WD Red vs WD Green vs Seagate 3TB Hard Drive Speeds - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 884 Old 08-07-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Ever check your load and unload cycles? MFG rates them for 300,000.

WHS and windows does not seem to be much trouble. It is Unraid, Linux, and NAS boxes that I guess do it. For these you should disable the head parking. I am not sure which models are effected but it looks like EARS and EARX are. Running up the load and unload cycles isn't neccessarily going to equal hard drive death.

It's like racking up a lot of miles on a car. The motor might go for 500,000 miles, or it might die at 180,000 miles. You never really know. Keeping the miles down of coarse is preferred. That's all the WDidle firmware corrects. Did you do the firmware ?

Based on the fact that I have several of these, and all have minimal cycles at best, I'm guessing that there is an additional piece of data we're missing here. I don't mean other software is causing it, the drive is definitely what is doing it, but there must be some sort of use case which is making it much more likely for this to happen. The drives I have statistically should have registered this in one form or another, unless of course, I'm not using them in some way the population experiencing this problem are.
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post #602 of 884 Old 08-07-2013, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Again, his statement is incorrect.

There are plenty of people using green drives with software raid, like unRaid, with absolutely zero issues for many years.

You can easily find anything on google. Doesn't mean that it is true or accurate. There are many PC "truths" that have been disproved on AVS just by testing it.
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post #603 of 884 Old 08-08-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by damelon View Post

Based on the fact that I have several of these, and all have minimal cycles at best, I'm guessing that there is an additional piece of data we're missing here. I don't mean other software is causing it, the drive is definitely what is doing it, but there must be some sort of use case which is making it much more likely for this to happen. The drives I have statistically should have registered this in one form or another, unless of course, I'm not using them in some way the population experiencing this problem are.

I think it's because you have newer 3TB Z series drives that don't have the issues of the older 2TB and 1TB and 1.5TB models. That's what it looks like to me. I've seen a couple people say the newer drives are better.

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post #604 of 884 Old 08-08-2013, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Again, his statement is incorrect.

There are plenty of people using green drives with software raid, like unRaid, with absolutely zero issues for many years.

You can easily find anything on google. Doesn't mean that it is true or accurate. There are many PC "truths" that have been disproved on AVS just by testing it.

So test it and prove me wrong biggrin.gif

There's literally thousands of people reporting it, and the MFG even has a specific help and support process in their own forum and a support process to fix the issue.

Beyond saying this I'd rather let this go than debate it further. You win this round by attrition.

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post #605 of 884 Old 08-08-2013, 07:29 AM
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It isn't really that important. I don't think we were trying to prove anything (about the green drives) in this thread anyway. Just wanted to point out I don't have the issue even with owning several of the drives, but I do plan on replacing those drives eventually anyway. I also agree that the latest rounds of seagate drives look to be better (Both the 3tb 7200.14 model and the 5900 4tb model) than WD Green/WD Red Drives. As far as the title of the thread, both Seagate options are faster than both WD Options. YAY, that was easy!

I think we've also seen that Seagate "SAYS" that your warranty is voided if you open an external drive, so you can't count on it 100%, however they don't seem to stop you from registering the bare drive and claiming the warranty on it either, so what they do and what they say doesn't seem to be the same, so you can feel safe that if you have an issue it is likely they will honor the warranty on the drive.
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post #606 of 884 Old 08-08-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by damelon View Post

It isn't really that important. I don't think we were trying to prove anything (about the green drives) in this thread anyway. Just wanted to point out I don't have the issue even with owning several of the drives, but I do plan on replacing those drives eventually anyway. I also agree that the latest rounds of seagate drives look to be better (Both the 3tb 7200.14 model and the 5900 4tb model) than WD Green/WD Red Drives. As far as the title of the thread, both Seagate options are faster than both WD Options. YAY, that was easy!

I think we've also seen that Seagate "SAYS" that your warranty is voided if you open an external drive, so you can't count on it 100%, however they don't seem to stop you from registering the bare drive and claiming the warranty on it either, so what they do and what they say doesn't seem to be the same, so you can feel safe that if you have an issue it is likely they will honor the warranty on the drive.

I bought at least 10 of my Seagates as OEM drives and did not crack them open. Many from Amazon and Newegg. Many @99$. I bought 5 on the black Friday special, and have been buying them since. I have seen them hit $99 only a couple times- but I always grab another when I see it.

I have also cracked open a few.... more than 4 for sure.

My point: If your afraid to crack open an external you can still buy the internal version will full warranty cheaper than WD most times. Even at the same price it's a better hard drive. I have indeed RMA bare drives back to the MFG and gotten a retail external kit back as replacement- so obviously they knew it was from an External. I think if the drive fails they just honor the warranty, so a legit claim is likely to be honored. I never talked to anyone- just filled out RMA online and shipped it back. I'm guessing these reputable MFG's just support their products, but even if they declined I think you could complain and probably get exception. If your uncertain about it- just buy the bare drive. It's not more than $10 most times.

I got one for $75 from Staples with my coupon earlier in this thread. biggrin.gif That's the best I've done tongue.gif

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post #607 of 884 Old 08-08-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post



My point: If your afraid to crack open an external you can still buy the internal version will full warranty cheaper than WD most times. Even at the same price it's a better hard drive. I have indeed RMA bare drives back to the MFG and gotten a retail external kit back as replacement- so obviously they knew it was from an External. I think if the drive fails they just honor the warranty, so a legit claim is likely to be honored. I never talked to anyone- just filled out RMA online and shipped it back. I'm guessing these reputable MFG's just support their products, but even if they declined I think you could complain and probably get exception.

Totally agree.
I've done the same several times in the past.
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post #608 of 884 Old 08-09-2013, 09:17 AM
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Totally agree.
I've done the same several times in the past.

I just grabbed one from Costco again this week. The Costco $99 deal is great because no rebates and at least for me it's easy. I can text my wife to grab one for me when she is shopping. biggrin.gif

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post #609 of 884 Old 08-09-2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I just grabbed one from Costco again this week. The Costco $99 deal is great because no rebates and at least for me it's easy. I can text my wife to grab one for me when she is shopping. biggrin.gif

I keep feeling like I should, but then again I don't need the space right now, and probably won't for many months still... by then they might just be cheaper anyway. That is, unless I decide I want to do a complete backup anyway of all of my media, which sort of feels silly since they are technically backups already.
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post #610 of 884 Old 08-09-2013, 12:56 PM
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Yeah- HDD's get cheaper with time. They getter bigger and better too. I buy them one at a time- and I never have more than a few GB free of space on my server. I built my server up one drive at a time as a needed it. I did not just go out and buy and build a 30TB server all at once. That is the main advantage of software raid and flexraid- it let's you grow as you go. somehow it just feels like spent a lot less on storage since I spread my costs out over a long period of time... $100 this month... $100 that month.. etc... etc.

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post #611 of 884 Old 08-11-2013, 08:02 PM
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Is $129 a good price for a 3TB WD Red from Newegg?
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post #612 of 884 Old 08-11-2013, 08:18 PM
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It's a decent price and it keeps dropping. I'd personally (and I did) pony up a few more bucks and get the seagate 4tb.

If 3tb is fine with you, there have been deals on seagate 3tb externals for $99 and people open them up and pull the drive.
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post #613 of 884 Old 08-11-2013, 08:39 PM
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Sounds good. I will keep looking.
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post #614 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

It's a decent price and it keeps dropping. I'd personally (and I did) pony up a few more bucks and get the seagate 4tb.

If 3tb is fine with you, there have been deals on seagate 3tb externals for $99 and people open them up and pull the drive.

I think as mentioned earlier, the only problem with the 4TB drives is the price. If you suffer from a lack of bays to put them in, that is really the big pro in the 4TB market, but cost per MB (or TB) is quite a bit higher. If you can get a 3TB seagate 7200.14 drive for $99, why would you spend $150+ for a TB drive. It's not cost effective. Since my parity drive is already 3TB, I'd have to commit more than a single drive to move to 4TB anyway. I'll probably pull the trigger sometime soon and add another drive. I do have 2 RED Drives but I got them on a sale a while back. I haven't seen them that cheap again. At the moment the Seagate 7200.14 IMO is the only drive I'd look at considering cost, space, and performance.
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post #615 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 10:21 AM
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I think as mentioned earlier, the only problem with the 4TB drives is the price. If you suffer from a lack of bays to put them in, that is really the big pro in the 4TB market, but cost per MB (or TB) is quite a bit higher. If you can get a 3TB seagate 7200.14 drive for $99, why would you spend $150+ for a TB drive. It's not cost effective. Since my parity drive is already 3TB, I'd have to commit more than a single drive to move to 4TB anyway. I'll probably pull the trigger sometime soon and add another drive. I do have 2 RED Drives but I got them on a sale a while back. I haven't seen them that cheap again. At the moment the Seagate 7200.14 IMO is the only drive I'd look at considering cost, space, and performance.

I am in the same boat as you. I really like the 7200 speed of the 3TB, it's faster than just about everything including the 4TB. That's nice. I also have a 3TB parity so it makes sense to keep it. And I am not at all limited by drive bays... I have 12 bays full of 20 total in my Norco 4220 case. I am just about to add a second Sata HBA card, and I have 8 ports free. For this reason I go with 3TB too.. If I had a limited amount of bays I might spend more for the slower 4TB drives to save the space. If you have only 4 bays- that is an extra 4TB of storage. That sometimes matters.

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post #616 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 10:44 AM
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are the 7200.14 for $99 pulled from enclosures? or that's the actual price people paying for it?

In canada they are on sale for $129.99, same with the WD Red
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post #617 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 11:45 AM
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are the 7200.14 for $99 pulled from enclosures? or that's the actual price people paying for it?

In canada they are on sale for $129.99, same with the WD Red

But the Segates are superior to RED IMO even at the same price and should be preferred. Unless someone has a mental fixation with the WD brand there's little reason to use a WD RED IMO. Seagate makes a better NAS drive and normal drive (which are interchangeable for most applications ) and often sells for same or lower prices. You situation is rare where the cost is the same. You might want to deal hunt more. And yes you can rip them out of externals. I do it all the time. I think many think the HD market is competitive or the quality of WD is still superior in today's market. Neither is the case.

WD 5400rpm drives are just garbage in my opinion. They are slow, they don't provide any real world benefit or relief in temps or noise or power consumption to account for the speed handicap either. And in general I have personally grown suspect of WD 5400rpm drive reliability. I've owned 12+ of various models and them seem in general less reliable than many of the other brands I have lots of experience with. I have 12 Seagate 7200.14 and zero issues so far.

I honestly can not count how many WD 5400rpm I have RMA-ed. It's over half for sure. Some within the first year. Just my thoughts. Others can disagree. I still own them, but they are not my preference if I had a choice today.

I am highly disappointed in WD's total abandonment and refusale to provide the market with a cheap, affordable, reliable, general use 7200rpm hard drive. It's like WD just isn't interested in doing that. For that reason I can not recommend them for anything. I am philosophically opposed to the WD market direction and decisions they employ, and I am highly insulted they choose to market 5400rpm drives under the false marketing scam they are better for bogus reasons that go unrealized and unappreciated in the real world applications. A modern tech 7200 rpm drive is capable of the same power consumption, the same temps, and the same noise so the whole concept of handicapped performance seems stupid to me. The performance penalty is never recouped in other areas where the slowing the spindle speed should improve upon.

I'd avoid the WD 5400rpm family unless it's $25 or more cheaper per drive. That's just my slant on it. Perhaps WD might get the message and actually develop a quality 7200rpm 3TB or 4TB HDD that can sell for prices not above $200. Any company that chooses or needs to slow the spindle speed to make up for lack of engineering is BS and should be avoided. 5400rpm drives are a scam.

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post #618 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 11:53 AM
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Does Seagate still sell any 5900 rpm drives? I have a bunch of the 2TB 5900 rpm seagate I got years ago and have been very pleased with them. I just figure if the Seagate 7200rpm, 3TB drives run cool, a 5900 rpm version should run even cooler.

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Seriously... you're still saying Seagate are superior to WD... based on what? Your feelings? If anecdotal experience counts as fact now then I can tell with 100% certainty that Seagate drives are the worst on the planet. I send 1000's of drives in PCs out the door every year and guess which one is the only drive not to have a single RMA yet... the WD Red. Must mean it's the best on the planet right?
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post #620 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:00 PM
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I only have one WD 3TB drive, non red version, and five Seagate 3TB, 7200 rpm drives. I was surprised that the WD drive was hotter than the Seagte drives.

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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I only have one WD 3TB drive, non red version, and five Seagate 3TB, 7200 rpm drives. I was surprised that the WD drive was hotter than the Seagte drives.

In my personal file server my Reds run about 2c cooler than than the Seagate NAS and about 6c cooler than the 7200.14. Also about 2c cooler than the Greens.

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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Does Seagate still sell any 5900 rpm drives? I have a bunch of the 2TB 5900 rpm seagate I got years ago and have been very pleased with them. I just figure if the Seagate 7200rpm, 3TB drives run cool, a 5900 rpm version should run even cooler.

The new 4TB drives are 5900 RPM.
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post #623 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:27 PM
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In my personal file server my Reds run about 2c cooler than than the Seagate NAS and about 6c cooler than the 7200.14. Also about 2c cooler than the Greens.

My Seagates run cooler than my Green drives.

I am no longer purchasing any 5400rpm drives anymore so there will be no future testing on this issue.

I am opposed to 5400rpm drives. They suck. (opinion)

My typical personal use just makes them terrible. I might copy and paste and move stuff around more, and use it in general more than normal folks. Or I am just hyper sensitive to the fact they are slower.

Either way... 5400rpm drives suck. And I do dislike WD for not providing any quality 7200rpm options for me. I used to be very PRO WD and only bought WD. But I think the market is just totally changed today and it's probably time for that bias to die and go away.
WD is quickly losing ground to Seagate from what I observe. If it was not for Hitachi and the Hitachi tech they'd have almost nothing good going for them. If WD comes out with some quality affordable 3TB and 4TB 7200rpm drives I will change my opinion.

Why Da Fuq are you installing RED drives in desktops ?

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post #624 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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The new 4TB drives are 5900 RPM.

Much better compromise on spindle speed IMO. 5900rpm is tolerable where 5400rpm is not. Evident in the fact the Seagate 4TB uses less power than the 3TB RED per TB and it's quite a bit faster too. Oh- and it's bigger tongue.gif

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post #625 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Seriously... you're still saying Seagate are superior to WD... based on what? Your feelings? If anecdotal experience counts as fact now then I can tell with 100% certainty that Seagate drives are the worst on the planet. I send 1000's of drives in PCs out the door every year and guess which one is the only drive not to have a single RMA yet... the WD Red. Must mean it's the best on the planet right?
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I have no dog in this race, but figured I would answer your question. According to Legit Reviews:
Quote:
Final Thoughts and Conclusions:

Companies love it when we do standalone reviews, but we wanted to try something different and do more of a versus style article. We always start a review without any favorites, but after looking at the specifications and writing the introduction the WD Black 4TB hard drive looked like it would be performance winner. Overall we did find that the WD Black 4TB desktop hard drive (part number WD4001FAEX) was in the lead more times than not, but it wasn’t that far ahead of the competition. Seeing that the WD Black 4TB hard drive was a 7200RPM product makes you think that it would destroy any comparable 5900RPM drive, but there is more to it than that. The Seagate Desktop HDD 4TB (part number ST4000DM000) performed exceptionally well not due to the spindle speed per say, but due to the fact that it has less platters. Hard drive makers often don’t say how many platters a drive has, so that is where we come in and we found that Seagate makes up for the lower rotational speeds by having less platters. The performance between the drives was therefore very close, so close that we are willing to call it a toss-up. That is something we don’t often do and certainly something we didn’t expect when looking at the price tag and specifications of these drives.

With performance being too close to call a clear winner, you need to look at other metrics when making a decision as to which drive is right for you. The strongest thing the WD Black 4TB drive has going for it is the peace of mind that a rather long 5-year warranty. The Seagate Desktop HDD 4TB runs cooler, uses less power and costs 58% less.

The WD Black 4TB hard drive had solid performance and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but at the end of a versus article there must be one winner. That winner, on this particular pair of drives has to be the Seagate Desktop HDD.15 4TB hard drive. You just can’t beat the price versus performance found on this drive.

Legit Bottom Line: If you are looking for a 4TB hard drive for secondary storage, the Seagate Desktop HDD.15 offers the right mix of value and performance!
http://www.legitreviews.com/seagate-desktop-hdd-15-4tb-vs-wd-black-4tb-hard-drive-review_2182#cByqHMJh7QQ8MDDp.99


You can read their entire reasoning in their 9 page review starting here:

http://www.legitreviews.com/seagate-desktop-hdd-15-4tb-vs-wd-black-4tb-hard-drive-review_2182


Take note that this is from May 10th of 2013 and anything that changed between then and now is not reflected in their review.
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post #626 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:38 PM
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Why Da Fuq are you installing RED drives in desktops ?

PCs, Computers, Media Servers, File Servers.... just speaking in general terms... I deal with a lot of HDDs and obviously a lot of HDD RMAs.

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post #627 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Much better compromise on spindle speed IMO. 5900rpm is tolerable where 5400rpm is not. Evident in the fact the Seagate 4TB uses less power than the 3TB RED per TB and it's quite a bit faster too. Oh- and it's bigger tongue.gif

I agree, the 5900rpm used is the best of both worlds. It makes it use less power and run cooler without adversely affecting performance. This can be seen with its almost identical numbers when stacked against the WD 7200 rpm 4TB drive.
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post #628 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Seriously... you're still saying Seagate are superior to WD... based on what? Your feelings? If anecdotal experience counts as fact now then I can tell with 100% certainty that Seagate drives are the worst on the planet. I send 1000's of drives in PCs out the door every year and guess which one is the only drive not to have a single RMA yet... the WD Red. Must mean it's the best on the planet right?
tongue.gif

I guess I am disturbed by the fact that so much WD bias exists in the market place where people automatically jump to something like a 5400RPM drive and consider it a good option because of bogus clever marketing. It disturbs me that WD simply chooses not to compete in the 7200rpm consumer value segment and just assumes everyone will automatically still flock to WD and just fall into a 5400rpm product. Then I watch consumers actually do that like sheep. Very upsetting.

If you peel back the layers seldom is a 5400rpm a good choice in almost any application. WD drives are also consistently expensive, especially for the better 7200rpm models. And those 7200rpm models are not up to par on energy efficiency, speed, temp control, or noise. Just because WD doesn't offer a great 7200rpm product does not mean that (A) 7200rpm should be avoided, or (B) another brand does not offer a better option. That is the BS reality that WD is trying to create and it bothers me.

I WANT A BIGGER FASTER MORE ENERGY EFFICIENT HDD THAT RUNS COOL AND QUIET AND SELLS FOR LESS $ PER TB OF STORAGE.


I might be a greedy pig in my wants- but Seagate offers that much more than WD these days so I see very little value in them today. Yet WD sells tons of drives everyday to folks that just choose them for the name and past historic precedent, unassuming and uninformed folks that don't know the truth. 5400rpm drives are a scam to increase margins at the expense of customer satisfaction and user experience.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #629 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:48 PM
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I have no dog in this race, but figured it would be easy enough to answer your question. According to Legit Reviews:
http://www.legitreviews.com/seagate-desktop-hdd-15-4tb-vs-wd-black-4tb-hard-drive-review_2182#cByqHMJh7QQ8MDDp.99


You can read their entire reasoning in their 9 page review starting here:

http://www.legitreviews.com/seagate-desktop-hdd-15-4tb-vs-wd-black-4tb-hard-drive-review_2182


Take note that this is from May 10th of 2013 and anything that changed between then and now is not reflected in their review.

So what is that supposed to prove? There isn't enough public failure rate data available to determine who's right. WD feels their WD Black storage platform is better with more/less dense platters while Seagate disagrees. WD feels they offer a superior product because of their design so they charge a premium for it. It also comes with a 5 year warranty opposed to the crapshoot you get from Seagate where you have to wait and see what warranty you get after you enter your serial into the warranty of mysteries page. It doesn't come down to just performance. Both players should know that at this point. If you have data that requires high performance (at a consumer level) that data probably doesn't require large capacity drives and you're going to use SSD anyway. The performance race for consumer level HDDs is pretty much dead. For me personally the solid warranty from WD is worth the extra money.

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post #630 of 884 Old 08-12-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I agree, the 5900rpm used is the best of both worlds. It makes it use less power and run cooler without adversely affecting performance. This can be seen with its almost identical numbers when stacked against the WD 7200 rpm 4TB drive.

You mean identical performance in reads and writes... The peformance is not the same on energy, heat or noise. Or cost tongue.gif

The Seagate is much cheaper consistently, and uses much less energy and makes much less heat and noise. Thus my gripe against WD these days.


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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I have no dog in this race, but figured I would answer your question. According to Legit Reviews:
http://www.legitreviews.com/seagate-desktop-hdd-15-4tb-vs-wd-black-4tb-hard-drive-review_2182#cByqHMJh7QQ8MDDp.99


You can read their entire reasoning in their 9 page review starting here:

http://www.legitreviews.com/seagate-desktop-hdd-15-4tb-vs-wd-black-4tb-hard-drive-review_2182


Take note that this is from May 10th of 2013 and anything that changed between then and now is not reflected in their review.

Good points. biggrin.gif

The newest .15 lines and even the .14 lines usually offer superior performance and sell for lower cost. That's important when choosing a consumer oriented HDD.

A 7200rpm Seagate would easily beat a 7200 WD for the same reasons. It's been consistently among the fastest drives over the last 12 months. It even hangs with the 10k rpm WD drives in important aspects to media and htpc like seq reads and writes.

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Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

So what is that supposed to prove? There isn't enough public failure rate data available to determine who's right. WD feels their WD Black storage platform is better with more/less dense platters while Seagate disagrees. WD feels they offer a superior product because of their design so they charge a premium for it. It also comes with a 5 year warranty opposed to the crapshoot you get from Seagate where you have to wait and see what warranty you get after you enter your serial into the warranty of mysteries page. It doesn't come down to just performance. Both players should know that at this point. If you have data that requires high performance (at a consumer level) that data probably doesn't require large capacity drives and you're going to use SSD anyway. The performance race for consumer level HDDs is pretty much dead. For me personally the solid warranty from WD is worth the extra money.

58% more money ?

lol.

You can buy two Seagates and keep one as a back up for less costs.

Your proving exactly what I hate about this debate. People just favor WD for BS reasons. The warranty is not worth 58% more, and nothing in the older less advanced design with more platters is worth paying more for. In fact- it's worth paying more for a modern drive with fewer platters, faster speeds, and better energy / heat and noise.

We disagree philosophically on this issue.

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