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post #1 of 14 Old 05-08-2013, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I saw some "MadVR is better" screenshot comparisons from their authors but it's from 2009.

So, is that 2009 info still relevant?

I wonder because some years have passed and MPC-HC has other maintained GPU renderers, as well as there is a VLC OpenGL renderer, and potentially other players using GPU rendering.

So, what's the best today. Still MadVR?
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post #2 of 14 Old 05-08-2013, 07:59 AM
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I don't know about the others but I like madVR in MPC-HC.

Does VLC support HD Audio and dts now? I was not aware of this openGL renderer but I don't know if it is as customizable as madVR is. The introduction of SMFRC in madVR is great for smoothing out a lot of content such as 29fps and 25fps content.

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post #3 of 14 Old 05-08-2013, 04:20 PM
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MadVR is generally considered the best. Whether or not you personally will notice a difference between MadVR and VLC or some other renderer is another question entirely. The best answer is to compare the two yourself.
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post #4 of 14 Old 05-08-2013, 05:41 PM
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You need to read the first post on the madVR thread to understand what it does differently from other renders, then you'll understand what it does better.

No other renders dither, which among other features is the main reason it was introduced.

Try it by all means, if you don't notice it differs it's not worth your trouble;)

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post #5 of 14 Old 05-09-2013, 03:42 PM
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Be aware that to really see what madVR can do that makes it stand out significantly from say EVR you need copius amounts of GPU horsepower. madVR has many scaling options for upscaling, downscaling and chroma. If you have enough GPU and I mean a lot you can select the highest level of image upscaling and chroma upscaling and the color improves noticeably. For Upscaled SD images you will see very high quality scaling without artifacts. The problem is the very high settings will cause drop frames and stuttering if you are not running heavy hardware.

For SD stuff you can use DXVA upscaling and Jin AR 3 Chroma upscaling with something like a GT 650 Ti or better. I am using an AMD HD 7790 ( theoretically a step up from the 650 Ti and I can not find settings that work across the board for all media types. So while one setting is working for SD, that setting won't work for OTA Broadcast HD. The setting for OTA HD Broadcasts may drop frames with HD Ceton Cable Broadcasts on a given day. I have spent a dozen hours screwing around with this and it has become clear that the 7790 doesn't have the cajones do what I need. It does very nice work with WMC though.........

The AMD HD 7790 theoretically should be enough card but from what I can run into, you need more AMD card pound for pound to get the same job done, than you do with Nvidia. I have a problem (audio bug) wtih Ceton Cable HD Playback with Nvidia and that's why I bought the AMD. The 7790 card should have enough poop to run the madVR settings I elect for all my content and sometimes it will and sometimes it won't. I think this may have to do with some aggressive thermal management that keeps the 7790 down to 85 watts TDP.

For now the driver the 7790 is running It is pretty much a first version one off of the driver as the card is very new, the driver is in fact specific to the card. I now wish I would have gone with a 7850 or 7870..Yes they would have used more power but they have signifcantly higher bandwidth and usee the standard driver which is quite mature.

Between the nad/R renderer and LAV Video there are so many different combination of switches that getting the most out of madVR might drive you crazy, especially if you card doesn't have an abundance of processing power. When you start to read in detail about madVR and LAV you see that the majority of the testing and development was done with Nvidia and or Intel, AMD has been an after thought and it shows in the way it runs. I have some older Nvidia cards that are much less powerful that work easily and well with the madVR/Lav combination. They don't the juice to run the high settings but they configure much more easily and once set they just seem to work. If I didn't not have audio problems with the Ceton playing back some cable content in WMC with Nvidia I would get a GT 660 and live with the heat and power consumption.

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post #6 of 14 Old 05-09-2013, 03:59 PM
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What is pound for pound in comparing video cards?

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post #7 of 14 Old 05-09-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

What is pound for pound in comparing video cards?

Cards that are competitely markets and sold against each other at at price point. For example the 7770 and the 650, thhe 650Ti and the 7790. the 7850 and the new 650Ti Boost or the 660. So for example the 7790 was due to release and was a bit more bang for $150 class than the 650 Ti, so suddenly we have 650 Ti Boost on the scene to compete with 7850 at the $180 class.. 7850 overclocked 2GB or 7870 vs the 660 around $200 to $220.

The GPU market has roughly 3 price points in the mainstream. $100, 150 and $200. The 650 Ti Boost is supposed to be $150 ish card to steal the 7790 thunder but it is priced and its performance for games will be more like 7850.

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post #8 of 14 Old 05-09-2013, 05:25 PM
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Thanks for the clarification of what that loose term meant.

My GT 430 was $60 but it doesn't do Jinc very well. Other than that I like it. If Jinc were available when I got it I probably would have got a more robust card but my set up looks fantastic.

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post #9 of 14 Old 05-09-2013, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

For SD stuff you can use DXVA upscaling and Jin AR 3 Chroma upscaling with something like a GT 650 Ti or better. I am using an AMD HD 7790 ( theoretically a step up from the 650 Ti and I can not find settings that work across the board for all media types. So while one setting is working for SD, that setting won't work for OTA Broadcast HD. The setting for OTA HD Broadcasts may drop frames with HD Ceton Cable Broadcasts on a given day. I have spent a dozen hours screwing around with this and it has become clear that the 7790 doesn't have the cajones do what I need. It does very nice work with WMC though.........

Honestly, I've never seen any indication of what matters most for GPU performance on MadVR

The glaringly obvious comparison with all cards is the memory bandwidth, which is simply the bus width multiplied by the memory clock speed (and either 2x/4x for GDDR3/GDDR5)
-With this spec, I could see how the 7790 is theoretically a step up since it works out to have an 11% higher memory bandwidth

The other slightly less obvious comparisons for AMD/NVIDIA graphics cards are the pixel rate and texel rate

Pixel rate - number of pixels the card can record to it's memory in 1 second - GPU clock speed times the # or ROPs
-Both cards have 16 ROPs and there clock speeds are within 1% of each other, so no clear winner there

Texel rate - maximum number of texture map elements that can be applied in 1 second - GPU clock speed times the # of texture mapping units
-650 TI has 64 / 7790 has 56 so the 650 TI has a 15% higher texel rate
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post #10 of 14 Old 05-09-2013, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Honestly, I've never seen any indication of what matters most for GPU performance on MadVR

The glaringly obvious comparison with all cards is the memory bandwidth, which is simply the bus width multiplied by the memory clock speed (and either 2x/4x for GDDR3/GDDR5)
-With this spec, I could see how the 7790 is theoretically a step up since it works out to have an 11% higher memory bandwidth

The other slightly less obvious comparisons for AMD/NVIDIA graphics cards are the pixel rate and texel rate

Pixel rate - number of pixels the card can record to it's memory in 1 second - GPU clock speed times the # or ROPs
-Both cards have 16 ROPs and there clock speeds are within 1% of each other, so no clear winner there

Texel rate - maximum number of texture map elements that can be applied in 1 second - GPU clock speed times the # of texture mapping units
-650 TI has 64 / 7790 has 56 so the 650 TI has a 15% higher texel rate

All that junk being said, it's not clear to me which area MadVR would see the most benefit

If memory bandwidth isn't the *true* bottleneck for higher settings, then you'd obviously see no benefit from the 7790

I searched around for a more detailed MadVR - GPU utilization - what matters most - explanation, but if anyone could offer one I'd be grateful smile.gif
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post #11 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

All that junk being said, it's not clear to me which area MadVR would see the most benefit

If memory bandwidth isn't the *true* bottleneck for higher settings, then you'd obviously see no benefit from the 7790

I searched around for a more detailed MadVR - GPU utilization - what matters most - explanation, but if anyone could offer one I'd be grateful smile.gif

I think much of the issue for AMD with madVR is really how optimized the decoder is. LAV for example just works really well with Nividia. I have tried a number of the decoders and they all seen problematic with AMD and madVR.PowerDVD 9 decoder works very well with HD content but doesn't properly deinterlace SD. The back and forth communication between madVR and the decoder appears pretty critical.

Of course all these numbers assume stock clock rates on non-overclocked cards. A lot of the tricks lately just rehash an earlier version cards with power saving tricks. I have a GTS 450 in this box which I have not tried to see what the maximum settingsit can run are. On this box the Nvidia issue with Ceton content presents as flashing video during commercials on CNN HD along with loss of audio. On my HTPC the Nvidia 545 would just present as audio drops. I watch a lot of CNN during the day and until suck time as I completely ready to go JRiver I still consider WMC my Live TV production platform. I would go buy a GT 660 today if not for the audio glitch in WMC Ceton playback. Neither AMD or Intel exhibit and it has been around for many driver versions. With CNNHD on 4 to 5 hours a day it intolerable

The reason I have not tested the limits of the GTS 450 is that for whatever reason the madVR OSD does not come up with Ctrl-J. So I can't see when I am hitting a performance threshold which is just below a frame dropping mess. I can however tell when things go wildly awry and dial back. That is kind of an ugly way to diagnose and tune settings. Works for gross adjusments but is not even as good as the ole crank her up till she blows and back off one. smile.gif

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post #12 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Thanks for the clarification of what that loose term meant.

My GT 430 was $60 but it doesn't do Jinc very well. Other than that I like it. If Jinc were available when I got it I probably would have got a more robust card but my set up looks fantastic.

The whole things gets tricky when you are trying to run evertyhing including Ceton Cable TV through JRiver. The timing delays that JRiver adds to the Ceton decode, deinterlace and render pipeline can come across as tuner issues if you could not fall back on WMC and see it is all working fine. I really want to get it all my media from HTPC to playback inside JRiver as Live TV with WMC is constrained on Codecs... it breaks easily.

I have actually fooled around with Jinc AR with 8 taps.. The 7790 will do DVD video just fine using DXVA scaling in mad and Jinc 8 AR. It is amazing how much better the color is especially how much noise comes out, replaced with real color. I have a couple of really messy DVDs that have major issues, the content on them is great the transfers are horrible. I use them as torture tests. One has cadence issues and is dark and muddy unless rendered very well, The other is a Cyndi Lauper DVD that I assume may have been remastered S-VHS. In any case they are transformed by the DXVA scaling with Jin 4 or 8 AR.

DXVA scaling is not that good obviously considering the options madVR offers. I just get frame drops with any of the madVR image upscaling options in mad for SD. Upscaling doesn't come in to play that much for HD except for the 720P to 1080P and it is already progressive so the GPU doesn't have to burn cycles deinterlacing. The software deinterlacing options which unload the GpU don't really work very well, passable for HD, ugly for SD. I am sure there are ways around that. I really just want to check boxes in mad and lav and have the hardware all do the work and get no frame dropped or repeated.

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post #13 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 04:35 AM
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Basically the average rendering time is the only criterion you should look at to see if GPU is fast enough. Rendering time should be:

- Films: << 41.7 ms = 1 / 24fps
- Videos: << 16.7ms = 1 / 60fps.

Playing back FHD contents (1080i60, 1080p60, let alone 1080p24) in a FHD display with Jinc3+AR / Jinc3+AR is a piece of cake even for Radeon HD 7750 / GTX 650 vanilla because of no image upscaling. If you see dropped frames even when rendering time is << 41.7ms / 16.7ms, then the cause is definitely something else.

Shader units (stream processors, SIMD [Single Instruction Multiple Data] engines in VLIW4/5, Compute Units in GCN etc.), shader clock and memory bandwidth

A simple rule of thumbs is:

- If there are enough shader units, you can relax shader clock and memory bandwidth.
- If the number of shader units is marginal, you may need faster shader clock and faster memory.

The shader units have to process a frame withing a stated time (41.7ms for film, 16.7ms for video), otherwise the frame will be dropped (up to queues). Faster memory / shader clock means that a smaller number of shader units is enough to do a given job.

PQ of Jinc4/8 is worse than Jinc3 because of too much ringing. Jinc3+AR is the best in quality.

AMD's DXVA upscaling is Bilinear.
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post #14 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 04:41 AM
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Seems like a Renethx/thread.

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