WD Red vs WD Green vs Seagate 3TB Hard Drive Speeds - Page 29 - AVS Forum
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post #841 of 853 Old 12-22-2013, 07:01 PM
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You want Seagate NAS drives for RAID array they support proper TLER setting for hardware RAID use. You can use Seagate normal in desktop "fake RAID" set ups but I'd generally avoid them for serious hardware RAID.

Something like flexraid or software RAID the cheaper Seagates are fine too.

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post #842 of 853 Old 12-22-2013, 09:01 PM
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If running the computer for long periods of time, would you recommend the NAS drives over the normal drives like 7200.14s and WD Greens?

Also can't seem to find a straight answer but do the WD Reds support TLER?

Thanks!
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post #843 of 853 Old 12-22-2013, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

If running the computer for long periods of time, would you recommend the NAS drives over the normal drives like 7200.14s and WD Greens?

Also can't seem to find a straight answer but do the WD Reds support TLER?

Thanks!
Kevin

I've seen various answers to the first question. Some will tell you it doesn't matter, but NAS drives are typically designed and warrantied for 24x7 use. Whether or not that makes a difference in real world applications is another thing entirely.

As for TLER, The WD Red drives have configurable TLER, which is to say that you can set how long the timeout is. (typically longer for normal desktop use, shorter for NAS/RAID use)

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post #844 of 853 Old 12-22-2013, 10:18 PM
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That's so weird that you just bumped this thread. I had searched for it a few minutes ago and was about to post...

I haven't read the entire thread, but but I would like to weigh in on my experience with the Seagate ST3000DM001 3TB Drives. In short, it was horrible.

To elaborate, I bought 8 of them to be used in a Sans Digital TRM8 storage enclosure connected via (included) HighPoint RocketRaid 622 controller. I added all 8 drives to a RAID-5 array, initialized and off I went. Everything seemed fine, but I noticed when copying data from some other drives, occasionally a drive would drop from the array. Sometimes this would force a rebuild, but typically it everything would be fine after a reboot, or a rescan of the drives. After it happened a few more times I RMA'ed the drive that failed, got a return, rebuilt the array again, and everything seemed fine... until I started copying large chucks of data over to the array, at which point it would fail again. Now suspecting there was something beyond a bad drive I contacted Sans Digital who informed me that it was probably an issue with TLER/ECR and that I might have to live with it if I stuck with those drives. They did provide me with an updated driver that was supposed to address issues with the port multiplier used in the enclosure, and it did improve the problem somewhat, (the errors were still reproducible, but it seemed like a rebuild was less likely after the driver update) Since I wasn't going to be copying 100+GB of data to the drive very often, and when I did need to do it, I could break it up into multiple chunks, I figured it would just be easier to live with, than to return them, and start over from scratch.

Fast forward a few months...

I'm moving some data (10GB) to the drive and it drops. Sigh. Bring it back up and it starts to rebuild. Gets to 59%, then drops again. Sigh. Repeat twice, Groan. I come to the conclusion that I have a bad drive. I get a new pair of ST3000DM001 (one to replace the bad one, and one as a spare) and plug in the replacement drive, and start to rebuild again. Get's to 95%, drops a different drive. Try again, same thing. (keep in mind, a full rebuild takes around 30 hours, so with all of the partial rebuilds going on this has taken up weeks now) After talking to Sans Digital and HighPoint support we came to the conclusion that one of the other drives had some sort of error that wouldn't allow the controller to continue rebuilding (despite having "continue on error" enabled) so I ended up having to take the array offline, pulling the drive with the error on it, doing a sector by sector copy to the new drive (another 20 hours... 1 of which was double, then triple checking to make sure that I wasn't going to overwrite the old drive with the new one) plugging in the new drive back into the array, crossing my fingers, and letting the rebuild start over again. Finally this morning everything was back to normal again.

So lessons learned from this...

1) Picking the Seagate drive was my own fault. I should have done more research before picking my hardware to make sure it would all work together.
2) Not all drives are created equally. While those Seagates are probably fine to stick into a computer and use for bulk storage, they aren't good for hardware/firmware RAID arrays.
3) With hard drive capacities where they're at right now, RAID (with parity) can be a pretty dicey proposition. Yes, theoretically, it will save you in the event of a a single drive failure, when you start getting into the tens of terabytes, the likelihood of having one or more sector failures becomes significant when looking at the error rates of consumer level drives. If you're unlucky enough to encounter such an error after I drive has died, then it might take some heroic measures to get your data back.

So I had been planning to repurpose these drives for a new 24 drive storage server, but it looks like they'll be retired soon, and I'll be going with some different drives moving forward. After this last experience, I'm thinking the WD Red drives may well be worth the extra expense. (to put it in perspective, I was also looking into tape backup options, and I asked myself while the array was down, if I'd pay $3500 to avoid dealing with this crap again, and it was an easy "yes" so I figure if I can pull the trigger on an LTO Autoloader, I can probably spring for the Red drives too)

Seagate 3TB drives work great. I use around 15 of them with three more waiting to be put into service. You just need to make sure you test them before using them. I had a couple of new ones that I needed to get replaced since they failed the Seagate Sea Tools test. But the drives that I've put into service have performed without issues in my unRAID setups and other devices.

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post #845 of 853 Old 12-22-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

If running the computer for long periods of time, would you recommend the NAS drives over the normal drives like 7200.14s and WD Greens?

Also can't seem to find a straight answer but do the WD Reds support TLER?

Thanks!
Kevin

I've been using Green WD and green Seagate drives for years now with no issues. I've used them in a WHS setup that had 31 drives and in three unRAID setups. AS well as a couple of RAID 5 setups and several RAID 1 setups.

EVen when I used to run my WHS 24/7 for over a year they caused me no issues. Although I don't run any of my setups 24/7 any more since electricity prices have jumped up alot and I only need them around six hours a day on average.

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post #846 of 853 Old 12-22-2013, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Seagate 3TB drives work great. I use around 15 of them with three more waiting to be put into service. You just need to make sure you test them before using them. I had a couple of new ones that I needed to get replaced since they failed the Seagate Sea Tools test. But the drives that I've put into service have performed without issues in my unRAID setups and other devices.

They're great for some uses, but not all. That was the point of my post. This had nothing to do with testing the drives prior to use. I had one drive that died prematurely. It wasn't an issue with defective media, it just refused to spin up after a while. It was a dud, which is going to happen from time to time. I'm not holding that against the entire line of drives.

Simply put, these drives are not suitable for use with a RAID controller that is expecting enterprise level drives.

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post #847 of 853 Old 12-23-2013, 05:34 AM
 
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Does anyone here actually serve movies for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? I would surmise everyone here does not, and it is actually closer to 4 hours a day maximum.
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post #848 of 853 Old 12-23-2013, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

They're great for some uses, but not all. That was the point of my post. This had nothing to do with testing the drives prior to use. I had one drive that died prematurely. It wasn't an issue with defective media, it just refused to spin up after a while. It was a dud, which is going to happen from time to time. I'm not holding that against the entire line of drives.

Simply put, these drives are not suitable for use with a RAID controller that is expecting enterprise level drives.


I agree.

You basically can use any drive in an HTPC or desktop without issues. It probably makes little sense to spend more on a WD RED or Seagate NAS drive for such uses. They won't be significantly more reliable in this type if set up, will likely cost more money, and will likely perform slower.

In a Hardware RAID set up you need hardware RAID specific drives (Seagate NAS, WD RED, or enterprise class 7200rpm drives) that will support TLER and have firmware designed to play nice with RAID. Basic consumer drives often have a conservative firmware setting for TLER which can cause the HDD to drop out of the array. If you wanted to use the drives in RAID you would want to update or change the firmware.

You can flash a WD GREEN to be more like a RED if you really wanted.

Most people don't understand any if this and marketing department have convinced consumers that something like a WD RED is more reliable when they really are not. They are basically the same. They are simply more appropriate in specific set ups (which makes them less appropriate in a media server running pooling and not hardware RAID or desktop and HTPC storage) such as Small Hardware RAID NAS arrays where they get limited cooling, high vibration, 24/7. For this you'd wanted a speed limited hard drive like a RED or SeaNAS that won't get too hot, and firmware supports your configuration.

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post #849 of 853 Old 12-23-2013, 05:52 AM
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As I mentioned I've been running green drives in RAID setups for many years. I have an INTEL hardware RAID 5 NAS that has had four WD green drives in it for four or more years. They have always run great in it without any hiccups. I might have had it even longer. I'm pretty sure this was my first larger storage device. It should pre date my first WHS setup which I think I got in 2009. I ran the INTEL NAS 24/7/365 for a long time without issues. But now I only turn it on periodically since it mainly holds my local music. But I converted it all to MP3s and transferred it to Amazon could storage so I could have access to all my music everywhere I go instead of the limited amount I used to only be able to carry with me.,

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post #850 of 853 Old 12-23-2013, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Does anyone here actually serve movies for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? I would surmise everyone here does not, and it is actually closer to 4 hours a day maximum.

Currently, I use a Synology DS1813+ for media storage, file storage, UniFi controller, and TimeCapsule backup. The i5 Intel NUC running XBMC used to run 24/7 when it was a WMC machine and used iSCSI on the DS1813+, so yes some systems are 24/7. Hence, I elected to use 4TB Seagate NAS drives.
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post #851 of 853 Old 12-23-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

As I mentioned I've been running green drives in RAID setups for many years. I have an INTEL hardware RAID 5 NAS that has had four WD green drives in it for four or more years. They have always run great in it without any hiccups. I might have had it even longer. I'm pretty sure this was my first larger storage device. It should pre date my first WHS setup which I think I got in 2009. I ran the INTEL NAS 24/7/365 for a long time without issues. But now I only turn it on periodically since it mainly holds my local music. But I converted it all to MP3s and transferred it to Amazon could storage so I could have access to all my music everywhere I go instead of the limited amount I used to only be able to carry with me.,

Unless its a model I'm unaware of (very possible) all the Intel NAS boxes I've found from the last few years are doing software RAID, not Hardware.

Also, if it was assembled 4 (or more) years ago, the likelihood of encountering a NRE/URE was much lower as drive capacities were significantly smaller. You could get away with it because the event that triggered the problems (an NRE) wasn't likely to occur. With modern large capacity drives, it's not really an issue of likelihood, so much as it is an inevitability. To be very clear, this doesn't have anything to do with defective drives. This is something that happens when operating within the manufacture's specifications.

I'm glad that you've had success with all of your storage setups. I've had countless RAID arrays at home over the years. (Starting with a Mylex DAC960 UW SCSI controller and 4x 2GB Barracuda drives, and since then I've used about every brand of controller, drive, and flavor of SCSI, IDE, SATA and SAS) So this isn't my first rodeo either. And I had little to no trouble out of the vast majority of those setups. But I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the consumer drives with an enterprise controller because of my own experience. I'm saying that my own experience lead me to research what happened, and I found the reasons why you shouldn't use those drives with those controllers.

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post #852 of 853 Old 12-23-2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Does anyone here actually serve movies for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? I would surmise everyone here does not, and it is actually closer to 4 hours a day maximum.

Right now I have two RAID arrays. One is on my storage server, and it is used probably 16 hours on a typical day, and the other is connected directly to my workstation, and it is used constantly.

No I'm not typical, but there are plenty of people out there using their storage often enough to keep it spun-up 24/7.

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post #853 of 853 Old 12-23-2013, 01:27 PM
 
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Well there you go, I did not expect so many to be serving files all day and night.
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