Flat Panal vs. Television? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 02-14-2013, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the difference in WMC????smile.gif
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post #2 of 13 Old 02-14-2013, 02:04 PM
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Overscanning. Flat panel applies some - television doesn't.

http://www.missingremote.com/guide/missing-remote-tips-and-tweaks-2-preventing-sneaky-tv-overscan-windows-7-media-center
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post #3 of 13 Old 02-14-2013, 03:08 PM
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Anyone else amused the second screenshot in that article exposes junk along the top edge, junk that is hidden when overscan is applied, as is the intent for broadcast TV? The author may use "professional monitors", but most people don't, and most people will find disabling overscan to cause "network tickers and logos" to NOT be in "their usual places", talking heads to be shrunken, etc, and some content to display junk along the top edge or sides. My local NBC HD channel doesn't fill the whole frame at the top for any HD program, leaving a 10-15 pixel tall black bar along the top, with a visible bright white pixel at the upper left, which is actually contained in a row of about 10 grayscale pixels. It's been that way for years, and it's the main reason I ended my experiment with "Television" mode after just a couple of hours.

For these reasons, I think it's misguided to disable overscan for broadcast TV, though obviously only one device should be applying it, either the TV or the PC. You're not going to lose any valuable information by leaving it on, because broadcast TV is meant to be overscanned, and I'm skeptical there is any real sharpness improvement that can be consistently observed under normal conditions by disabling it. So I don't see any advantage to disabling it. I recommend putting the flat panel TV in full pixel mode (1:1 mapping) and setting WMC to Flat Panel, letting WMC overscan broadcast TV. Apparently this doesn't affect how WMC displays DVDs, MP4 files, and presumably other HD files you can play with the the help of codec packs, but I've only verified it for the native MP4 support using the AVS709HD test pattern. That said, I use XBMC for non-broadcast TV video, and my MKVs and whatnot are not overscanned, which of course is what I want for them. It's just broadcast TV that needs it.
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post #4 of 13 Old 02-14-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

For these reasons, I think it's misguided to disable overscan for broadcast TV, though obviously only one device should be applying it, either the TV or the PC. You're not going to lose any valuable information by leaving it on, because broadcast TV is meant to be overscanned, and I'm skeptical there is any real sharpness improvement that can be consistently observed under normal conditions by disabling it. So I don't see any advantage to disabling it. I recommend putting the flat panel TV in full pixel mode (1:1 mapping) and setting WMC to Flat Panel, letting WMC overscan broadcast TV. Apparently this doesn't affect how WMC displays DVDs, MP4 files, and presumably other HD files you can play with the the help of codec packs, but I've only verified it for the native MP4 support using the AVS709HD test pattern. That said, I use XBMC for non-broadcast TV video, and my MKVs and whatnot are not overscanned, which of course is what I want for them. It's just broadcast TV that needs it.

No. Only ANALOG broadcast TV is meant to be overscanned. The moving lines are a result of ignorant and laziness from broadcast companies. They serve no purpose in digital broadcast. A 1080i source is meant to be displayed on a 1080p display.

I have been watching "Television" for years and I can say the situation is definitely improving. I only see the moving lines only on very old materials. YMMV though depending on the channels you watch.

The "Television" mode does cause an issue with DVD playback but fortunately I never use WMC to play DVDs.
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post #5 of 13 Old 02-14-2013, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pixelation View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

For these reasons, I think it's misguided to disable overscan for broadcast TV, though obviously only one device should be applying it, either the TV or the PC. You're not going to lose any valuable information by leaving it on, because broadcast TV is meant to be overscanned, and I'm skeptical there is any real sharpness improvement that can be consistently observed under normal conditions by disabling it. So I don't see any advantage to disabling it. I recommend putting the flat panel TV in full pixel mode (1:1 mapping) and setting WMC to Flat Panel, letting WMC overscan broadcast TV. Apparently this doesn't affect how WMC displays DVDs, MP4 files, and presumably other HD files you can play with the the help of codec packs, but I've only verified it for the native MP4 support using the AVS709HD test pattern. That said, I use XBMC for non-broadcast TV video, and my MKVs and whatnot are not overscanned, which of course is what I want for them. It's just broadcast TV that needs it.

No. Only ANALOG broadcast TV is meant to be overscanned. The moving lines are a result of ignorant and laziness from broadcast companies. They serve no purpose in digital broadcast. A 1080i source is meant to be displayed on a 1080p display.

You really should have quoted the part preceding "For these reasons" which gave the reasons I disagree with you. Here, I'll do it for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Anyone else amused the second screenshot in that article exposes junk along the top edge, junk that is hidden when overscan is applied, as is the intent for broadcast TV? The author may use "professional monitors", but most people don't, and most people will find disabling overscan to cause "network tickers and logos" to NOT be in "their usual places", talking heads to be shrunken, etc, and some content to display junk along the top edge or sides. My local NBC HD channel doesn't fill the whole frame at the top for any HD program, leaving a 10-15 pixel tall black bar along the top, with a visible bright white pixel at the upper left, which is actually contained in a row of about 10 grayscale pixels. It's been that way for years, and it's the main reason I ended my experiment with "Television" mode after just a couple of hours.

For people who don't mind shows looking different on their TVs than everyone else's, who don't care about video noise along the edges of some programs, including some HD programs, or who are lucky enough never to see them (good luck with that), disabling overscan might be an option. However, I'm not sure what they'll get out of it, because broadcasters assume TVs overscan and frame accordingly, and I seriously doubt anyone can consistently observe any sharpness improvement under normal conditions.
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post #6 of 13 Old 02-14-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

You really should have quoted the part preceding "For these reasons" which gave the reasons I disagree with you. Here, I'll do it for you:
For people who don't mind shows looking different on their TVs than everyone else's, who don't care about video noise along the edges of some programs, including some HD programs, or who are lucky enough never to see them (good luck with that), disabling overscan might be an option. However, I'm not sure what they'll get out of it, because broadcasters assume TVs overscan and frame accordingly, and I seriously doubt anyone can consistently observe any sharpness improvement under normal conditions.

You should also have quoted the paragraph after the one you quoted. I will also do it for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelation 
I have been watching "Television" for years and I can say the situation is definitely improving. I only see the moving lines only on very old materials. YMMV though depending on the channels you watch.

The situation is definitely improving. When watching programs recorded in HD, I never saw the moving lines. And just about all materials in HD channels are HD now. Sometimes when watching dramas in HD, No body cares about where the channel bug is. Talking heads shrinking? That's because you just switched from overscan! As far as sharpness improvement goes, you can say the same for 720p vs 1080p. People still opt for 1080p anyway.
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post #7 of 13 Old 02-14-2013, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pixelation View Post

You should also have quoted the paragraph after the one you quoted. I will also do it for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelation 
I have been watching "Television" for years and I can say the situation is definitely improving. I only see the moving lines only on very old materials. YMMV though depending on the channels you watch.

Well, I was surprised to see it after I finished my post. Either it was there originally and I inadvertently clipped it when editing my post, or it wasn't present when I replied to you, so the forum software couldn't include it when it quoted your post. I would've edited my post to reflect this, but the forum software told me my post was being held for moderation, because I'm still stuck in new user limbo.
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The situation is definitely improving. When watching programs recorded in HD, I never saw the moving lines. And just about all materials in HD channels are HD now.

Again, I was talking about HD programs on NBC, like Law & Order SVU, Parks & Recreation, etc, when I said, "My local NBC HD channel doesn't fill the whole frame at the top for any HD program, leaving a 10-15 pixel tall black bar along the top, with a visible bright white pixel at the upper left, which is actually contained in a row of about 10 grayscale pixels. It's been that way for years, and it's the main reason I ended my experiment with "Television" mode after just a couple of hours." To be clear, it's still like that today. Do what you want. I don't care. I still think it's pointless and misguided though for the reasons I gave in my earlier messages.
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post #8 of 13 Old 02-15-2013, 09:42 AM
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I watched a blu-ray last night and as usual I have 1:1 pixel mapping turned on. I tried switching to the standard with overscan and I have to say, you don't know what you are missing. If you have the habit of watching extended edition or deleted scenes, there is no reason not to see the material outside the so called "safe zone". It is there. It is part of the movie. Why not watch it? You can always sit closer. LOL!
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post #9 of 13 Old 02-15-2013, 09:47 AM
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It is there. It is part of the movie. Why not watch it?

That sums up my whole opinion on the matter.
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post #10 of 13 Old 02-15-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pixelation View Post

I watched a blu-ray last night and as usual I have 1:1 pixel mapping turned on. I tried switching to the standard with overscan and I have to say, you don't know what you are missing. If you have the habit of watching extended edition or deleted scenes, there is no reason not to see the material outside the so called "safe zone". It is there. It is part of the movie. Why not watch it? You can always sit closer. LOL!

LOL! I must have said "Broadcast TV" a dozen times, and starting with my first message, I qualified everything I said about overscan as applying only to Broadcast TV, and for everything that isn't Broadcast TV, to use "Full PIxel" mode (no overscan). Despite all this, now you're bringing Bluray into the discussion. I guess I need to spell it out again. Bluray is another of those non-broadcast TV things for which broadcast TV considerations do not apply, and it should be viewed in Full Pixel mode with no overscan, which is how I watch everything that isn't Broadcast TV.

Other broadcast TV anomalies I've noticed in HD programs with no overscan in just a few minutes of channel flipping over the last 24 hours are varying small amounts of matte space (black borders) on one or more of the sides (both horizontal and vertical), an occasional column of discolored pixels (sometimes bright, sometimes transparent, and when the latter, several pixels wide) on the left edge, and some bright green pixels coming and going in the upper left corner of early AM CBS news. All of that is hidden when overscan is enabled, and I do see the same things with the cable company DVR I still have on another TV in addition to my WMC setup with HDHR Prime, so it is indeed the broadcast that is responsible. Add that to the persistent video glitch I described for NBC that I get for all its HD primetime shows and transient problems revealed by disabling overscan such as flickering noise lines, and I have a collection of glitches that I'd notice on a regular basis. Accepting all this in order to show a little more of an irrelevant part of the picture in Broadcast TV is not a good trade-off to me. I find the glitches distracting, while the absence of irrelevant parts of the picture in video that is broadcast with the anticipation of overscanning being enabled is not distracting. Maybe things will improve one day, but that's what I said a few years ago when I first learned about the Flat Panel/Television difference.
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post #11 of 13 Old 02-15-2013, 01:45 PM
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Blu-ray was just given as an example coz that's what I watched last night. The same movie could have been played on broadcast TV. In fact, you stand to lose more because they tend to trim 21:9 movie to 16:9. Again, as I mentioned very early. The extra line(s) is YMMV. It is almost completely gone for my local region. Maybe you should take the lead and let your local channels know they are doing something stupid.
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post #12 of 13 Old 02-15-2013, 04:15 PM
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Blu-ray was just given as an example coz that's what I watched last night.

That's nice. Doesn't have anything to do with what I've been talking about, though, and I've been careful to distinguish broadcast TV from video that isn't broadcast TV all along.
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The same movie could have been played on broadcast TV. In fact, you stand to lose more because they tend to trim 21:9 movie to 16:9.

Seriously? If you're watching something that was originally 21:9 that has been trimmed to 16:9, you've already lost the whole war.

It's exceedingly rare I watch movies delivered via broadcast TV, and when I do, I don't expect a Bluray-level experience. Besides decent HD quality, the main thing I want out of broadcast TV is no broadcast-related glitches. Turning overscan off gives me lots of those glitches in material I actually watch via broadcast TV. Leaving it on means I never think about except when I see a thread like this one.
Quote:
Again, as I mentioned very early. The extra line(s) is YMMV. It is almost completely gone for my local region. Maybe you should take the lead and let your local channels know they are doing something stupid.

It's not just my local broadcasters, and I doubt what I observe is in any way unusual. I started my first message with, "Anyone else amused the second screenshot in that article exposes junk along the top edge, junk that is hidden when overscan is applied, as is the intent for broadcast TV?" I think it's very funny the author talks about "watching professional monitors at his day job", implying he's got some expertise, then goes on to post an ESPN screenshot that contain glitches caused by his tinkering, which he doesn't note in any way. He also fails to even hint at the various problems his tinkering will likely reveal. He also fails to describe any advantages that would outweigh the glitches. For a number of reasons, I have a hard time believing people who claim they can tell the picture is sharpened, and given that broadcasters anticipate overscanning, nothing important is concealed by it, so I don't think there are any real advantages.
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post #13 of 13 Old 02-16-2013, 03:23 PM
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Interesting discussion. Just wanted to pop in to thank the OP for asking the question and staknhalo for answering. Maybe I'm crazy, but my picture is razor sharp now, where it was a tad soft before. I understand the point about overscan not being intended to be seen, but I'd rather have the sharpest possible picture and ignore the glitches.
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