Silicon Dust HD Prime and UPnP problem - No Tuner Available/Viewing Listening Conflict - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I just sent my Ceton 4 back for the memory problem several people on this forum had also experienced. In the meantime I bought an HDHR Prime, set it up, swapped the card, re-paired same card (via chat w/Cablevision, took 10 minutes). So far all is good, 20 minutes from out of the box to passing the "Tune HBO tests".

During the initial set up I had a little glitch, I received a UPnP error. I have two DLink DIR 655 'routers'. The downstairs router is set up as a router, DHCP, UPnP, multicast etc. The upstairs is set up as a WAP/wired switch... UPnP off, no DHCP (however multicast is and I believe has been on). This set up has worked fine for the 5 years I've been using it... rare re-boot, but, essentially works just fine. When I was setting up the HDHR, I turned UPnP on on the 'WAP' router and the setup worked fine. The TV was on here and there throughout the day/evening, no problems... or, so I thought, turns out recordings were dropping after a few minutes (5-15).

Troubleshooting the problem has revealed this: What ever state UPnP is in on the WAP, when the 'No Tuner Available' error message shows up, I change the status (check or uncheck) and reboot the 'WAP router' and whatever signals I'm consuming (1-3) come back in seconds. However, they are short lived and recording can't work unless I let the recording start, drop with the tuner, switch the UPnP state, reboot the router and manually restart a single recording. Within minutes of the tuner status changing (second tuner on, channel change etc.) the No Tuner Available error message appears... swapping the UPnP status on the WAP router and a re-boot brings it right back.

Again, this set up worked for 5 years until I added the HDHR to the network. I am not using the WAN port on the WAP router (192.168.0.2), DHCP is off on the WAP and set to a range of 0.100-199 on the actual router, which has UPnP on, and multicast streaming is on on both routers. The HTPC is hardwired into the WAP router, as is the HDHR. The WAP is hard wired to the router.

It is very strange that changing the UPnP status and rebooting temporarily resolves the issue, regardless of the UPnP state (yeah or nay). Multicast streaming is enabled on both devices... ....

Just happened now while I'm typing this, no tuner status change, just all of a sudden, Viewing or Listening Conflict, No tuner available to satisfy the current request... Turning UPnP on (from a state of off) gave a 'Files needed are not installed.... Restarting WMC and boom, CNN HD shows right back up.

Hard wiring the SD HDHR directly to the routher (DHCP server) isn't so easy as I don't have Co-Ax easily there. I can't imagine I'm the first person to have this problem, but, I can't find anything conclusive on the SD site/forums or in the HDHR Prime forum on green button.

This is driving me crazy, and WAF will plummet prior to the Ceton coming back home... Any help is greatly appreciated.
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post #2 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 01:03 PM
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Did you update the f/w on the HDHR Prime to the 011713 f/w?

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post #3 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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The firmware version is:



So, I imagine that is the latest given that when I went to install, it auto downloaded.
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post #4 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 01:29 PM
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You don't know how crappy your home network is until you installed HDHR Prime. It is very demanding. UPnP is required for WMC to communicate with any CableCard tuner. When you have Ceton card, this UPnP communication flows inside your PC in a private network, away from the outside network impacts. But with Prime, it flows on your existing network.

You need give us more details about your network layout. Typically, a network switch is recommended to connect the Prime and the recording PC on the same switch. This easily shields any problem with routers. Yes, a lot of routers interfere with UPnP traffic. DLink 655 is one of the worst. You need turn some router setting, other than the UPnP setting, on or off (it is documented in SD's FAQ).
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post #5 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 01:38 PM
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My home network must be good as I've never had network issues with the HDHR Prime or echo for that matter.
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post #6 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiedread View Post

The firmware version is:



So, I imagine that is the latest given that when I went to install, it auto downloaded.

Why did you install the beta f/w?

Hmm. Just checked. I did not know that a new f/w released last week. I'll wait to see how it works for everybody before I jump on it as the January one is nearly flawless for me.

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post #7 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 01:44 PM
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Silicon Dust's forum is riddled with people having issues with this f/w. It seems it is an issue with A/V software. What are you using? MSE is the best one to use on an HTPC or any other PC for that matter.

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post #8 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The way it is currently configured both the HTPC and HD Prime are on the same 'switch', the WAP.

I couldn't find anything on the SD pages other than try switching multicast on/off, however that conflicts with another post I read... and I'm not sure which source point I should turn off, WAP router or router router (that doesn't seem correct, I thought these devices required multicast streams, but, honestly I don't know truly what a multicast stream is).

The way my network looks now is: Cable Modem >DIR 655 which has several things hardwired in a mac and Vista 32 box and an extender + the upstairs WAP DIR 655 and including a TrendNet 5 port switch; I'm not 100% certain as to what goes to the switch and what goes directly to the router... There is also a Nework Multifunction printer fax etc.... There is no wireless broadcast from this router. The second DIR has the HTPC, the Prime, the downstairs router and a Power.. those things you use to create a LAN over electric... can't recall exactly what they are called... that has an extender attached.

When I first set this up there was a week or so of tweaking the settings, but it has been running smoothly for almost 5 yeaars... until the prime was added... because the 'WAP' router doesn't have a WAN connection I was thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that UPnP was useless.

The Co-Ax (which handles cable signal, internet and VoIP) comes into the house and is split x 2 > one to the HTPC (SD HR right now via a Tuning Adaptor) and one to the cable modem. I could conceivably split the one which goes to the modem and put the SD on the second (fear is signal degradation) and put the HDHR directly into the DHCP serving routher (we'll call that on .0.1 and the WAP .0.2)? Other possibility is to put the HDHR on that split which currently goes up to the upstairs TV to which the router is upstream, not the WAP (could be via the TrendNet switch).

I'm just not sure what to try next. I can happily post picutes of either of the devices' settings. I'm wondering if trying to split the signal going to the modem and putting the HDHR directly into the router (with DHCP) might not be worth a try.

I do not use A/V software - I don't have an AV receiver per se (I pump the audio out of the TV into a 20 year old Yamaha, which works just fine for our purposes). My uneducated guess is that FoxBat is on to something... I have a setting wrong on the ..... ringrang... which is causing... a slabonary effect on the (sorry, I'm out of made up words right now).

Oh, I should add, the two green lights on the SD (which I don't know what they mean but I've seen references to one of them blinking in their forum) are both solid green... and I can bring up the device web page; both of these are true even when the no tuner is available.

I hope it is not the firmware... I should have researched that before not un-checking 'automatically search for newer software' when installing.
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post #9 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 03:30 PM
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Sorry to hear about your issues, not to speak for Sammy2 but A/V in this case refers to Anti Virus. Microsoft Securilty Essentials is far and away the best real time program to use for your configuration from what I have read and experienced myself with my HD homerun dual.
I assume you saw the warning here about Firmware downgrades http://www.silicondust.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=12216

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post #10 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, I use the MSE software on that machine.. This was an 'Assassin build' so I followed his guides pretty closely for the set up. I didn't go all in with a lot of the additional software, but the set up is solid... I experience similar problems with the tuners as others.

When I had the ATI DCT's I recall tweaking the McAfee settings in order to get them to work. Eventually replaced with AVG (McAfee was too much overhead) without a problem (related to that) on that machine.

Those settings, what is allowed and not are relatively simple and I checked them and the network settings right after the install... just out of habit.

All 3 tuners are currently in use, and I don't think there has been a failure. The one change:

multicast stream disabled on WAP router. Keeping fingers crossed... UPnP still enabled on that 'router'... although, I don't think that makes any sense... don't really know though.
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post #11 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 07:16 PM
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UPnP is not just for forwarding ports on the router with WAN connections. It is a network communication protocol that is, from what I read, basically HTTP over UDP. That is a weird combination that is rarely used in any other places. Microsoft decided that it will use UPnP exclusively to communicate with CableCard tuners. Unfortunately, a lot of consumer routers misbehave badly when comes to this kind of traffic. They often drop the UPnP packets on the LAN side for no apparent reasons. Since this kind of traffic is rare. most ppl will never know there is such a problem until they bought a HDHR Prime tuner smile.gif That's why the recommendation is to use a network switch to isolate the tunner traffic, not a misbehaving router act as a switch.

Another common issue that a lot of owners of Prime encountered is the cheap gigabit NIC on most motherboards are not designed to handle UDP traffic without packet drop either. Intel NIC is commonly recommended.
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post #12 of 26 Old 03-31-2013, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, the tuner appears to have to have accurately recorded everything I had asked it to do, including multiple shows on a single channel (The Bible on History HD 2 hour shows x 2) and simultaneously captured several other shows on multiple different channels overnight.

So, I think the disabling of multi-cast on the 'WAP' router did the trick. Ironically, in the state it was in at last failure, UPnP was, and still is checked on both the WAP and the router... next re-boot (could be weeks from now... or minutes) I'll turn that off - 5 year old router was rebooted 6 or 8 times yesterday so, I'm in no rush.

I like this tuner - need to learn more about it (diagnostics specifically - how to determine signal strength S/N etc.) - but it changes channels quickly and when it was 'overbooked' last evening it switched the upstairs TV from Live CNN HD to whatever HBO movie I had scheduled to record as part of the testing. So, it totally passed that test without throwing an error (I wasn't in front of the TV so WMC may have thrown out that 'Changing Channels because all tuners are booked).

I haven't set up the Vista 32 machine or even attempted to put any TV whatsoever on one of my Macs. I'm slowly converting to Mac for normal day to day computing in the hosue.... but will have an HTPC/OCUR tuner on a Windows box as long as these capabilities are superior to what you can get from Cable Co. (well, I'm a software developer in a Windows shop, most of my aps sit on Unix/AIX or Linux/Red Hat).

Thank you everyone for the help/insight.... I was banging my head and although I would have eventually tried it, the post on the SD site which mentioned multi-cast and UPnP wasn't logical to me (espcially since it said 'toggle' - not sure which setting combo is correct, toggle them). Router setting, good advice, thanks again.
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post #13 of 26 Old 03-31-2013, 06:01 AM
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If you want to watch all your channels, Windows 7 WMC is the only thing that works. Not Vista, nor Mac.
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post #14 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Another common issue that a lot of owners of Prime encountered is the cheap gigabit NIC on most motherboards are not designed to handle UDP traffic without packet drop either. Intel NIC is commonly recommended.

Be careful recommending that. On the SiliconDust forum we've been discussing the issues with the Intel 82579V NICs. I've resolved a pixellation issue on my main HTPC by bypassing the Intel NIC with a CHEAP Trendnet/Realtek NIC.

I did not read all the details you have posted, but I see you are down to the HDHR and the HTPC on the same "switch", specifically your access point. I will warn you that we've seen issues when the devices are connected through an AP or smart switch of any type. You can possibly get rid of any router or "smart" features by changing the mode to AP Only, but you might still have issues. I strongly suggest trying a dumb switch, or maybe do a temporary straight cable from the HDHR to the Prime, so you can narrow down where the problem is.
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post #15 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 08:09 AM
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http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/01/to-prevent-hacking-disable-universal-plug-and-play-now/
I turned off uPnP for this reason, but my tuner is USB connected.

Could you could disable it in your router, and have everything inside on a dumb switch?
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post #16 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post

Be careful recommending that. On the SiliconDust forum we've been discussing the issues with the Intel 82579V NICs. I've resolved a pixellation issue on my main HTPC by bypassing the Intel NIC with a CHEAP Trendnet/Realtek NIC.

Yes, I'm aware of that and if I'm not mistaken, that is only embedded on motherboard, not a standalone NIC that you can purchase. The standalone Intel NIC doesn't have this problem.
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post #17 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 08:29 AM
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You are correct, this is the integrated NIC only. But that's why some of us are (were) willing to pay a premium for an Intel motherboard, to have integrated Intel NIC - among some other advantages.
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post #18 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post

You are correct, this is the integrated NIC only. But that's why some of us are (were) willing to pay a premium for an Intel motherboard, to have integrated Intel NIC - among some other advantages.

That's very unfortunate smile.gif I have read there are other serious issues, not related to TV streaming, with that specific intel NIC chipset. And it require an expensive firmware update (you can't really update it via software tools but rather require a very expensive hardware tool) to remedy it.

The problem with Realtek NIC is that you never know which driver update will cause you problem.
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post #19 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 08:52 AM
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At this point my HTPC is stable, so for the most part I'm not doing any updates. I am keeping an eye on the NIC updates, and I try each one as it comes out just long enough to see if it has been resolved, as I'd like to pull that Realtek out if I can.

You might have seen the thread I just posted, I'm purposely looking away from motherboards with Intel NICs just for this reason.
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post #20 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 09:03 AM
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I won't blame you. Those motherboards are expensive as well. Shame on Intel.
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post #21 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 10:34 AM
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I've only ever had three motherboards die on me in the past 15 or so years. The last two were both Intels. I received two replacements under warranty, but I don't expect I'll ever be buying another. I use standalone Intel NICs in all of my PCs as they mostly tend to come with the Realtek chips.
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post #22 of 26 Old 04-06-2013, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been running a week now with no issues - so the multicast stream was the issue (on the WAP router).

mobo=AS Rock Pro 3m, no NIC issues.

UPnP is still ''checked' on the 'WAP" router as I haven't had the need for a reboot.

Also, got my Ceton back, may go get a second card and pop it in today (not sure I'm that motivated - or that I need 7 tuners)

Does anyone have any experience using these two together? Can I pop the card out of my HD HR; repair it with the Ceton and use the HRHR w/o card?

I really have no idea how to get the two tuners going simultaneously - I had 2 ATI's on a vista machine but that set up was done 5 years ago.

Not sure how I'm going to proceed.
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post #23 of 26 Old 04-06-2013, 08:14 AM
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You can use both as CableCard tuners on the PC with Ceton installed because Ceton drivers will enable you to access more than 4 CableCard tuners. Repairing CableCard is typically more trouble than get a new card from my own experience.
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post #24 of 26 Old 04-06-2013, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Any pointers on how to set up with a Ciisco Tuning Adaptor?

Currently I have a single co-ax line heading out to the HD HR - I was thinking of splitting that (out of or TA) and one line to Ceton the other to HD HR. Not sure the best way to do this. The TA is only for SDV channels, so, in theory I could split pre- TA and put that one to the SD HD HR, the other -> TA->Ceton as I don't think I'll ever be tuning more than 4 SDV signals.
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post #25 of 26 Old 04-06-2013, 02:58 PM
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Without the TA on each product, it will be hard to configure WMC which tuner to pick for TA. I don't know how the channel mapping will look like without a TA connected. FYI, when TA is connected, the TA will be responsible for channel mapping. Without TA, the CableCard will be responsible for channel mapping. You just need to figure it out yourself.
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post #26 of 26 Old 04-07-2013, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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interesting - I should probably split before TA and add a second TA, on per tuner.
Thanks.
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