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post #1 of 70 Old 03-16-2013, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

Currently use Windows Media Center for live TV, with the Media Browser plugin for browsing my movies and TV shows.

I was wondering if anyone knew of a way to make it switch to 24hz for 24p content automatically, or at least give me a quick way of changing? If not, are there any external players I could use with Media Browser that can automatically detect 24p content and switch the refresh rate?

Thanks guys.
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post #2 of 70 Old 03-16-2013, 01:54 PM
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Couple of options for auto refresh rate switching:

1) VBS script with reclock. This might work with Media Center directly, not sure.

2) Use MPC-HC as an external player for Media Browser and use its built in refresh switcher.

3) Use MPC-HC as an external player for Media Browser and use MadVR as the renderer and use the auto refresh feature it offers. This is what I currently use as it seems to be the most reliable and easiest to set up.
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post #3 of 70 Old 03-16-2013, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks JDLive.

If I setup MPC-HC as an external player, will it play all content in the external player, or can I make it only open for certain content only (i.e everything in my Movies folder, but not everything in my TV folder)?

Why is it better to use MadVR as the renderer instead of using the inbuilt switching? Is the inbuilt feature automatic as well, or manual?

I currently use Shark's Codec Pack, will MadVR interfere with that?

Finally, would I have to write my own script with ReClock, or is there a script already knocking about somewhere?

Thanks for the information, and sorry for all the questions!
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post #4 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 07:04 AM
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If you're using Media Browser, you can specify within its config which file types (i.e. MKV, AVI) to play with the external player and which to just use MC's internal player. I don't think you can do it by folder, but I haven't tried.

I don't know that using MadVR is any better for you, but I found it was more reliable when trying to get the automatic refresh rate switching to work.

I don't use codec packs so can't respond on that question.

There is a sample script included with Reclock (or there was last time I used it), probably plenty of examples out there if you google. Or visit their forum on slysoft.com.
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post #5 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 08:38 AM
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To use madVR, you need tyo use a player that supports it. If you use a MPC-HC version downloaded from the developer HERE, you will not need to do any player configuration to continue to use the installed codecs, although you will need to select madVR as the renderer for the player under its menu's, View | Options | Player | Output after installing madVR. On my Tools page, you'll find a new fork of mpc-hc called MPC-BE with madVR included and setup for use along with the player installation.

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post #6 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 08:56 AM
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You can do refresh rate switching within WMC using MyMovies, although it requires a $100 contribution. Otherwise you can use an external player like MPC-HC.
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post #7 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 10:21 AM
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could it be theoretically possible for a video card to be set up to automatically match the output to the framerate of a given video when played in full screen?

the first gpu maker to do that would be the instant htpc king

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post #8 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

could it be theoretically possible for a video card to be set up to automatically match the output to the framerate of a given video when played in full screen?

the first gpu maker to do that would be the instant htpc king

If you figure this out please let us know wink.gif
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post #9 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Cheers, thanks for the information guys.

So just to confirm Shark, I could either download MPC-BE from your website, and it'll work fine, or I should download and install the developer version and then download MadVR and set MPC to use MadVR?
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post #10 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xreyuk View Post

Cheers, thanks for the information guys.

So just to confirm Shark, I could either download MPC-BE from your website, and it'll work fine, or I should download and install the developer version and then download MadVR and set MPC to use MadVR?

correct.
keep in mind though, only the dev version I linked to will work without any codec configuration what-so-ever.
if you were to get mpc-hc from any other source, the installed codecs would not be used without properly configuring the player to use them.

Use Shark007 Codecs and retain your sanity.
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post #11 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Brilliant, thanks Shark.
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post #12 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I forgot to ask.

Do I need the MPC-BE file and the MPC-BE MadVR file as well?

Is there any configuration that needs doing, or should I just set this up as an external player and be on my way?
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post #13 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 04:11 PM
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From my tools page, MPC-BE with madVR in the filename is ready to go, as is.
Just install it and it will use the installed codecs for decoding and madVR for rendering.

I am not a madVR user and have no idea or any suggestions to help you optimize its setup.
There are many threads on this forum with idea's and suggestions to assist you with setting up madVR beyond default.
During playback, a madVR icon shows up in the systray allowing configuration.

Use Shark007 Codecs and retain your sanity.
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post #14 of 70 Old 03-17-2013, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Shark, that's brilliant. Appreciate your help.

It appears thought that I can't see much difference between 50hz and 24hz playback on my TV. I even made sure by setting the resolution manually and trying both VLC and MPC-HC, but I still see slight jerky-ness on panning shots on 24p content. I've tried setting the screen as 23p and 24p just to make sure as well.

After reading the forums it appears many people can't seem to get proper 24p playback.
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post #15 of 70 Old 03-18-2013, 09:17 AM
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Yes, it's good to get 24p working before spending time to get automatic switching working. smile.gif

24p works great for me, I have smooth playback and only 1 frame drop every few hours or so. What video card are you using? IIRC AMD/ATI (which I have) works very well with standard resolution settings, if you have nVidia it may require a custom res. Could also depend on your display, too.
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post #16 of 70 Old 03-18-2013, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDLIVE View Post

Yes, it's good to get 24p working before spending time to get automatic switching working. smile.gif

24p works great for me, I have smooth playback and only 1 frame drop every few hours or so. What video card are you using? IIRC AMD/ATI (which I have) works very well with standard resolution settings, if you have nVidia it may require a custom res. Could also depend on your display, too.

I have an Intel Core i5 3570K which I'm using the inbuilt graphics for, displaying to a 40" Samsung LED Backlit TV (UE40EH5000 model).

Any ideas what I could try?
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post #17 of 70 Old 03-18-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xreyuk View Post

It appears thought that I can't see much difference between 50hz and 24hz playback on my TV. I even made sure by setting the resolution manually and trying both VLC and MPC-HC, but I still see slight jerky-ness on panning shots on 24p content. I've tried setting the screen as 23p and 24p just to make sure as well.

It looks like you are talking about "film judder" (jerky-ness because of a low frame rate of film contents). One way to remedy it is increase the frame rate by interpolation, such as SVP (Smooth Video Project).
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post #18 of 70 Old 03-19-2013, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I see, is it just a simple case of installing the SVP files and it takes care of itself, or does it require configuration?

Thanks for your input.
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post #19 of 70 Old 03-19-2013, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to add to the thread, I set it up so that MadVR did the auto switching and played Lord of the Rings.

The judder/stutter was very noticeable during panning scenes, no better than leaving my TV at 50hz. Some other parts appeared to be a little bit smoother, but as far as I could tell, there was no difference between me playing the movie in 23.796 (24p) or 50hz.

I used Ctrl J to run the MadVR stats, and it showed the actual refresh rate was 23.72... so was slightly off the proper 23.796, and was showing 1 dropped frame per 5 minutes.

So is there anyway I can reduce this because at the moment I can't even tell the difference between having the screen at 23/24hz than having it at 50hz.
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post #20 of 70 Old 03-19-2013, 09:36 PM
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1 dropped frame per 5 minutes

This literally means that there will be 1 dropped frame per 5 minutes because of a mismatch between the media playback rate (23.976Hz) and the refresh rate (23.972Hz):

1/(23.976Hz-23.972Hz) = 250 sec = 4.17 min.

(The media playback rate is actually modified by audio clock, so madVR OSD is correct.) A dropped/repeated frame every few minutes is *to be* recognized as a slight stutter every few minutes. As you can imagine easily, this has nothing to do with jerkiness in a panning (that lasts only a few seconds). To avoid this type of dropped / repeated frames, you will need to use ReClock or VideoClock @24Hz [that will adjust the media playback rate to the refresh rate so that they are exactly identical], or use madVR's smooth motion frame rate changer (FRC) @50 or 60Hz [that will insert frames created by blending].)

There are two reasons for jerkiness in panning:

1. Pulldown judder: When you play a 24 fps content at 60Hz, frames are repeated (so called "pulldown") unevenly:

- The original video stream: F0 F1 F2 F3 ... (F=frame), 24 frames per second
- The displayed video stream: F0 F0 F0 (three times) F1 F1 (twice) F2 F2 F2 (three times) F3 F3 (twice) ..., 60 frames per second

Note that 24 x [(3+2)/2] = 60. People often recognize unevenness as jerkiness. At 50Hz, the repetition pattern is more complex. A solution is play a 24fps content at 24Hz. Another solution is madVR's smooth motion FRC.

2. Film judder: Simply 24 frames per second is not high enough for some people to feel the playback as smooth. A solution is increase the frame rate by creating *new* frames by interpolation. Some display devices have an internal engine for frame interpolation. You can do this in your PC by using, for example, SVP.

Not everybody is bothered with either type of judder. It looks like you don't mind pulldown judder, but mind film judder.
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post #21 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 07:21 AM
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I cannot stand pull-down judder because it is un-even. Film Judder, OTH, is apparent even in the theater and having a bit of it on pans is okay for me. YMMV.

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post #22 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the great explanation renethx, I really appreciate.

I think the judder I am seeing when at 24p is just film judder as you say. I inserted the disc in my PS3 and watched the same scene at 24p, and it looked identical to 24p on my HTPC.

The pulldown judder will be slightly different in my case. As I use my HTPC for live TV and I live in the UK, the default setting for my HTPC is 50hz, so I definitely see judder, and can now notice the difference after spending more time comparing the two.

If it starts to get annoying, I will look at the frame interpolation software.

Do you recommend frame interpolation? I mean, does it look perfectly smooth?

Thanks again guys.
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post #23 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 11:10 AM
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Smooth Frame Rate Correction is in madVR version 0.86.1 but madVR will also allow you to change to the frame rate of the source (23.976fps Blu-ray) if your monitor supports it. If it is a 50Hz monitor it may not support 24Hz as there is no easy multiplier unless it is a 600Hz plasma.

Smooth Frame Rate Correction is very smooth. I have some 25fps stuff that does not look pretty on my 24/60/120 Hz Samsung without using it.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1459449/madvr-v0-86-0-released-with-smooth-motion

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post #24 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xreyuk View Post

Do you recommend frame interpolation? I mean, does it look perfectly smooth?

You'd better see yourself:

- Original film @23.976fps
- Video @59.94fps created from the above by frame interpolation ("InterFrame")

SVP does this in real-time.
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post #25 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 12:08 PM
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Just about all new 120hz tvs do that too.

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post #26 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 12:27 PM
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Yes, but smooth frame rate correction is much less cartoon-like. I know because I have used both.

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post #27 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 12:40 PM
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thats your opinion, not a blanket statement of fact.

depending on the tv model you might have a wide range of controls for exactly what it does in 120hz interpolation mode. and its much easier to set up and allows you to use the player of your choosing (ie x64 WMC) without needing a higher end graphics card.

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post #28 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Smooth Frame Rate Correction is in madVR version 0.86.1 but madVR will also allow you to change to the frame rate of the source (23.976fps Blu-ray) if your monitor supports it. If it is a 50Hz monitor it may not support 24Hz as there is no easy multiplier unless it is a 600Hz plasma.

Smooth Frame Rate Correction is very smooth. I have some 25fps stuff that does not look pretty on my 24/60/120 Hz Samsung without using it.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1459449/madvr-v0-86-0-released-with-smooth-motion

Hi Sammy. My HTPC is hooked up to a TV that is capable of 24hz, 50hz and 60hz, but obviously live TV in the UK is 50hz, that's why it's default mode is 50hz, because I use my HTPC for my Live TV. That's why I wanted auto switching. I have my live and recorded TV in 50hz, most of my films in 24hz, and then the odd TV show in 60hz or 24hz. So depending on the content, there is a lot of refresh rate switching going on.

Is smooth frame rate correction the same thing as SVP below?
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

You'd better see yourself:

- Original film @23.976fps
- Video @59.94fps created from the above by frame interpolation ("InterFrame")

SVP does this in real-time.

Thanks Renethx, I'll have a look at this properly on my HTPC and post back when I've watched it.

With regards to SVP then, as I usually view in 50hz, and not 60hz, is there anyway to make MadVR switch anything that isn't 50hz, to 59/60hz? Then I can use the frame interpolation? What I mean is, if I want to use frame interpolation, when I start 24p content can I make it switch to 60hz instead of 24hz so I can use SVP correctly?
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post #29 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Just about all new 120hz tvs do that too.

Of course his TV (Samsung UE40EH5000) can't do that, that's why we are talking about a PC solution...
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post #30 of 70 Old 03-21-2013, 12:55 PM
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renethx probably knows better than I do but I think that the Smooth Frame Rate Correction in madVR is forked from the Smooth Video Project.

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