Why does blurays have multiple playlists of the same file? How to tell which one is the valid one? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

No, on the discs with this kind of protection, they are NOT all valid playlists. That is the point. Some of the invalid playlists have repeated scenes, missing scenes, a text warning inserted, out of order scenes, etc.

Hunger Games.

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post #32 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

Like I said there are multiple playlists with the exact runtime and exact chapter count as the correct playlist, but those playlists are made up of different stream files and will be out of order when played back.
So like I said the theory or your experience of correct runtime/chapters is not correct, so it is not just that easy.

Some screenshots of some incorrect playlists with the same runtime/chapter (2:19:54/ 16 Chapters) - compare them to my second screenshot in my last post which is the correct playlist (789) there is no difference other than the segment map.

This is not correct in the context of the original example of Hunger Games. Hunger Games does use playlist obfuscation and as someone else already said it's a Lionsgate thing. I haven't seen it from any other studio. The obfuscated playlists aren't the same size and are not the same runtime. It's because it's playing multiple scenes more than once. It actually made it pretty easy to pick out the correct playlist on Hunger Games as it was the shortest full length playlist. AnyDVD and Aimersoft Blu-ray ripper are currently the only two rippers that I tested that actually pulled the correct playlist. If you load the disc with AnyDVD and just check the status of AnyDVD there will be a short log file summary with the correct playlist number.

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post #33 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

This is not correct in the context of the original example of Hunger Games. Hunger Games does use playlist obfuscation and as someone else already said it's a Lionsgate thing. I haven't seen it from any other studio. The obfuscated playlists aren't the same size and are not the same runtime. It's because it's playing multiple scenes more than once. It actually made it pretty easy to pick out the correct playlist on Hunger Games as it was the shortest full length playlist. AnyDVD and Aimersoft Blu-ray ripper are currently the only two rippers that I tested that actually pulled the correct playlist. If you load the disc with AnyDVD and just check the status of AnyDVD there will be a short log file summary with the correct playlist number.

No, Hunger Games has the same protection (It's also a Lionsgate title), its just easier because there are less fake playlists and only one has the correct runtime.
My point was that not every disc is that easy, picking the longest/biggest file or the one with correct runtime will not always work as many people claimed in this thread.
Its not a big deal, either search online, or use a third party program if you have one, but hopefully MakeMKV will handle all these titles properly in a future update.
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post #34 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 01:26 PM
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DVDfab does a good job detecting the correct playlist. They update their software frequently to support newer disc like Hunger Games. Their technique is call path player, which tries to programmatically follow the menu to the correct title.
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post #35 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

No, Hunger Games has the same protection (It's also a Lionsgate title), its just easier because there are less fake playlists and only one has the correct runtime.
My point was that not every disc is that easy, picking the longest/biggest file or the one with correct runtime will not always work as many people claimed in this thread.
Its not a big deal, either search online, or use a third party program if you have one, but hopefully MakeMKV will handle all these titles properly in a future update.

Actually searching online is a pretty futile effort. I spent quite a bit of time searching when I first tried to rip Hunger Games with absolutely no mention of a solution. Cinema Squid's NEW Unofficial Blu-ray Audio and Video Specifications Thread is by far the best resource I've seen. I had no idea this existed until jkgiant posted (post #5) it today.

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post #36 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shortcut3d View Post

DVDfab does a good job detecting the correct playlist. They update their software frequently to support newer disc like Hunger Games. Their technique is call path player, which tries to programmatically follow the menu to the correct title.

Yea DVDFab seems to work well. I used the latest version to find the correct playlist for Hunger Games.
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post #37 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

Like I said there are multiple playlists with the exact runtime and exact chapter count as the correct playlist, but those playlists are made up of different stream files and will be out of order when played back.
So like I said the theory or your experience of correct runtime/chapters is not correct, so it is not just that easy.

Some screenshots of some incorrect playlists with the same runtime/chapter (2:19:54/ 16 Chapters) - compare them to my second screenshot in my last post which is the correct playlist (789) there is no difference other than the segment map.

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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

Right. It is amazing that some people in this thread cannot understand this simple (and annoying) issue.

I have ripped couple dozen BD discs. Most of them have fake play lists (yes, Lion's gate seems favor this method). None have identical runtime and chapter count as real playlist so far. So, Warrior disc pointed above seems to be an exception, not the norm according to my personal experience.
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post #38 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post


I have ripped couple dozen BD discs. Most of them have fake play lists (yes, Lion's gate seems favor this method). None have identical runtime and chapter count as real playlist so far. So, Warrior disc pointed above seems to be an exception, not the norm according to my personal experience.

I've ripped somewhere between 100-150, and yes it is an exception. It's quite an annoying exception, especially since I typically don't know whether or not it's a lionsgate film before ripping. I know it's right on the box, but I rarely see this. There are several listed, I found similar experiences before. Maybe it is strictly lionsgate, but when it happens to you then it will be clear that knowing the exact run time and chapter count can leave you scratching your head.

In the past, I found relief by the method I previously posted. More often than not, some lost soul has asked in the makemkv forums and fortunately someone usually said it's 000###.mlps with segment count of ###,###,### etc.
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post #39 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post


I have ripped couple dozen BD discs. Most of them have fake play lists (yes, Lion's gate seems favor this method). None have identical runtime and chapter count as real playlist so far. So, Warrior disc pointed above seems to be an exception, not the norm according to my personal experience.

A couple dozen? You do realize that there are thousands of blu-ray discs available, right?

No one said that the ones with identical looking playlists are "the norm". In fact, I specifically said it only occurs on a relatively small number of discs.
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post #40 of 57 Old 06-13-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 4th-horseman View Post

In the past, I found relief by the method I previously posted. More often than not, some lost soul has asked in the makemkv forums and fortunately someone usually said it's 000###.mlps with segment count of ###,###,### etc.

Right. googling or checking the forums is the best way (if AnyDVD cannot tell you). If it has been at least a week since the disc was released, chances are excellent that you will find something in either the AVS forum BDInfo thread, makemkv forums, or slysoft forums.
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post #41 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post


I have ripped couple dozen BD discs. Most of them have fake play lists (yes, Lion's gate seems favor this method). None have identical runtime and chapter count as real playlist so far. So, Warrior disc pointed above seems to be an exception, not the norm according to my personal experience.

Either way for the majority of MakeMKV users, buying third party software like TMT/PowerDVD for $50+ just to find the correct runtime/chapters or using software like DVDFab/AnyDVD to reveal the playlist is not a viable solution, and even then it may not work 100% of the time.

If this protection becomes more common, MakeMKV will need to handle these discs better in a future update - we know its possible if DVDFab/AnyDVD can do it.

Until then searching Google or as suggested looking at MakeMKV/DVDFab/Slysoft forums is probably the best bet if you don't have any of the other software.
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post #42 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 05:38 AM
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I've ripped well over 400 BD discs and I've only run across this situation on a handful of them.
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post #43 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

Either way for the majority of MakeMKV users, buying third party software like TMT/PowerDVD for $50+ just to find the correct runtime/chapters or using software like DVDFab/AnyDVD to reveal the playlist is not a viable solution, and even then it may not work 100% of the time.

I'm not saying they need to buy new software. First of all, almost all BD drive packages come with a free version of BD playback software. My BD burner came with Power DVD. My laptop came with WinDVD. Secondly, a standalone BD player (they are dirt cheap and much easier to operate than software) can tell you the same information.
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post #44 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

A couple dozen? You do realize that there are thousands of blu-ray discs available, right?

You do realize that there is something called statistics, don't you?
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No one said that the ones with identical looking playlists are "the norm". In fact, I specifically said it only occurs on a relatively small number of discs.

I simply stated that my method works for me so far without the need to google around. It's worth a try unless you encounter those special discs which I have not yet encountered. Your posts made it sounds like all those with fake playlists have identical runtime and chapter counts. Well the fact is most of them don't. How hard is it for you to understand?
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post #45 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 
Typically there will be only one playlist that matches the exact film time. Use the chapter count to quickly weed out the wrong one. It is not that hard.
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 
I saw some discs have more than a dozen fake playlists but the correct ones are very easy to spot. you are welcome to show me one example you claim existed.
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 
So, it is easy to tell which playlist is real, which are fake.
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

I simply stated that my method works for me so far without the need to google around.

You stated more than that (see above quotes). Your "method" is no method at all. Everyone who rips discs already knows that if the disc is not protected with playlist obfuscation, then it is easy to choose the correct playlist. So stating that is not helpful. It is also not helpful to tell people that it is easy to tell which one is fake on protected discs, when there are a few discs where it is not easy at all. It does not matter if most discs are easy -- when someone needs to rip a disc that is not easy, they will need to know how to do it.
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post #46 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

I'm not saying they need to buy new software. First of all, almost all BD drive packages come with a free version of BD playback software. My BD burner came with Power DVD. My laptop came with WinDVD. Secondly, a standalone BD player (they are dirt cheap and much easier to operate than software) can tell you the same information.

Again they are all steps that should not be necessary, why do I need PowerDVD/Standalone player to do what MakeMKV should be doing itself?
For me the whole point of MakeMKV is so you don't need to use PowerDVD, AnyDVD or a standalone player.

As far as I'm concerned MakeMKV can't handle these discs correctly without help, it should handle these discs better, hopefully it will soon.
No need for me to discuss it any further.

Also I think you will find 'almost all' BD drives do not come with software (4/4 that I've brought didn't) and even if they all did, knowing the runtime/chapters doesn't always work anyway, so it comes back to MakeMKV fixing these discs eventually, which I'm sure will happen.
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post #47 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

As far as I'm concerned MakeMKV can't handle these discs correctly without help, it should handle these discs better, hopefully it will soon.

It sounds like the MakeMKV developer ("Mike") is working on it. He writes:

http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6554#p27573
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This madness certainly will be dealt with.
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post #48 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

Again they are all steps that should not be necessary, why do I need PowerDVD/Standalone player to do what MakeMKV should be doing itself?
For me the whole point of MakeMKV is so you don't need to use PowerDVD, AnyDVD or a standalone player.

As far as I'm concerned MakeMKV can't handle these discs correctly without help, it should handle these discs better, hopefully it will soon.
No need for me to discuss it any further.

I agree with you on MakeMKV issues but until they fix it, you can have different work arounds.
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Also I think you will find 'almost all' BD drives do not come with software (4/4 that I've brought didn't) and even if they all did, knowing the runtime/chapters doesn't always work anyway, so it comes back to MakeMKV fixing these discs eventually, which I'm sure will happen.
Unless you purchased those as OEM bare drives. Even that, in my local Microcenter stores, they put bulk software discs along with the bulk drives. You just need to know that you need pick up the software discs:) These OEM software are keyed to the specific drive model. So they really don't care.

If a BD drive comes with a pre-build PC, the vendor typically will load a version of BD software as well.
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post #49 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post




You stated more than that (see above quotes). Your "method" is no method at all. Everyone who rips discs already knows that if the disc is not protected with playlist obfuscation, then it is easy to choose the correct playlist. So stating that is not helpful. It is also not helpful to tell people that it is easy to tell which one is fake on protected discs, when there are a few discs where it is not easy at all. It does not matter if most discs are easy -- when someone needs to rip a disc that is not easy, they will need to know how to do it.

Please read my first post in this thread. Quoting me out of context won't help you.
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post #50 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Please read my first post in this thread. Quoting me out of context won't help you.

I'm not expecting any help from you. Your posts clearly will help no one.
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post #51 of 57 Old 06-14-2013, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

Animated movies like Pixar movies are the worst culprits. The problem isn't always fake playlists, but often different "angles". Often what this entails is slight changes to the text in a movie (like the words on a newspaper) based on which language you choose (see here). You may see multiple playlists with the exact same length, same chapters, and same audio selections. It can be pretty frustrating. IIRC, I had issues with Finding Nemo and Bolt.
In my experience it's always 800.mpls for English with pixar titles.

Some companies are doing this maliciously though, but so far AnyDVD has not steered me wrong - and JRiver reads the AnyDVD info and uses that for playback.
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post #52 of 57 Old 10-05-2013, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post


Like I said there are multiple playlists with the exact runtime and exact chapter count as the correct playlist, but those playlists are made up of different stream files and will be out of order when played back.
So like I said the theory or your experience of correct runtime/chapters is not correct, so it is not just that easy.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortcut3d View Post

DVDfab does a good job detecting the correct playlist. They update their software frequently to support newer disc like Hunger Games. Their technique is call path player, which tries to programmatically follow the menu to the correct title.

 

I hope you guys are still following this thread, I am a newbie around here, please let me join in!

 

I fully agree with acejh1987: it is possible to have various playlists with the same runtime and the same chapter list (including time). Just say, simply, split the movie in several m2ts and change their order. The result is the same length and they could have the same chapterlist attached to them. Which one is correct?

 

The only one to be correct will be found if, as shortcut3d already pointed out, the ripper follows the BD menu to the correct playlist. Now the question is: do we have a ripper to do just that? I am not convinced Path Player in DVDFab does it, why is it part of the DVD tab (in settings) and not part of the Blu-Ray tab as well?

 

For BDs with multiple playlists, but different runtimes, I am using Nero Blu-ray player to play the mounted ISO. It navigates through menus in the same manner as a BD-player would do. This gives me the correct runtime, then I choose the correct playlist in BluRip. If I would know which playlist Nero is playing, the problem of identical runtimes would be solved as well.

 

Do you know of any player to display the mpls file during movie playback? or,

Do you know of any ripper which truly follows the menu path to the correct playlist?

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post #53 of 57 Old 10-05-2013, 05:42 AM
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Do you know of any player to display the mpls file during movie playback?

No licensed player that I know of will display the mpls info - TMT/PowerDVD/WinDVD/Nero don't.

Do you know of any ripper which truly follows the menu path to the correct playlist?

AnyDVD HD will attempt to list the correct playlist on these titles, in my experience it has always been right.
Although I can't say it is always 100%, because some users have reported bad playlists being listed too.

DVDFab will most likely have the same feature, I have never used it so I can't comment on if it works or not.
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post #54 of 57 Old 10-05-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't had any problems so far with DVDFab identifying the correct playlist.
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post #55 of 57 Old 10-05-2013, 08:20 AM
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Many thanks for your reply, acejh1987 and amarshonarbangla.

 

I'll go on using DVDFab more than the others for these kind of movies then. See how it goes. I've got only the Ripper license for that and I prefer to save the ISO, until I confirm that my final MKV is OK.

 

I just remember The Expendables 2 with no less than 92 (ninety-two, that is!) reasonably "correct" playlists, out of which 4 had the right runtime...

 

Thanks again.

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post #56 of 57 Old 10-05-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by amarshonarbangla View Post

I haven't had any problems so far with DVDFab identifying the correct playlist.

The first time I tried to rip The Hunger Games DVDFab didn't detect the correct list. It still doesn't detect the correct list for Now You See Me. AnyDVD HD detected both of those movies without any update.

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post #57 of 57 Old 10-05-2013, 02:32 PM
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I am not very familiar with AnyDVD. Does it process Bluray discs?

 

Edit: Sorry, you are talking about Slysoft AnyDVD... I'll give it a try first time I'll get one of these multi-playlists BDs.

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