HD PVR 2 1512 Owners Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 605 Old 01-18-2016, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
... I just always set it to max simply because I know I'll be reencoding it after editing anyway, so there's no point in going lower at capture.
You can use ffmpeg or other lossless editor to edit without re-encoding. The quality penalty for re-encoding long GOP video formats is quite high, and should be avoided whenever possible.
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post #452 of 605 Old 01-18-2016, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
You can use ffmpeg or other lossless editor to edit without re-encoding. The quality penalty for re-encoding long GOP video formats is quite high, and should be avoided whenever possible.
Right, I only re-encode after editing, right before uploading, and I always use a high quality crf setting in x264 (18-20) for that. Lossless is nice, but would make uploads huge for very little benefit in the end. I often make full length movies from video game footage, so my final files are already quite large (20GB+)

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post #453 of 605 Old 01-18-2016, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
Right, I only re-encode after editing, right before uploading, and I always use a high quality crf setting in x264 (18-20) for that. Lossless is nice, but would make uploads huge for very little benefit in the end.
I wasn't talking about a lossless codec, like HuffYUV or Lagarith, but lossless editing. In other words, once your video has been rendered and has been encoded with a codec that does compression, you can still do "cuts-only" editing which can cut out sections of video, but without doing any re-encoding. This is a "lossless" edit because none of the bits of your original video have been altered. However, you have to use the right tools, like ffmpeg, VideoRedo, etc. in order to do this magic.
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post #454 of 605 Old 01-18-2016, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
I wasn't talking about a lossless codec, like HuffYUV or Lagarith, but lossless editing. In other words, once your video has been rendered and has been encoded with a codec that does compression, you can still do "cuts-only" editing which can cut out sections of video, but without doing any re-encoding. This is a "lossless" edit because none of the bits of your original video have been altered. However, you have to use the right tools, like ffmpeg, VideoRedo, etc. in order to do this magic.
Oh yes I know that. I rarely have need of that, but when I do, I like to use Avidemux set to copy mode for both video and audio. You can select sections and cut them pretty easily.

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post #455 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
Oh yes I know that. I rarely have need of that, but when I do, I like to use Avidemux set to copy mode for both video and audio. You can select sections and cut them pretty easily.

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I also use Avidemux 2.6 in copy mode but it always crashes unless I select AVI as the output format. (Many others also have noted this.) What's been your experience with, say, using TS as the output format?
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post #456 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 12:25 PM
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BTW, I did discover one very interesting anomaly, and this is not in the manual: when using Hauppauge capture, if you choose MP4 as the output container, the capture program will create a variable framerate video. How horrible! There is nothing good about variable framerate and all sorts of bad things about it. So, bottom line, if you own one of these things, don't capture to MP4.
Huh? You mean varying from, say, 60fps to 30 or 24? How did you determine this?,
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post #457 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 12:45 PM
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I also use Avidemux 2.6 in copy mode but it always crashes unless I select AVI as the output format. (Many others also have noted this.) What's been your experience with, say, using TS as the output format?
I have had it crash before in TS I think (not always though), but I usually use MKV.

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post #458 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 12:48 PM
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Huh? You mean varying from, say, 60fps to 30 or 24? How did you determine this?,
Variable frame rate allows different frames to last different lengths. It's often used to optimize encoding for videos where there are duplicate frames. For example, if you capture at 60fps, but the source is only displaying at 30fps, the end result file should be 30fps instead of 60fps.

The problem is, it's not reliable, and doesn't result in a single frame rate output, but one that changes over time, so many video editors don't like the format, causing sync issues and other problems.

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post #459 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 03:40 PM
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Huh? You mean varying from, say, 60fps to 30 or 24? How did you determine this?,
Two ways.

First, I put the video file into Mediainfo. Here are the relevant lines from the report it generates:
Code:
Frame rate mode                  : Variable
Frame rate                       : 25.213 fps
Original frame rate              : 29.970 fps
As you can see, Hauppauge Capture has altered the frame rate, and not only is it no longer the original 29.97 frame rate, but it is a variable frame rate. The weird frame rate number is actually the average.

The second way I determined this is to put the video into Sony Vegas Pro, my NLE. I set Vegas to accept a standard 29.97 fps video file, but turned off its "resample" capability. Resample is the way Vegas adapts other frame rate video to 29.97 fps. With it turned off, the only way Vegas can adapt is to repeat or skip frames.

With a normal 29.97 fps video (like those created by the capture application when you select .TS or .M2TS), each time you press the right arrow, Vegas advances by one frame. There is also a trick in Vegas that can be used to display just one field at a time. When I did this, some fields barely advanced in time from the previous field. There was also field blending. Not good at all.
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post #460 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
Two ways.

First, I put the video file into Mediainfo. Here are the relevant lines from the report it generates:
Code:
Frame rate mode                  : Variable
Frame rate                       : 25.213 fps
Original frame rate              : 29.970 fps
As you can see, Hauppauge Capture has altered the frame rate, and not only is it no longer the original 29.97 frame rate, but it is a variable frame rate. The weird frame rate number is actually the average.

The second way I determined this is to put the video into Sony Vegas Pro, my NLE. I set Vegas to accept a standard 29.97 fps video file, but turned off its "resample" capability. Resample is the way Vegas adapts other frame rate video to 29.97 fps. With it turned off, the only way Vegas can adapt is to repeat or skip frames.

With a normal 29.97 fps video (like those created by the capture application when you select .TS or .M2TS), each time you press the right arrow, Vegas advances by one frame. There is also a trick in Vegas that can be used to display just one field at a time. When I did this, some fields barely advanced in time from the previous field. There was also field blending. Not good at all.

Thanks, very interesting. Is this anywhere in the MP4 file format protocol? When you watch a variable frame rate video, what is the visual effect of the varying frame rate, i.e. is it readily perceptible?
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post #461 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 06:45 PM
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Thanks, very interesting. Is this anywhere in the MP4 file format protocol? When you watch a variable frame rate video, what is the visual effect of the varying frame rate, i.e. is it readily perceptible?
Pretty much all streaming video is variable framerate. In fact, that is why it exists. Why is it needed for streaming? Because bandwidth conditions change from moment to moment, and there is no guarantee at the video server that the bits being sent out will get to the destination in time. Some of this is handled by buffering the video, but even then, the server sometimes has to start sending out fewer frames in order to not fall behind.

So, you've seen the effect pretty much every time you watch YouTube, whether you realized what you were seeing, or not.

However, for capturing video from a game box or from a DVR, variable frame rate has no place in the equation, IMHO, and I think it is a bug. I have reported it as such to Hauppauge.
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post #462 of 605 Old 01-19-2016, 07:34 PM
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Pretty much all streaming video is variable framerate. In fact, that is why it exists. Why is it needed for streaming? Because bandwidth conditions change from moment to moment, and there is no guarantee at the video server that the bits being sent out will get to the destination in time. Some of this is handled by buffering the video, but even then, the server sometimes has to start sending out fewer frames in order to not fall behind.

So, you've seen the effect pretty much every time you watch YouTube, whether you realized what you were seeing, or not.

However, for capturing video from a game box or from a DVR, variable frame rate has no place in the equation, IMHO, and I think it is a bug. I have reported it as such to Hauppauge.
Variable frame rate can make more efficient use of bitrate. It can be quite a good idea if you don't have to worry about editing the video later, or if the editor supports variable frame rate without trouble. In fact, even Adobe Premiere can output in variable frame rate with the option "optimize stills". Basically, if the encoder sees that the next frame looks identical to the previous one, it just extends the duration of the last frame instead of encoding a new one.

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post #463 of 605 Old 01-25-2016, 03:17 PM
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The Hauppauge Capture application produces corrupt .TS files when capturing long files.

I have now read every post in this long thread and it seems that almost half the posts talk about using TSMuxer, TSDoctor, VideoRedo's Quickstream Fix, etc. to fix the files captured by this application.

This is not right, especially after the product has been on the market for 2+ years.

Here is my current problem:

I'm using the Hauppauge Capture application with my 1512 PVR. I am using default settings, with the encoding set to Variable at full bitrate (14 Mbps). I am recording using the .TS setting. I am recording to my main editing computer via a hardwired network connection over a 1 Gbps network with no other users. I have the latest Capture drivers and updates (December 2015). I am capturing via Component from my Cisco ISB7500 DVR. The audio is captured via optical.

When I record short 10-30 second test clips, these load and play fine in Windows Media Player, VLC, Sony Vegas (versions 10 and above), VideoRedo, and more. I can capture AC-3 5.1. This is good.

However, when I do a "real" recording of a TV show that is 1-3 hours long, that file will not load and play in anything except for the VLC video player. It hard crashes everything else.

I have tried cutting the first 10 seconds of the file, using the Edit tab in the Capture application, but the resulting file still doesn't work. I have tried to convert to MP4, but I immediately get a Runtime error, and the Capture application crashes.

Finally, I tried recording directly to MP4 rather .TS, but found out that there is a major, undocumented problem with MP4, namely that Hauppauge Capture, when set to record to MP4 records in variable framerate. Thus, instead of getting a 29.97 fps, the frame rate speeds up and slows down, resulting in a weird average rate (e.g., 29.82). The resulting file cannot be reliably edited, and results in horrible-looking video. I understand the need for variable framerate for streaming, but I don't see how it should ever be used for hard drive capture. This issue was first revealed, in this thread almost two years ago, here:

Variable Framerate

It has not yet been fixed or changed.

Also, this is not the first time in this thread that someone speculated that the length of the capture might be causing corruption. See this post:

Long Capture Corruption

I am now doing step-by-step troubleshooting, something that is really difficult, because I have to capture for a long time (at least an hour) to make the problem appear. I am first capturing to the local hard drive on my laptop rather than directly to my editing station via the LAN. If that doesn't result in a good file, I'll try Constant Bitrate rather than Variable, because some people have suggested it might create a more compatible file.

No reply yet from Hauppauge, although they usually do respond within a day or two.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to make this work?

BTW, in my earlier posts about interference patterns on my capture, I have now ruled out cables as being the cause, and now believe that I have some sort of a ground loop (my home theater is a complicated setup). That's a bummer because ground loops are a bear to troubleshoot.
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post #464 of 605 Old 01-25-2016, 03:47 PM
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The Hauppauge Capture application produces corrupt .TS files when capturing long files.
I finally gave up fighting with it. I routinely run every file HC generates through ViderReDo's Quickstream fixer. I don't really even think about it. I just had to offload a lot of stuff from a DVR, which is a PITA since it's all real-time. I'd just start Quickstream on the one file while capturing the next. You're right, of course. It should have been fixed. Then, again, it's pretty obvious the 1512 is being targeted toward the gaming crowd and AFAIK, they don't seem to be chiming in with similar issues.

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post #465 of 605 Old 01-25-2016, 04:12 PM
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I occasionally run into a problem, but I regularly record 1-2 hour captures through HC as TS, and most of the time they work just fine.

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post #466 of 605 Old 01-25-2016, 04:56 PM
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I occasionally run into a problem, but I regularly record 1-2 hour captures through HC as TS, and most of the time they work just fine.
What settings are you using? Variable or Constant bitrate? Are you capturing using component or HDMI? Have you made any changes (that you can remember) to any of the Advanced settings?
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post #467 of 605 Old 01-25-2016, 05:19 PM
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What settings are you using? Variable or Constant bitrate? Are you capturing using component or HDMI? Have you made any changes (that you can remember) to any of the Advanced settings?
Variable bitrate @ max, profile high, level 4.2, latency high.

I almost always record HDMI, although I have done component as well. Sometimes record dolby digital and sometimes not.

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post #468 of 605 Old 01-26-2016, 01:18 PM
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After 4-5 hours of recapturing and lots of hair pulling I have found one (but not all) of the causes of the problems I am having. The capture app apparently switches between AC-3 stereo and AC-3 5.1 and when it does, it creates a discontinuity that many programs cannot handle. There does not seem to be a way to "lock" the encoding into AC-3.
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post #469 of 605 Old 01-26-2016, 01:22 PM
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After 4-5 hours of recapturing and lots of hair pulling I have found one (but not all) of the causes of the problems I am having. The capture app apparently switches between AC-3 stereo and AC-3 5.1 and when it does, it creates a discontinuity that many programs cannot handle. There does not seem to be a way to "lock" the encoding into AC-3.
On a recent project most of my recordings were 5.1 AC3, but one of them was stereo AC3. Adobe Premiere still read the stream as 5.1 AC3 but sound was only coming out of the left and right front channels. I just assumed it was an issue with my ps4, but other than funky audio channels it didn't really affect my editing.

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post #470 of 605 Old 01-29-2016, 05:51 PM
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Update

I did several captures from my XBox using HDMI rather than the component/optical inputs. These captures had no problems: they loaded and played in all applications, and running the video through VideoRedo's "QuickStream Fix" produced zero errors. I did not need to use QuickStream Fix, but I wanted to see if it would find any problems. When doing captures from the component/optical inputs, QuickStream Fix not only fixed those captures so they wouldn't crash my software, but it also produced huge numbers of errors.

With the HDMI captures, it found no errors.

To be clear, the only change I made was to plug in the HDMI cable from the XBox, change the video and audio inputs in the Hauppauge Capture application to HDMI, and I then started the capture. I made absolutely no changes to any capture settings whatsoever, other than what I just described.

This confirms that the problem is faulty Hauppauge software when used to capture component video. I just sent them a really long description of the things I have documented in my last few posts. Hopefully they can find the problem.

Last edited by johnmeyer; 01-29-2016 at 05:52 PM. Reason: typo that I didn't catch during Preview
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post #471 of 605 Old 01-29-2016, 05:54 PM
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Awesome job figuring out the issue! Hopefully Hauppauge fixes it.

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post #472 of 605 Old 02-02-2016, 07:39 AM
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johnmeyer,

You mention capturing via HDMI doesn't have an issue? Unfortunately I've run into it when capturing via HDMI too.
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post #473 of 605 Old 02-02-2016, 11:51 AM
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I wrote to Hauppauge tech support four days ago (two of them business days). I have not received any reply from them. I did have one other problem three weeks ago when I first used the product, and they responded quickly to that question. I can't explain why this is taking longer, although I suppose it might indicate that it really is a design flaw, and they have no solution to offer.

I'm waiting another week until I post my review on Amazon. I want to give them a fair chance to fix this.
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post #474 of 605 Old 02-03-2016, 06:03 AM
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I wrote to Hauppauge tech support four days ago (two of them business days). I have not received any reply from them. I did have one other problem three weeks ago when I first used the product, and they responded quickly to that question. I can't explain why this is taking longer, although I suppose it might indicate that it really is a design flaw, and they have no solution to offer.

I'm waiting another week until I post my review on Amazon. I want to give them a fair chance to fix this.
@johnmeyer ,

Have you found a "reliable" (even if long) process to fix the files and make them editable? I've run into a few captures where running the files through VideoRedo's QSF, it sits there with "calculating time" and a big yellow exclamation point on the progress box.. and never completes. Unfortunately, I found out after they were deleted from my DVR, so I can't try capturing again. One program still on the DVR errors the same way after capturing again.
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post #475 of 605 Old 02-03-2016, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
I wrote to Hauppauge tech support four days ago (two of them business days). I have not received any reply from them. I did have one other problem three weeks ago when I first used the product, and they responded quickly to that question. I can't explain why this is taking longer, although I suppose it might indicate that it really is a design flaw, and they have no solution to offer.

I'm waiting another week until I post my review on Amazon. I want to give them a fair chance to fix this.
@johnmeyer ,

Have you found a "reliable" (even if long) process to fix the files and make them editable? I've run into a few captures where running the files through VideoRedo's QSF, it sits there with "calculating time" and a big yellow exclamation point on the progress box.. and never completes. Unfortunately, I found out after they were deleted from my DVR, so I can't try capturing again. One program still on the DVR errors the same way after capturing again.

I'm about to purchase TS Doctor ( € 29,90 comes out to about $33 USD), since it worked on the two or three files I ran through it during the trial period. I don't know if there is a free, less expensive or better alternative. And I'm not sure how the international purchase might work...
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post #476 of 605 Old 02-03-2016, 02:34 PM
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I would use TSremux before paying for TSdoctor. It's free. It fixes most of the timecode issues this device creates..

http://www.videohelp.com/software/TsRemux

Do your corrupt files show incorrect durations in windows properties?
Doesn't tsdoctor offer a trial version?
http://www.videohelp.com/software/TS-Doctor

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post #477 of 605 Old 02-03-2016, 08:54 PM
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I would use TSremux before paying for TSdoctor. It's free. It fixes most of the timecode issues this device creates..

http://www.videohelp.com/software/TsRemux

Do your corrupt files show incorrect durations in windows properties?
Doesn't tsdoctor offer a trial version?
http://www.videohelp.com/software/TS-Doctor
Will try TSremux.

Yes, incorrect durations are shown in windows properties. VideoRedo wont allow me to edit them, and VideoReDo's Quick Stream Fix either hangs or errors on them.

Yes, TSDoctor has a trial version, I only did a couple of captures since installing it. Those that errored this way (about 3 that I had) were fixed with TSDoctor. But the trial is up... so now its either pay for it as a tool to use when needed, or find an alternative until (or IF/when) Hauppauge can address this such that fixing the captures isn't necessary.

EDIT: TSremux didn't work. The output file was not playable, and I could not open it in VideoRedo. I have purchased TS-Doctor 2.0. Just got the key, and it worked fine to fix the file. I can open it in VideoRedo QSF doesn't report problems, and I can edit/save it.

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post #478 of 605 Old 02-06-2016, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
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I would use TSremux before paying for TSdoctor. It's free. It fixes most of the timecode issues this device creates..

http://www.videohelp.com/software/TsRemux

Do your corrupt files show incorrect durations in windows properties?
Doesn't tsdoctor offer a trial version?
http://www.videohelp.com/software/TS-Doctor
TSRemux works well for me; the only issue is if the audio stream is not AC-3 then TSRemux will not remux the audio and so you are left with no audio.
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post #479 of 605 Old 02-06-2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_Venture View Post
I have purchased TS-Doctor 2.0. Just got the key, and it worked fine to fix the file. I can open it in VideoRedo QSF doesn't report problems, and I can edit/save it.
TSdoctor creates a log file - What were the issues with the file? Were there errors & warnings?
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post #480 of 605 Old 02-07-2016, 08:33 AM
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I have issues with interpreting the TS Doctor log file. When it gives errors and warnings they can be traced to specific times in the file, but there are other subtle errors that VideoRedo reports better in it's log file.

Example: Last night I played a two hour program on my Cable DVR and set my Hauppauge PVR-2 to record it, then I went to bed. In the morning I ran the file through TSDoctor and got no errors. There were warnings about the audio changing from 2.0 to 5.1 and back at the beginning and end of the program, which is normal. I used VideoRedo to trim the unwanted portions from the beginning and end. The VideoRedo summary indicated that 32 audio frames were dropped. I was able to locate the spot, some 50 minutes into the program by reading the VideoRedo log file. The video pixelated and jumped a bit at that spot. (I didn't save the TSDoctor log file)

I checked the program on the DVR and it was clean, something happened during playback. Question is, was it the Hauppauge, the capture software, the DVR, or the computer?
I will repeat the whole thing again tonight as I am a perfectionist at times. I could even re-record the offending section and cut it into the file I have, but seems like too much work.

Anyway, using TSDoctor and VideoRedo together has worked for me. Can't imagine one without the other.

Edit: I re-recorded the two hour program without any problems. VideoRedo reported that a total of 12 frames were dropped, two frames at a time at various points. This seems typical for a two hour program.

Last edited by Engineer99; 02-08-2016 at 09:49 AM. Reason: update
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