Should I wait for Haswell? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 251 Old 06-03-2013, 11:53 AM
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PCIe is a must have for me, my avermedia duet fits that slot. To make a board with only one slot and then make it an old pci slot is ludicrous.
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post #92 of 251 Old 06-03-2013, 05:45 PM
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Looking to build a new Haswell desktop for work (non-HTPC use). Anyone else doing the same and if so what are you using?
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post #93 of 251 Old 06-03-2013, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Looking to build a new Haswell desktop for work (non-HTPC use). Anyone else doing the same and if so what are you using?

I wish I could find an excuse !!! I have a 3570k in my HTPC and a 2600K in my desktop. I simply just don't need it yet. tongue.gif

I might go i7 on Z87 and use that as my desktop, use my current desktop for work PC. But I am in process of designing a dedicated theater and doing a remodel so I think it's smart to wait and save my cash.

When is the new LGA2011 replacement due? is there anything coming positioned above Haswell ?

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post #94 of 251 Old 06-03-2013, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I wish I could find an excuse !!! I have a 3570k in my HTPC and a 2600K in my desktop. I simply just don't need it yet. tongue.gif

I might go i7 on Z87 and use that as my desktop, use my current desktop for work PC. But I am in process of designing a dedicated theater and doing a remodel so I think it's smart to wait and save my cash.

When is the new LGA2011 replacement due? is there anything coming positioned above Haswell ?

LGA2011 replacement will be an Ivy Bridge part and they will come out H2 of 2013. Performance will be greater than Haswell, I believe the current SandyBridge LGA2011 parts perform better than Haswell too. However they all have 125W TDP....

I will be replacing my aging Phenom II x4 and Geforce 460 GTX full size ATX desktop with a mini ITX Haswell setup. I would love to take advantage of the quad channel memory of the LGA2011 socket/x79 chipset but I just don't want to build another full size tower now that I've moved into a city and live in an apartment. Also, with summer here I'm facing the harsh reality that my A/C can't keep up with the heat! A big hot tower in my place really isn't going to help that.

NCASE M1 crowdfunded mini tower: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1717132
Intel Core i7-4770 Haswell CPU
EVGA 03G-P4-2781-KR GeForce GTX 780 Graphics Card
ASRock Z87E-ITX Motherboard
Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3 1600 RAM
SILVERSTONE ST45SF-G 450W PSU
Plextor M5M PX-256M5M mSATA 256GB SSD
CPU cooling TBD
Price ~$2,000

Also, I will likely replace my first gen i3 HTPC with some sort of integrated low power Haswell board (a NUC anyone?) somewhere down the line
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post #95 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty2k1 View Post

I believe the current SandyBridge LGA2011 parts perform better than Haswell too.

Yes and no, mostly no.
The only real advantage the SNB-E CPUs have is that you can get 6 and 8 core (8 cores are Xeon only, and mighty expensive). So while it may be faster on very highly threaded applications that can actually make use of all the cores, in many real world applications the "old" Sandy Bridge core will show its age.

AnandTech has a i7-3960X in their comparisons, which is a LGA 2011 Sandy Bridge with 6 cores (and costs $999 MSRP)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/6 (scroll to the gaming benchmarks)

In short: If you need massive parallel performance the 6 or 8 threads can offer, and you have $999 (or more for 8 cores) to spend on a CPU, then LGA 2011 might be for you.
If you don't, stick to the normal CPUs wink.gif

For Gaming, its just not worth its money. The Mainboards cost a lot more, the CPUs are expensive, and you don't gain much.
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post #96 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 03:36 AM
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I'd love to build a LGA2011 render/encode monster but just the cost is just too much for my current budget.
I'll probably look at moving to the extreme platform when my current build gets outdated. Will probably be looking at Broadwell-E or Skylake-E at that point. But who knows biggrin.gif I'll have lots of time putting money away to go all out at that point .D

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post #97 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 03:44 AM
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Latest roadmap



In 2014, only Haswell Refresh (new stepping, higher clock) + Intel 9 Series chipset will be released, no new process (nor microarchitecture). This is a deviation from the tick-tock model. The new chipset will introduce SATA Express. This also means that DDR4 SDRAM won't be the mainstream SDRAM until 2015 (Haswell-E in 2014 is to support DDR4, however).

Broadwell (14nm process) will be postponed until 2015. A rumor says Broadwell is BGA only (i.e. the processor is soldered to the motherboard). Skylake (2015) may be the desktop successor to Haswell Refresh.
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post #98 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 04:24 AM
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Yeah well didn't remember the Broadwell rumors. But either way I'll probably looking at Skylake-E, whenever it arrives.

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post #99 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 05:37 AM
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Honestly there's no software or much reason to need something that's very advanced beyond LGA 2011. It's going to take a year or two before even enthusiasts really need the power.

The affordable i7 on LGA 1150 or 1155 is really quite a beast. There's just a huge point of diminishing returns to go higher...

$300 versus $1000 is a big deal.

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post #100 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 05:38 AM
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But I want SATA Express. Saturating a SATA 3 port is BS.

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post #101 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Latest roadmap



In 2014, only Haswell Refresh (new stepping, higher clock) + Intel 9 Series chipset will be released, no new process (nor microarchitecture). This is a deviation from the tick-tock model. The new chipset will introduce SATA Express. This also means that DDR4 SDRAM won't be the mainstream SDRAM until 2015.

Broadwell (14nm process) will be postponed until 2015. A rumor says Broadwell is BGA only (i.e. the processor is soldered to the motherboard). Skylake (2015) may be the desktop successor to Haswell Refresh.

Looks like intel is starting to react to the lack of pressure from AMD.
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post #102 of 251 Old 06-04-2013, 07:52 AM
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Well I already have a quite capable rig, 3770K that I can run at 4.8Ghz 24/7 if I'd like it to. Going to be upgrading my storage drives sometime this year so then I won't be bottlenecked by my hard drives anymore.
And who said you need to buy the most expensive 2011 CPU?
3930K is the obvious choice and it's only 569$ where as 3770K or 4770K would cost you 319$ or 349$. That's only 220-250$ increase..
With that you get 2 extra cores, VT-d, quad channel memory, hell of a lot more PCI-e lanes and the lack of iGPU (benefit for me)

Also like I said, rendering and encoding what I use my rig for so no diminishing results for me.

Here's how my 3770K did in Juce's x264 bench v0.2 @4.5Ghz
preset veryslow

encoded 250 frames, 3.18 fps, 70997.19 kb/s
encoded 250 frames, 3.21 fps, 70997.19 kb/s
encoded 250 frames, 3.19 fps, 70997.19 kb/s

And jone1 user's 3930K running at 4.6Ghz
preset veryslow

encoded 250 frames, 4.43 fps, 71018.05 kb/s
encoded 250 frames, 4.44 fps, 71018.05 kb/s
encoded 250 frames, 4.45 fps, 71018.05 kb/s

See, 39% faster and if you'd factor in the clock speed difference the speed difference would still be more than 30%.

The price difference is of course high. But that's what you have to pay if you want the performance.

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post #103 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I am considering building a new office PC and I confused what to do.

Microcenter has killer deals on the i5 both LGA1150 and 1155.

There is a couple options I can do.

First- I was considering upgrading my server G860 3.0 Sandy with Intel Xeon Quad-Core Processor E3-1220V2 3.1GHz 5.0GT/s 8MB LGA 1155 for $192. I am wondering if it would be a good fit in my flexraid server and my Z77 Asrock Mobo. I could then use the G860 as a new office PC which should suffice fine.




Seems like decent bang for the buck. I don't virtualize now- but wondering if I should or if this would help if I did. (kinda noob at that still)

Thoughts?

My other choice is to do a microcenter deal- Only because it seems cool and a good value.



There is a couple good combo's I am playing around with but the drive is so far away and I really don't need it. I could make due with a basic dual core. It's just and office PC.
I think it's a case of want and not need- but my partner has a 2500k and 6850gpu and it would be cool to do a little gaming in the office.

4770k is about $400 combo:


3770k:


4760k:


3570k (which I could drop into my server and use G860 to complicate things)


lastly a lowly... i3




I wonder if Haswell is worth it or not over Ivy ??? I am worried about recalls and growing pains... too. Should I be ?


@ Assassin,


What did you decide to do ? I am more confused than ever because I have so many choices.

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post #104 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

my dart hit on the 3570.

jealous of that 4770k/3770k in-store combo deals. wish i could get one.


Z87 worth it ?

I am debating to get the 3770k or 4770k and replace my 2600k. I'd use that 2600k for my office PC. I don't like how long it takes to restart the Asus Z68 deluxe it is on... and the system is not very stable for gaming. (I am exaggerating, but it's not as good as I had hoped.)

I had a $60 gift card and I see there was a $20 rebate too.. so I just got $80 off a Vector SSD. I think it would match up well with a new board. Z87 is growing on me.

My question is do I want to change sockets or not ??? Is LGA1155 enough ? I like that the Z87 has the Intel Lan on it. My Z68 Asus has intel lan too. My server has the LAN NIC from intel installed.

That is worth $25 - so the difference of $$55 is really only $30 to me. I value the Intel Nic over the one in the Z77Asrock Extreme 4.

I want to install a second x8 card in my server so perhaps the 2600k and Asus Deluxe would make sense in that. ???? hmmm.. Now I am confusing myself. (issue is my Asus Deluxe doesn't have a video out port, and I think using a GPU in a server is a waste)


It looks like the Z87 has Intel Lan chip, HDMI in and out (what is the input for ?) - Has support for 2933+ memory (I only have Gskil 2400ghz) and includes 3 PCI express 3.0 x16 slots. (I'd never use 3 cards) Looks like it also has 8 SATA 3 ports (I like that) and a realtek ALC1150 audio versus the ALC898 in the LGA1155 version.

It also ads a display port out and has 6 USB 3.0 ports. Has support for 4 more USB3.0 with headers.

My major hangup with the Haswell was the Z87 board costing more. ($129 versus $159) but perhaps the $30 is worth it on Z87 ?????


Here is my value system:

Asrock Z77 versus Asrock Z87 Extreme 4 (3770k vs 4770k) [Ivy versus Haswell]

Advantages on 87 build:

Intel Lan chip ($20)
8 SATA 3 ports ($10)
HDMI+display port+HDMI input ($10)
3 PCI 3.0 x16 slots ($1 cause I don't need more than 2)
supports 2933+ Memory ($5 cause I only have 2400mhz )
Realtek ALC1150 audio ($5 I prob won't be able to tell difference though)
8 USB 3.0 ($5)

So it appears that the "value" in the Z87 board is there... since it's got enough upgrades and goodies over the Z77 to justify it's higher cost.

What do you guys think ??? Worth jumping to the LGA1150 ????

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post #105 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 11:58 AM
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Xeon LGA1150 Haswell is already available. Xeon E3-1220V3, $220 .... Among them 1225, 1245, 1265L, 1275, 1285 support graphics.

As for Core i5/i7 Haswell, most support VT-d, except for K version. The cheapest is Core i5-4430. Advantages of Xeon are larger cache (8MB vs 6MB) and ECC memory support. Core i5/i7's graphics is better (3D, Intel Clear Video Technology). Comparison between Core i5-4570 and Xeon E3-1225 V3 (the same clock).

I bought Core i7-3770K a couple of months ago and I already regret that (a kind of smile.gif) after seeing gorgeous Z87 motherboards. I got Core i5-4670 and ASRock Z87 Extreme4 for testing purpose. Extreme4 and Extreme6 (huge(?) improvements over the Z77 versions) are pretty good as a server motherboard, they also support Xeon Haswell. As you may know already, all ASRock mb except for very cheap ones come with Intel Gb LAN (I217-V, the successor to 82579V). Extreme6 has dual Intel Gb LAN (Intel I217-V + Intel I211-AT).

IVB will be a past story quickly anyway. The Haswell era will continue for two years.
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post #106 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 12:10 PM
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I don't know which thread I'd post this in but I'll put it here instead of the SVP thread.
If you'd get the Xeon for the VT-d then your motherboard would need to support VT-d as well.
Now, the Z77 chipset does support VT-d but it's up to the motherboard manufacturer to enable that functionality.
Refer to your motherboard manufacturers model page and see if there's any mention of VT-d.
With a simple Asrock Z77 VT-d search in Google brings up this
http://www.overclock.net/t/1338063/vt-d-compatible-motherboards/0_20
Now another search result included the BIOS download page of the Extreme4 which has this
Modify VT-d Capability will be unsupported after flashing BIOS P2.50.

What you get with VT-d or IOMMU
An input/output memory management unit (IOMMU) enables guest virtual machines to directly use peripheral devices, such as Ethernet, accelerated graphics cards, and hard-drive controllers, through DMA and interrupt remapping. This is sometimes called PCI passthrough.[30] Both AMD and Intel have released specifications:

AMD's I/O Virtualization Technology, "AMD-Vi", originally called "IOMMU".[31]
Intel's "Virtualization Technology for Directed I/O" (VT-d).[32] Included in most but not all Nehalem based processors.[33]

Straight from the Wikipedia page, not even gonna bother remove the reference numbers lol.
If you think you'd have use for VT-d then by all means go for it.

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post #107 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Xeon LGA1150 Haswell is already available. Xeon E3-1220V3, $220 .... Among them 1225, 1245, 1265L, 1275, 1285 support graphics.

As for Core i5/i7 Haswell, most support VT-d, except for K version. The cheapest is Core i5-4430. Advantages of Xeon are larger cache (8MB vs 6MB) and ECC memory support. Core i5/i7's graphics is better (3D, Intel Clear Video Technology). Comparison between Core i5-4570 and Xeon E3-1225 V3 (the same clock).

I bought Core i7-3770K a couple of months ago and I already regret that (a kind of smile.gif) after seeing gorgeous Z87 motherboards. I got Core i5-4670 and ASRock Z87 Extreme4 for testing purpose. Extreme4 and Extreme6 (huge(?) improvements over the Z77 versions) are pretty good as a server motherboard, they also support Xeon Haswell. As you may know already, all ASRock mb except for very cheap ones come with Intel Gb LAN (I217-V, the successor to 82579V). Extreme6 has dual Intel Gb LAN (Intel I217-V + Intel I211-AT).

IVB will be a past story quickly anyway. The Haswell era will continue for two years.

Strong post biggrin.gif I think you just sold me on Z87 Extreme4 and the 4770k.

It's basically $59 more over the 3770k and the Extreme4 LGA1155- and for that $59 it seems like the Z87 platform has more to offer (both CPU and MOBO/Chipset)

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post #108 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 12:21 PM
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Yup, both Z87 Extreme4 and Extreme6 support VT-d. Well, even very cheap ASRock B85 mb support it. (Unless future BIOS breaks it accidentally, of course. smile.gif)

BTW I inspected Extreme4 mb and found ASRock fixed the SATA switch issue (ASM1453 SATA2 switch is used in Z77 Extreme4, ASM1456 SATA3 switch is used in Z87 Extreme4.)
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post #109 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yup, both Z87 Extreme4 and Extreme6 support VT-d. Well, even very cheap ASRock B85 mb support it. (Unless future BIOS breaks it accidentally, of course. smile.gif)

BTW I inspected Extreme4 mb and found ASRock fixed the SATA switch issue (ASM1453 SATA2 switch is used in Z77 Extreme4, ASM1456 SATA3 switch is used in Z87 Extreme4.)


F-it !

I did it.


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post #110 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 12:28 PM
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I am very excited about the ASRock Z87 Extreme11/ac motherboard. It comes with 22 SATA ports! It's basically an HBA integrated into the mobo. Seeing how many features it has, I am sure it's going to cost $400+. It's still of very good value IMO since you won't have to buy separate HBAs for quite a while. I wonder if it supports ECC memory
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post #111 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 12:38 PM
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Yeah. I saw that as well.
That's crazy good value if you ask me since you already have the HBA integrated to the motherboard so you have free expansion ports for other stuff.
Oh and yeah, definitely 400$+.
The Z77 Extreme11 already is 359€ (about 400$ without VAT) so I'd imagine the Z87 version is going to run for about 389-399€.

Also while I was checking those prices, I came across this. SONDERPREIS! Indeed...




Oh and by the way, congratulations Mfusick on your purchase smile.gif Should be nice upgrade

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post #112 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 12:39 PM
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I just know that if I did anything else than Z87 and i7 i'd probably regret it. For the $59 over the Z77 it just made sense to me. Spread out of the next year or two it's easily going to be worth it to me to have spent the extra I think.
I am kinda excited to be replacing my trusty 2600k. Hopefully this one boots up faster (my biggest complaint of the Z68 Asus Deluxe.) I actually wanted to use the Z68 Asus Deluxe in my server because it has multiple x8 slots and I could use multiple HBA cards (I only have 1 now) and my Asrock PRO3 ATX I don't think supports two simultaneous x8 cards- but I'd have to double check that. That Asus does- and it has Intel Lan, but the problem is I don't think it had a HDMI or VGA out. I don't want to bother using a GPU card in my server. That Z68 board was nice board when I got it- but by today's standards the memory controllers and things on the Z87 seems far superior.

I am going to yank out 8GB of 2400mhz Gskill (2x4GB) from my HTPC(3570k) and use that on the Z87/4770k. I am going to split the 16GB in my desktop (4x4GB) 1600mhz and use 8GB in the office PC and the other 8GB in the HTPC. Should work fine and save me the cost of DDR3 right now. I paid like $80 for the 16GB gskill kit back when memory was rock bottom priced- and today 8GB sells for almost the same price. I don't need 16GB anyways... I only got it because it was super cheap. I don't think using 1600mhz memory on my 2600k office PC or 3570k HTPC is a big deal anyways. I do plan to upgrade the HTPC with a GPU card or SVP at some point- but I only use SVP a limited amount of the time. I guess I'll just stick with HD4000 and level 4g for now.

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post #113 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 06:09 PM
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Just wanted to say that anyone who is getting the Xeon and VT-d is a good option but also remember that most folks who do that will also want to have ECC memory as well. Your motherboard not only needs VT-d support but needs to support ECC in my opinion that is really the advantage of using a Xeon CPU. If your not going to use ECC might as well just stick to a one of the regular I7 that supports VT-d otherwise not much of an advantage going for the Xeon other than price for some folks. My guess is the motherboards that will support ECC might more than make up the cost of the savings on the cpu it seems that folks who want ECC pay for the privilege.
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post #114 of 251 Old 06-05-2013, 09:08 PM
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Depends on price point and what you want to do with it. Low-end integrated graphics, the new AMD Richland look great. High-end workstation/gaming rig that you will also watch movies on, New Haswell i7 with a 7970 or GTX 770.
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post #115 of 251 Old 06-06-2013, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lespurgeon View Post

Depends on price point and what you want to do with it. Low-end integrated graphics, the new AMD Richland look great. High-end workstation/gaming rig that you will also watch movies on, New Haswell i7 with a 7970 or GTX 770.

I'm actually not going to watch movies on mine. It's more a daily driver workstation.

I'm debating upgrading my 3570k based HTPC with a 7000 series Radeon or wait a little bit and go 8000 series. I think once you get serious the integrated graphics don't matter. My old desktop mobo didn't even have hdmi output (i7 2600k).

If your spending more than $200 on a CPU chip then your probably best off with a GPU card historically. This 4770k machine is the first one I'm going to try without a GPU and I'm anxious to see the result. I find as I'm getting older I'm gaming less and less. My plan is to wait a bit and then put In a nice GPU card. I'm wondering if the 4770k can do SVP level 5G and MADVR without a GPU card. If so that might make GPU cards extinct in HTPC. Haswell seems much improved on the HTPC arena over IVY on refresh rates and dropped frames too.

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post #116 of 251 Old 06-06-2013, 05:50 AM
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Even though the HD4600 is quite fast it's still not quite that fast.
Can AMD's top of the line APU handle SVP with 5G? If not then I doubt the 4770K can't handle it either.
The HD5200 or whatever Iris Pro it's called, it could handle it probably.

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post #117 of 251 Old 06-06-2013, 07:00 AM
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If you are going to use Intel iGPU, then the best madVR's algorithms are

- Chroma upscaling: BiCubic 50
- Image upscaling: DXVA2
- Image downscaling: DXVA2

I tested 1080p24 movies with

- CPU: Core i7-3770K
- GPU: iGPU
- SVP: Level 5g
- madVR: The above algorithms
Code:
           | CPU usage | iGPU usage | Playback
OpenCL off |    80%    |     28%    | heavy stuttering 
OpenCL on  |    60%    |     95%    | heavy stuttering

In other words CPU is not powerful enough for SVP 5g without GPU assistance (unless you overclock it, say, @4.5-5.0GHz), while iGPU is not powerful enough to assist CPU. Haswell CPU's performance is more or less the same as IVB CPU. The number of EUs in Haswell is 20, while that in IVB is 16, so Haswell iGPU is not enough for OpenCL either.

Adding a small discrete GPU such as GT 430 / HD 6570 as an OpenCL engine will make the playback perfectly smooth. Here is a result when GT 430 is added (iGPU is still used for video rendering with madVR).

- CPU: Core i7-3770K
- GPU: iGPU
- SVP: Level 5g with GT 430 as an OpenCL engine
- madVR: The above algorithms
Code:
           | CPU usage | dGPU usage | iGPU usage | Playback
OpenCL off |    80%    |     0 %    |    28%     | heavy stuttering 
OpenCL on  |    60%    |     60%    |    50%     | smooth

BTW iGPU usage of 50% is normal when rendering 60fps videos *smoothly* with madVR (28% with heavy stuttering is just because not enough video frames are sent to the video renderer).
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post #118 of 251 Old 06-06-2013, 07:36 AM
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Hi,
Does anybody know if the Intel® Core™ i7-4770R Processor with motherboard has been released? This will have the Iris 5200 graphics. Has anybody seen a review or have thoughts on it?

Thanks
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post #119 of 251 Old 06-06-2013, 08:42 AM
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Well these -R BGA SKU's will probably first arrive in the form of Intel's NUC. That's just guessing but I wouldn't be suprised, actually I would be surprised if we WOULDN'T see a Intel NUC with the Iris Pro.
I searched around a bit and didn't see any news regarding these or any motherboards with these. But Computex is still on for what, till saturday? Maybe we will see one there. Since there were some Kabini mb's from ECS iirc at Computex.

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post #120 of 251 Old 06-06-2013, 09:21 AM
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