A first look at NZFS and replacing unRAID with NZFS’s Transparent RAID (tRAID) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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It was just a few years ago when FlexRAID was introduced on this forum for the very first time.

Let's make it a tradition and let me introduce to you NZFS! smile.gif
NZFS stands for Next-Generation Zion File System.
More detailed information will be provided in the weeks to come as NZFS is currently in private beta testing.
Nonetheless, here is a first look: http://www.openegg.org/2013/02/12/a-first-look-at-nzfs-and-replacing-unraid-with-nzfss-transparent-raid-traid/
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post #2 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 02:07 PM
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Did you see my post in my server thread? You literally posted this a second after I just asked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

What exactly is NZFS and how is it any different or better than ZFS or flexraid?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457151/how-long-should-20tb-of-full-drives-take-to-initialize-flexraid-help-me-with-basic-math/40_40#post_22956397

Two threads down from this one in the forum. lol..

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post #3 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 02:09 PM
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post #4 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 02:11 PM
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I think I am interested too.

Will a discount be available for current flexraid users as an "upgrade" ?

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post #5 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 02:26 PM
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I'm still a bit confused about what this is. Is this going to replace Flexraid? Is it a separate product? If it's an improvement over Flexraid, will there be an upgrade path for Flexraid users?
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post #6 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 03:24 PM
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"data architects with advanced mathematics knowledge unlike the guy behind unRAID who was just lucky to turn some free open source code he found into a product"

Inflammatory statements about Tom and Lime Tech are neither persuasive nor flattering towards your vaporware.

Tom's product enjoys a significant advantage that "data architects" respect - it's proven.
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post #7 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

I'm still a bit confused about what this is. Is this going to replace Flexraid? Is it a separate product? If it's an improvement over Flexraid, will there be an upgrade path for Flexraid users?

It's the Flexraid group and developers version of ZFS.

It's an upgrade from Flexraid. Provides higher performance and protection against data rot. I believe parity is done on the fly so no downtime when adding a new disk and such... or doing a parity update/validate or calculation/initialize.

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post #8 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

I'm still a bit confused about what this is. Is this going to replace Flexraid? Is it a separate product? If it's an improvement over Flexraid, will there be an upgrade path for Flexraid users?

One of the things I have on my plate is to provide clarification over the product offerings.

1. I like the name FlexRAID. As such, I don't want it tied to a product. Rather, I want "FlexRAID" to represent a family of products.
2. Under FlexRAID we now have:
- RAID-F: Snapshot RAID, Real-Time RAID, and Storage Pooling over File System (the current FlexRAID features)
- NZFS: a Next-Generation Technology that works below and optionally within a File System

NZFS is not a replacement for RAID-F, but instead it is a competing product.
It is a completely different take at solving the problem of storage protection.

RAID-F works as designed and satisfies a particular niche. I have a system that will always run RAID-F (heck, I created RAID-F because of that system).
The problem of storage data protection can be viewed from different angles; and with each angle, a different solution will seem more appropriate than the other.

The fact that NZFS is a far more advanced solution and now competes with the big dogs (RAIDz and the likes) is not a backhand to RAID-F.

That said, just as unRAID, RAID-F will take a hit from NZFS.
I suspect that many current FlexRAID users will migrate to NZFS.
I am revamping the current RAID-F functionality to give it a fighting chance. But still, NZFS will put some hurt on everyone in the space.
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post #9 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acesfullup View Post

"data architects with advanced mathematics knowledge unlike the guy behind unRAID who was just lucky to turn some free open source code he found into a product"

Inflammatory statements about Tom and Lime Tech are neither persuasive nor flattering towards your vaporware.

Tom's product enjoys a significant advantage that "data architects" respect - it's proven.
I was wondering how long it would take for the unRAID army to come crying foul.
I am well aware of the provocation. It was done well on purpose. wink.gif
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post #10 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:27 PM
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BUT I JUST PAID $60 FOR FLEXRAID LIKE 15 DAYS AGO :'(

I better get a free copy of NZFS when it's out...
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post #11 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarshonarbangla View Post

BUT I JUST PAID $60 FOR FLEXRAID LIKE 15 DAYS AGO :'(

I better get a free copy of NZFS when it's out...

Who says you'll need it. If you really thought you would have you would have just got ZFS today.

I think your good with Flexraid for now. (as am I)

But I could see you, myself and Assassin (just to name the first three posters in this thread) migrating to the new NZFS in the future.

Hopefully Brahim will have an "upgrade" discount where you can redeem your flexraid code for a cheaper NZFS purchase.

Only current flexraid owners would qualify. It might be a nice reward or benefit for those people.

(yes I am hoping wink.gif )

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post #12 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

I was wondering how long it would take for the unRAID army to come crying foul.
I am well aware of the provocation. It was done well on purpose. wink.gif

I was loving that BTW. Just throw it out there in the first page of a thread that is going to go on for a while, and do it aggressively so people know you mean it.

Not that I have any hate for unraid. (I do not)

But I'm just digging your style. tongue.gif

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post #13 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Who says you'll need it. If you really thought you would have you would have just got ZFS today.

I think your good with Flexraid for now. (as am I)

But I could see you, myself and Assassin (just to name the first three posters in this thread) migrating to the new NZFS in the future.

Hopefully Brahim will have an "upgrade" discount where you can redeem your flexraid code for a cheaper NZFS purchase.

Only current flexraid owners would qualify. It might be a nice reward or benefit for those people.

(yes I am hoping wink.gif )

NZFS patches almost all the disadvantages of ZFS which stopped me from using it as my storage solution, thus my raging interest in it. I think I saw Brahim post on his forum that FlexRAID owners would get a discount.
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post #14 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:42 PM
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I am very interested in seeing how the "pick 2 out of 3 features: Speed, Reliability, Cheap" conundrum will be broken. As a former FlexRAID user and now a ZFS evangelist, I think I would make a great NZFS beta tester.

biggrin.gif
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post #15 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 04:59 PM
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I would love to test it out when it comes out in public beta ^_^
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post #16 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarshonarbangla View Post

BUT I JUST PAID $60 FOR FLEXRAID LIKE 15 DAYS AGO :'(

I better get a free copy of NZFS when it's out...
Current FlexRAID users will indeed get a discount on NZFS.
I prefer not to have a few users meet me in a dark alley and put some discount on me otherwise. biggrin.gif
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post #17 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

Current FlexRAID users will indeed get a discount on NZFS.
I prefer not to have a few users would meet me in a dark alley and put some discount on me otherwise. biggrin.gif

How much discount will we receive exactly? And how much will NZFS cost retail?
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post #18 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 06:51 PM
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How about a comparison chart with NZFS and other similar products in the chart?

Something similar to this one, perhaps:

http://snapraid.sourceforge.net/compare.html
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post #19 of 411 Old 02-12-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

I prefer not to have a few users meet me in a dark alley and put some discount on me otherwise. biggrin.gif

That caused a real life LOL
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post #20 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Note that unRAID is a very small fish to fry in NZFS’s quest for dominance (still, small fish get fried first).
- NZFS is really going after ZFS and products from Data Robotic, NetApp, Synology.
- unRAID just happens to be a small and unfortunate roadkill.

For such a small fish you seem to be quite threatened by it.....
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post #21 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 04:20 AM
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I tried switching from unRAID to FlexRAID a while back and my system choked on it. I spent weeks trying to get it working until I finally gave up and switched back to unRAID. FWIW, I don't have any data on my 24TB server that can't be replaced (it's all media) so having a single parity drive isn't that much of an issue. Also, I tend to add drives one at a time to the array as my budget permits so there aren't two drives in the entire array that came from the same batch, further reducing the likelihood that I'll have multiple drive failures simultaneously.

My small fish works just fine. tongue.gif However, I just recently became aware of ZFS so I'll admit you've piqued my interest. Since I have a FlexRAID license that's basically useless to me I might be interested in checking out NZFS when it becomes available. Based on my unpleasant experience with FlexRAID, I'll do so with a grain of salt. Say what you want about unRAID, but it just plain works and has been extremely reliable for me.

You talk the talk, now walk the walk. rolleyes.gif
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post #22 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 08:05 AM
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I've been running unraid for several years now. During that time the same array has undergone multiple changes - motherboard swapped out 3X, controller 2X, chassis 3X, unraid version upgrade 3X, hard drive expansions 4+X, and multiple hard drive failures (no data lost). Bottom line - unraid may not be perfect, but it works and is extremely reliable.
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post #23 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 08:08 AM
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post #24 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 09:12 AM
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Edit: Misread need sleep.

Looks like an interesting product for the future though.
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post #25 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PobjoySpecial View Post

I agree.

FlexRAID requires the added complication of running a full OS, so it needs to offer a compelling advantage for a user to switch. If someone is just running a simple media server, it honestly sounds like more of a hassle to me. Interesting work, though.

1. You mean "the simplicity" of running of full OS. Right? tongue.gif
What's easier? Installing a standard Linux or Windows distribution with greater hardware and application support or an OS with limited hardware and application support?
One thing that will happen with NZFS is that there will be a customized Debian Squeeze + NZFS distribution to give those that want that tailored configuration feel exactly what they want.
Best yet, there will be a Drobo like appliance for those that don't even want their NAS to feel like a computer. wink.gif

2. No one says unRAID does not work. It better work after 8 years on the scene.
There are many old and arcade technologies that still technically work.
The topic at hand is innovation and moving forward.
Check out the newly added table comparison feature (at the bottom): http://www.openegg.org/2013/02/12/a-first-look-at-nzfs-and-replacing-unraid-with-nzfss-transparent-raid-traid/

Drives are getting larger and larger and issues that used to be muted are now more prevalent. Is your chosen solution keeping up?
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post #26 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

1. You mean "the simplicity" of running of full OS. Right? tongue.gif
What's easier? Installing a standard Linux or Windows distribution with greater hardware and application support or an OS with limited hardware and application support?
One thing that will happen with NZFS is that there will be a customized Debian Squeeze + NZFS distribution to give those that want that tailored configuration feel exactly what they want.
Best yet, there will be a Drobo like appliance for those that don't even want their NAS to feel like a computer. wink.gif

2. No one says unRAID does not work. It better work after 8 years on the scene.
There are many old and arcade technologies that still technically work.
The topic at hand is innovation and moving forward.
Check out the newly added table comparison feature (at the bottom): http://www.openegg.org/2013/02/12/a-first-look-at-nzfs-and-replacing-unraid-with-nzfss-transparent-raid-traid/

Drives are getting larger and larger and issues that used to be muted are now more prevalent. Is your chosen solution keeping up?

Is unRAID the main competitor of NZFS or is it ZFS?
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post #27 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarshonarbangla View Post

Is unRAID the main competitor of NZFS or is it ZFS?
Basically, I will use the money I will get from taking unRAID's customer base to fund my competition against Data Robotics, NetApp, and Synology.
Eat the small fish first, get some strength, then go after the big fish.
Straight enough? smile.gif
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post #28 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

Basically, I will use the money I will get from taking unRAID's customer base to fund my competition against Data Robotics, NetApp, and Synology.
Eat the small fish first, get some strength, then go after the big fish.
Straight enough? smile.gif

So you are planning a new enclosure line down the road that will run NZFS?
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post #29 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 11:19 AM
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I think he's saying before he can seriously win the big boys or the bulk of the enterprise market he's going to have to win the home user market. Flexraid and unraid users.

Once superiority is established and demonstrated its easier to win Solaris/ZFS and a wider base.

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post #30 of 411 Old 02-13-2013, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I think he's saying before he can seriously win the big boys or the bulk of the enterprise market he's going to have to win the home user market. Flexraid and unraid users.

Once superiority is established and demonstrated its easier to win Solaris/ZFS and a wider base.

I think he really is saying there will be a future NAS-like device o_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

Best yet, there will be a Drobo like appliance for those that don't even want their NAS to feel like a computer. wink.gif
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