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post #91 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 12:55 PM
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Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.

The comparison I am talking about is between the exact same drive except for rotational speed. If you take a 5400rpm drive and spin it to 7200rpm (or 7200 and spin it to 10K), the SNR goes down. That is obvious to anyone who knows how HDDs work. Also, if it were not the case, then you would be able to buy 10K or 15K rpm 4TB drives right now.

I did not specify the magnitude of the difference, because that depends on many factors that we do not know for each specific HDD. But that there is a difference is a consequence of the basic physics of the way HDDs work.

A lower SNR will have some effect on reliability and longevity. It may be a small effect (for some definition of "small"), but it is real. Just like spinning a drive faster uses more power and generates more heat. It may be a small effect, but it is there. You do not get something for nothing.
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post #92 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 01:20 PM
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I understand the points your making and I agree with them in theory. I just don't think it translates well to consumer drives available today.

The theory is right- but the reality is there's a ton more reason why hard drives fail that effects both 5400rpm and 7200rpm equally and the reality is they are about the same in reliability.


Personally, I have had much worse luck with 5400rpm drives than I ever have 7200rpm drives. I know many people complain about the low reliability of 5400RPM GREEN WD rives from 2009-2011. I am not sure the statistics but theres a decent sized crowd in most forums that all share the same bad experiences.
If I had to personally bet everything I own- I'd bet 7200rpm in general are more reliable. Not saying 5400rpm could not be more reliable- but current 5400rpm drives appear to not have been very well MFG or designed for that purpose and generally are not. So the reality is no improvement or change in reliability from what HDD has been for last 20 years.

A HDD is a HDD plain and simple. They all fail. No one can predict when or why or how many.

But suggesting a 5400rpm is more reliable when there is no data at all to support it (even if theory appears ok) is myth that is not proven. It would pain me to see people believe such and choose an inferior HDD based on irrational fear or concerns of 7200rpm HDD reliability. 7200rpm drives from Hitachi, WD, Seagate, Samsung or Toshiba (I've owned them all) are all equally reliable for the most part- and certainly the majority or at the very least the average of them is more than acceptable. I have not seen anyone actually report great reliability with 5400rpm drives. Most server forums people report the opposite- but I don't think the failures were spindle speed related.

If you ask me- Even if slower spindle speed did increase reliability in that one area- in general 5400rpm are not very well engineered in other areas so they fail just as often if not more often. I think this is the major place we disagree. I don't disagree with what your saying, or your theory in general sense. I do disagree with the suggestion that 5400rpm last longer in reality.

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post #93 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 01:35 PM
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I have explained twice now exactly what I mean in no uncertain terms, and yet you continue to compare apples to oranges and to claim that I said something that I did not say.
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post #94 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th-horseman View Post

Not sure, but I hypothesized in the following post why there woudn't likely ever be any such statistics.

I understand.

But at least one person in this thread mentioned that the statistics are quite clear on this subject. I am just waiting on seeing these said statistics. I did a quick search but did not see where he had posted them.

Please direct me if I missed it. If not, I guess I will keep waiting on him to post them...
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post #95 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 03:45 PM
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It's sad that the quality of your posting has done down so much in the last 12 months.

You used to contribute greatly to this forum. These days you seem more interested in positioning against me than you do in offering any value to the actual topic. It's been beaten to death that there is a serious lack of any quality statistics to allow for a shut and closed case. You've even admitted it.

At this point the demand for data is annoying and of no value to anyone.

We have clearly covered that I should not have said "statistics" and more appropriately said "opinion" since there is a lack of clear data or actual statistics. For that I am sorry. My intention was just making a strong point that slower spindle speeds do not increase HDD life, and 5400 rpm drives don't last longer than 7200rpm drives. My opinion is 7200 rpm is more reliable in reality- and there is some statistics that show this like the link you provided yourself where some 7200rpm drives seemed better. But there is also other cases where there is an opposite reality. In the end - the real obvious thing is they seem more about the same then they seem any different. That is what I really believe, and I actually only got aggressive with my stance because I'm sick of hearing how a slower spindle speed increases reliability; That's BS IMO.

I also clearly explained that I am not going chasing statistics for the amusement of others. Had I felt the endeavour was worthwhile I might have done so. But I clearly feel the requests are being directed at me for another reason other than for good discussion.

You should let this go.

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post #96 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Its has been statistically proven that beating a dead horse can bring it back to life, I would provide a link but I can't be bothered. biggrin.gif
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post #97 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Statistically- if you took a look at 5400rpm versus 7200rpm drives.. the 7200rpm drives last longer.

Will you please post the statistics that you referenced?
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post #98 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidT99 View Post

Its has been statistically proven that beating a dead horse can bring it back to life, I would provide a link but I can't be bothered. biggrin.gif

I'll admit I chuckled at this.
DavidT99 likes this.

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post #99 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I'll admit I chuckled at this.

Will you please at least admit that you don't actually have any "statistics" to back up your statement so we can just move on? Otherwise I want to see the data you referenced.
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post #100 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post


Will you please at least admit that you don't actually have any "statistics" to back up your statement so we can just move on? Otherwise I want to see the data you referenced.


This has been covered ad nauseum.

Quote:
This term is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as:
Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition or argumentum ad infinitum is an argument made repeatedly (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it any more. This may sometimes, but not always, be a form of proof by assertion.


I specifically said a few things to clarify that statement I typed in much haste without much thought. First, I remembered seeing data (from the website you actually linked yourself) that showed a few 7200rpm drives with better reliability and lower rate of defect in the past; this was the reason for the statement in the first place but on second thought I probably should have not said "statistically" and just left it as my suggested opinion. Secondly- I clarified my statement to my true feelings. My true feelings are that neither a 5400rpm or a 7200rpm drive are inferior or superior in reliability- or that a great difference in reliability exists between them. I generally believe they are the same. If I personally had to choose- I would side with 7200rpm being more reliable because I believe they have been around longer- and get used more in demanding enterprise applications, and that much of that engineering and parts get trickled down the line to consumer drives because of economies of scale. I have seen some statistics (you linked them above) that suggested there is not a huge discrepancy between enterprise and consumer HDD's in actual reliability and I attribute that to these reasons. In comparison the 5400rpm drives are newer to market and also a new design that is never proven in a demanding environment and shares no brother or sister products used for those purposes. That is probably why you see a decent failure rate with those 5400rpm drives and there has been some issues in the past with their reliability. 5400rpm drives were never engineered to be ultra reliable or durable, or designed for very demanding usage like the faster HDD's. It's only right now that we are even seeing the newest products like the Seagate NAS or the WD RED even try to tackle these issues. I believe the introduction of these drives and the marketing around them is to attract customers from a specific growing segment of HDD buyers, and also a bit of reaction to some of the issues the 5400rpm drives had in those configurations. So in general my feeling is most HDD's are the same and there's not enough difference between a 5400rpm and a 7200rpm in reliability to use that as an important factor in a purchase decision. The data you posted seems to suggest more that they are all the same than they are different- even though "statistically" you could pick out two models and make it show what you want to a small degree

For the very last time:

I should not have said "statistically" and rather just said my point without it.
I don't think there is much difference between 5400rpm and 7200rpm in reliability
I DO NOT think that 5400rpm are more reliable and I hate the myth that suggests that they are

I do think there is a serious difference between these HDD's in price, performance, and features - and that is much more important. (to me at least)

Can we let this go now ? This is like the 10th time I said all this and I'm nearly certain no one wants to read it anymore.

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post #101 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 05:03 PM
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When someone makes a very bold and baseless statement based on statistics --- I care and I want to see the data.
Quote:
This term is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as:
Having no basis or foundation in fact; unfounded.

Thanks for the clarification about your fabricated statement.
Quote:
This term is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as:
1. To make; create.
2. To construct by combining or assembling diverse, typically standardized parts: fabricate small boats.
3. To concoct in order to deceive: fabricated a convincing excuse.

I now know there was never and never will be any statistics. Thanks for clarifying.
Quote:
This term is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as:
1. A numerical piece of information.
2. A calculated numerical value (such as the sample mean) that characterizes some aspect of a sample set of data, and that is often meant to estimate the true value of a corresponding parameter (such as the population mean) in an underlying population.
3. One viewed solely as a piece of statistical or numerical information
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post #102 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 05:37 PM
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post #103 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 05:48 PM
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This is my favorite quote in the entire thread...
Quote:
Don't listen to Mfusick... He's lying!

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post #104 of 105 Old 06-21-2013, 08:40 PM
 
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There is no data showing a faster spinning HDD is less reliable than a slower spinning HDD because, well, it isn't. The rotational speed is not the underlying basis of longevity of a HDD. Oh sure, if you were to build a 500,000 rpm drive, I am quite sure the speed would be the cause of a fast drive failure...but with the speeds HDDs are normally made to run at it simply is a non-factor.

The reason they do not make 15K RPM HDD at 4TB is not because it will fail faster, but because they have yet to make it work reliably at all. The speed does not make it fail sooner - it makes it not work at all.
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post #105 of 105 Old 07-11-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

There is no data showing a faster spinning HDD is less reliable than a slower spinning HDD because, well, it isn't. The rotational speed is not the underlying basis of longevity of a HDD. Oh sure, if you were to build a 500,000 rpm drive, I am quite sure the speed would be the cause of a fast drive failure...but with the speeds HDDs are normally made to run at it simply is a non-factor.

The reason they do not make 15K RPM HDD at 4TB is not because it will fail faster, but because they have yet to make it work reliably at all. The speed does not make it fail sooner - it makes it not work at all.

Right. And I doubt there every will be any data showing slower spindle speeds are more reliable too.

There is a good review on Toms Hardware for the 4TB Seagate BTW:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/desktop-hdd.15-st4000dm000-4tb,3494.html



Less power consumption than a RED, Better performance, and a lower price biggrin.gif

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