Any news on the cablecard HBO/AMC/FX TV channel stuttering issue aka (Media Center 29/59 framerate bug)? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 04-24-2013, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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This issue has been discussed on several dozen forum threads all over the Internet.  This issue manifests itself as either a video stutter symptom or video flicker symptom on HBO, AMC, FX and other similar premium TV networks.  There are some graphics driver settings that can address the video flicker symptom.  There are also some older Nvidia display cards and a few ATI cards that avoid the stuttering issue.

 

The only way I know how to address the issue on my PC is through hardware-intensive software based IVTC such as the dscaler mpeg2 IVTC mod decoder (which doesnt offer any real deinterlacing) or using MadVR (which is not a possibility for the media center software I use).  I was hoping there may be some news about this issue.


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post #2 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 09:54 AM
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There are many threads on avs even. Why start a new one?

At any rate, My GT-430 handles this just fine.. Or at least it did when Charter mistakenly enabled Starz for a time and it showed the 29/59 "fliicker" on the 411 info page.

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post #3 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, there aren't as many threads on AVS forum as you think about this issue; there was only one other thread that even mentioned 29/59; and, another was specific to Intel graphics.  This thread is specific to HBO/AMC/FX TV channel video stuttering.  It's not about flickering or other TV channels.  I would actually buy the GT430 or GT440 if I knew for sure the problem would go away.  If someone had the stuttering issue; and, successfully got rid of the problem with a GT440, I'd buy that card in a heartbeat; especially, if the card can hardware accelerate 3D bluray and H.264 like my GT640 can.

 

If there's even the slightest chance someone figured out a definitive way to cure this issue via software; or, can confirm the stuttering goes away with a 430/440 Nvidia card, its worth it to make a post that's easy to find and can get that person's attention.


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post #4 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 12:42 PM
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This might help.

I believe that this is the 29/59 bug and occurs on Starz too as I confirmed it during that window I had it by mistake. I was able to get it to go away with my GT 430 as confirmed here.

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post #5 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 12:48 PM
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Searching the HTPC forum at avs yields this.

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post #6 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for trying to help.  I think  you might be confusing the flickering issue (which can be fixed via software) with video stuttering symptom that I have.  A lot of people confuse these two problems since they are jumbled up together in some forum posts; which is one of the reasons why I started this thread with the word "stuttering" in the forum thread title.  I've never seen the flickering issue before.

 

Have you ever used any other display cards other than the GT430 for your cablecard PC; and, had stuttering on those TV channels?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

This might help.

I believe that this is the 29/59 bug and occurs on Starz too as I confirmed it during that window I had it by mistake. I was able to get it to go away with my GT 430 as confirmed here.

 

Yes, those were the search results I described earlier.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Searching the HTPC forum at avs yields this.

Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #7 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 04:20 PM
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My i3-550 (Clarkdale) seemed to handle it okay too but that is what the article states also.

With the GT 430, i noticed it right away on Starz but I did this:
Quote:
Additionally, on some NVIDIA GPUs, with current drivers (as of 9/25/2012) the 29/59 bug may manifest as a diming and brightening of the image at the transition point from interlaced to progressive coding. If you encounter this on NVidia hardware the following steps should mask it:

Do this:

Do NOT use the nvidia control panel settings to set dynamic range. Set it to application default (or whatever it's called). Using the NVidia setting exposes the flickering.
Use the registry settings that instruct Media Center to implicitly set the nominal/dynamic range:
16-235:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Debug\ehPresenter.dll]
"NominalRange"=dword:2

0-255:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Debug\ehPresenter.dll]
"NominalRange"=dword:1

This should mask the change in brightness on the interlaced/progressive transition.

and it went away.

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post #8 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 04:42 PM
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Get an extender (other than Echo) and be done with it.

It is the same 29/59 issue just manifested in different way. Since Microsoft is not fixing it, it is up to each video card and video card driver to behave correctly. Even if one video appears to be fine but next driver update may break it. The only real fix is ask Microsoft to fix the WMC but that obviously will never happen.
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post #9 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, that's the fix for the flickering issue (completely separate symptom); which is an easy fix.

 

I have 3 extenders already for the rest of the house. I have a PC based client which I still spend a lot of time on.  I was hoping someone who has seen the stuttering first hand and was able to make it go away by switching to a GT440 or GT430.  I haven't found such claim yet.  Maybe there's such a post burried somewhere; but I've not been able to find it.  So, if this thread happens to get the attention of someone that did; or, someone finds a first-hand experience; then that's all I need to order that card. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

My i3-550 (Clarkdale) seemed to handle it okay too but that is what the article states also.

With the GT 430, i noticed it right away on Starz but I did this:
and it went away.
Quote:
Additionally, on some NVIDIA GPUs, with current drivers (as of 9/25/2012) the 29/59 bug may manifest as a diming and brightening of the image at the transition point from interlaced to progressive coding. If you encounter this on NVidia hardware the following steps should mask it:

Do this:

Do NOT use the nvidia control panel settings to set dynamic range. Set it to application default (or whatever it's called). Using the NVidia setting exposes the flickering.
Use the registry settings that instruct Media Center to implicitly set the nominal/dynamic range:
16-235:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Debug\ehPresenter.dll]
"NominalRange"=dword:2

0-255:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Debug\ehPresenter.dll]
"NominalRange"=dword:1

This should mask the change in brightness on the interlaced/progressive transition.


and it went away.


Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #10 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I have 3 extenders.  But my primary PC is the one I spend most of my time on. 

 

Yes, I saw that thread; which a lot of people are getting their information from.  But, unfortunately there's misinformation in that thread which is very misleading and confusing to many people.  The real 29/59 issue has been around for years (stuttering); long before cablecards; effecting people like me who have cableTV based R5000 tuners since 2006 on SageTV.  I dont even use Windows Media Center.  The flickering issue came way later; which is an Nvidia-related bug that was introduced in their more recent drivers.  Also, this isn't a Microsoft related issue; so, of course, its not something that Microsoft will ever fix.  The only thing Microsoft can do is put a WHQL requirement for display card vendors to test this type of video content before releasing their display cards.  The display card vendors are the only ones that can fix this problem.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Get an extender (other than Echo) and be done with it.

It is the same 29/59 issue just manifested in different way. Since Microsoft is not fixing it, it is up to each video card and video card driver to behave correctly. Even if one video appears to be fine but next driver update may break it. The only real fix is ask Microsoft to fix the WMC but that obviously will never happen.

Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #11 of 18 Old 04-25-2013, 06:43 PM
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The flickering issue affect not just NVidia but ATI and Intel as well. The problem with WMC is that you must use Microsoft MPEG2 decoder (for DRM) which will freaking out when encounters frame rate switching and reset the video driver. Stuttering is just another behavior of the same cause. Until Microsoft fixes its decoder, all you do at video card side is just work around.
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post #12 of 18 Old 04-26-2013, 02:01 AM
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The only way I have been able to eliminate this issue is to set AMD Catalyst settings to uncheck all post processing features, then in XBMC set deinterlacing to "on" rather than "auto" for the content you want to watch with the 29/59 problem. Doesn't work in WMC as there is no way to force deinterlacing.
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post #13 of 18 Old 04-26-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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The real problem is in the display adapter hardware themselves which can't be fixed via software settings.  There shouldn't be any flickering symptoms with the right software setting.

 

People who don't have DRM in their recordings (such as recordings from R5000 based tuners like mine) can use any mpeg2 decoder they want for any TV channel.  It doesnt matter what mpeg2 decoder is used since they all share the same hardware based video decoding engine done by the GPU.  The only way to prevent this from happening in the mpeg2 decoder is if it deinterlaces (or IVTC's) the video with brute CPU-based software decoding, avoiding all of the display card's advanced GPU accelerations capabilities.  Many setups aren't powerful enough to do this in real-time, even if there was such a solution from Microsoft.  So, it's not really feasible to expect Microsoft to fix the problem in the mpeg2 decoder.

 

Most PC based display adapters were never tested to work with mixed hard/soft telecined content.  They can hardware decode either soft telecine content (23.976fps) or hard telecine (29.97fps) streams; but, not video streams that switch back and forth between both.

 

It would be best if Microsoft made it a WHQL requirement for hardware vendors to test with this type of video streams before release new display cards.  There's a small possibility that display card vendors could offer a fixes in their drivers to handle switching better.

 

Having said that, I'm currently using the dscaler (IVTC mod edition) decoder which will do all decoding in pure software; using IVTC.  However, it's still not perfect.  It only has basic bob/weave dinterlacing, so for 59.940fps 1080i video (such as live sports, news, late night TV shows such as Jay Leno, etc), it will have to weave the interlaced frames; losing significant detail.

 

In theory, I could use LAV Video+MadVR; but then, I would lose all overlay/video effects; and, limited to only full screen; plus, SageTV doesnt allow any custom video renderers.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

The flickering issue affect not just NVidia but ATI and Intel as well. The problem with WMC is that you must use Microsoft MPEG2 decoder (for DRM) which will freaking out when encounters frame rate switching and reset the video driver. Stuttering is just another behavior of the same cause. Until Microsoft fixes its decoder, all you do at video card side is just work around.

Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #14 of 18 Old 04-26-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post

I have 3 extenders.  But my primary PC is the one I spend most of my time on. 

Yes, I saw that thread; which a lot of people are getting their information from.  But, unfortunately there's misinformation in that thread which is very misleading and confusing to many people.  The real 29/59 issue has been around for years (stuttering); long before cablecards; effecting people like me who have cableTV based R5000 tuners since 2006 on SageTV.  I dont even use Windows Media Center.  The flickering issue came way later; which is an Nvidia-related bug that was introduced in their more recent drivers.  Also, this isn't a Microsoft related issue; so, of course, its not something that Microsoft will ever fix.  The only thing Microsoft can do is put a WHQL requirement for display card vendors to test this type of video content before releasing their display cards.  The display card vendors are the only ones that can fix this problem.

The gt 430 will fix this to some extent. I was having stuttering even with the HD 5570 all post processing off, occasionally to the point where the stutter would cause WMC to momentarily crash and restart which was quite annoying. The gt 430 has not had this problem though there is still some slight stutter. I think this will always be there due to the meta data constantly going back and forth. If you want to see if its a fix for you or not just pick up a gt 430 on ebay, they go for ~$25-30.
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post #15 of 18 Old 04-26-2013, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much.  Yes, what you describe falls in line more with some of the people in LAV filters Doom9 thread when I had uploaded some recordings from HBO for them to watch (I think at least one of them had a GT430).  I was hoping to hear from someone who's eyes are sensitive enough to notice the micro-stutter.  I guess some people aren't as sensitive to this type of stutter; and, if they dont watch recordings regularly on HBO, AMC, FX, and Starz (which I dont watch), it reduces the chances even more to notice the problem.

 

My GT640 is able to reduce this stutter to a minimum (does much better job than my previous cards) ... I skipped the 4XX generation though.  However, my TV is extremely sensitive to skipped frames since it also does framerate interpolation.  So, I ended up using dscaler mpeg2 IVTC mod decoder (per Madshi's suggestion on Doom9).

 

The only card I've owned that could completely avoid any stuttering whatsoever was my ancient GT8500 card, which still works to this day; but doesnt support 3D bluray at all.  I think that Intel or some of the ATI cards may not have this problem; but its hard to say unless someone has see the stuttering before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemist1117 View Post


The gt 430 will fix this to some extent. I was having stuttering even with the HD 5570 all post processing off, occasionally to the point where the stutter would cause WMC to momentarily crash and restart which was quite annoying. The gt 430 has not had this problem though there is still some slight stutter. I think this will always be there due to the meta data constantly going back and forth. If you want to see if its a fix for you or not just pick up a gt 430 on ebay, they go for ~$25-30.

Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #16 of 18 Old 04-26-2013, 10:07 AM
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No issue with on-board ATI 4200...

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #17 of 18 Old 04-26-2013, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post

Thanks so much.  Yes, what you describe falls in line more with some of the people in LAV filters Doom9 thread when I had uploaded some recordings from HBO for them to watch (I think at least one of them had a GT430).  I was hoping to hear from someone who's eyes are sensitive enough to notice the micro-stutter.  I guess some people aren't as sensitive to this type of stutter; and, if they dont watch recordings regularly on HBO, AMC, FX, and Starz (which I dont watch), it reduces the chances even more to notice the problem.

My GT640 is able to reduce this stutter to a minimum (does much better job than my previous cards) ... I skipped the 4XX generation though.  However, my TV is extremely sensitive to skipped frames since it also does framerate interpolation.  So, I ended up using dscaler mpeg2 IVTC mod decoder (per Madshi's suggestion on Doom9).

The only card I've owned that could completely avoid any stuttering whatsoever was my ancient GT8500 card, which still works to this day; but doesnt support 3D bluray at all.  I think that Intel or some of the ATI cards may not have this problem; but its hard to say unless someone has see the stuttering before.

I know my GF doesnt care about the stutter though it irks me to no end. I had read that the very old cards such as the gt8500 do not have any stutter since they do not have the full hardware to do the processing.
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post #18 of 18 Old 04-26-2013, 10:23 AM
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I will say that there was some flicker or micro-stutter as you call it with the GT 430 still but it was much, much better than before applying the "fix" I posted above. That said, I don't have these problems as I don't subscribe to the premium channels. Sorry that I cannot assist more.

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