turn off or go to another input and the monitor goes on. Just the way it is supposed to work.
WTF, I don't get it!
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post #26 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 08:23 PM
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If you're using the i3 3225 and have the proper drivers installed you can scale the display so that it just fits the screen with little or no overscan. The IVB drivers allow you to adjust the scaling in 1% increments vs 5% for the older Clarkdale CPU that I had used previously. Just right-click the Intel HD display icon in the lower right of the screen and select Display Properties. I'd have to check the display window to tell you exactly what needs to be selected to bring up the scaling option but I've shut down the system for the night and I'm heading off to bed so it will have to wait until the morning.
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post #27 of 82 Old 02-01-2013, 08:54 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I just installed the drivers that came on the disc with my motherboard. (MSI) Can you give a link to the drivers
please. Since my my computer is imaged I can afford to experiment.
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post #28 of 82 Old 02-02-2013, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Just saying that no-one should be using Level 5, Level 4 is the best quality, above it may even degrade again, or at the very least eat more performance for the same result. smile.gif

I also said so in this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

HD 7850

...

Rendering time is much shorter, but that's it. It consumes a lot more power. So, unless you are interested in Level 5 (improvement over Lever 4 is little), go with 7770 (7750 for films).

I will make it clearer or maybe delete Level 5 entirely when I start a thread called "Graphics Card Roundup - 2013".

DXVA2 deinterlacing + Upscaling 1440x1080i60 to 1920x1080p60 with Jinc3+AR / Jinc3+AR is no problem with HD 7770 (the average rendering time is ~12.5 ms). In some countries 1440x1080i60 is the dominating HDTV broadcast format (e.g. in Japan; every single Japanese channel, whether it is terrestrial or satellite, is encrypted so that WMC and each card manufacturer's severely DRM-bound recorder/player are the only recorder/players that can be used, but hacking DRM is already found and a lot of people are watching channels in any player they like, however; this file you mentioned was recorded with such a hack).

Madshi may add more GPU intensive, good algorithms in future, but for now HD 7770 is a nice inexpensive choice for all kinds of sources with Jinc3+AR / Jinc3+AR in a HD / full HD display, except for downscaling 4K UHD 60fps under Catmull-Rom+AR+LL (4K UHD 60fps is extremely rare anyway). GTX 650 Ti is another good choice (although I prefer AMD).
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post #29 of 82 Old 02-02-2013, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

Just curious, but if I decide to go with a discrete graphics card over my current Intel HD4000 graphics, should I be uninstalling the Intel HD audio and video drivers? I would assume that whatever HD audio drivers I need will be specific to the graphics card, such as the Realtek HD audio codecs. I'm currently using an Intel i3 3225. I'm considering the Sapphire Vapor-X HD7770 card that renethx recommended. I checked and I have room for it in my case, even with the power connector pointing towards the rear of the card. I'll likely be using madVR with it along with MPC-HC and Assassin's guide to use it with XBMC.

Is there a link someone can provide that will explain the various madVR settings shown in renethx's post (#4)? I have no idea what jinc3, AR, catmull, etc., are and what they do. I tried searching for the terms but mostly came up empty. Every place I've seen them discussed act like the reader already knows what they are.

No, you don't have to uninstall Intel graphics driver. Rather I would keep it to use Intel Quick Sync video decoder in conjunction with a Radeon card. The latest 13.1 AMD graphics driver includes all (video and audio).
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post #30 of 82 Old 02-02-2013, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucifer1977 View Post

Thanks for the reply. I just installed the drivers that came on the disc with my motherboard. (MSI) Can you give a link to the drivers
please. Since my my computer is imaged I can afford to experiment.
Here't the link to the Intel driver update utility. Download and install it and then let it check your system to see what drivers you have installed. It will then provide you with a list of links for the latest drivers:

http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support/detect?iid=dc_iduu

To adjust the scaling on your display:

1. Right-click on the Intel(R) HD Graphics icon in the system tray and select Graphics Properties

2. Select the General Settings option under the Display heading on the left of the window.

3. In the right column, select the Customize Aspect Ratio option in the pull-down menu for Scaling.

4. Move the sliders for Horizontal and Vertical Scaling until the display fits inside the TV bezel.

5. Click Apply and then click OK to save the settings.

6. Click OK to exit the display properties window.

Note that there are lots of other settings you can change but I haven't investigated them yet to provide any recommendations. Most of them will probably have to be customized for your display anyway.
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