**** So you've built your HTPC-NOW WHAT IS NEXT ?? How to get the "ULTIMATE" picture and sound quality from your HTPC !!!! (MADVR? SVP? XBMC? Mediabrowser? Jriver? ) - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I spoke too soon. R9 280X (HD 7970) can do N16 / CRAR for 720p60 (~13ms), but R9 270X (HD 7870) may struggle. R9 280X is 1.5 times better than R9 270X or R9 270X is only two thirds of R9 280X. I will test R9 720X this weekend. BTW what's your source of 720p60? I thought it's rare (older camcorders, some TV broadcast, 720p24 with SVP).

I'm interested in these results I'm about to buy a GPU card.

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Old 03-21-2014, 07:21 AM
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you may should wait for a fix in the amd driver first.

atm. interop ms can be very random between the same card. so benchmarks on that topic are not really reproduceable.

if someones r9 270 can do image doubling this doesn't mean your r9 270 can do it.

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Old 03-21-2014, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

you may should wait for a fix in the amd driver first.
atm. interop ms can be very random between the same card. so benchmarks on that topic are not really reproduceable.
if someones r9 270 can do image doubling this doesn't mean your r9 270 can do it.

I'm not sure if AMD is going to fix the OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop cost. But you're definitely right: According to some tests in the doom9 madVR thread, the interop cost varies greatly from one PC to the next, even with the very same GPU. So it's kinda hard to reliably product NNEDI3 performance with AMD GPUs at the moment... frown.gif I wish I had an AMD contact to talk to, but the old devrel AMD email address that used to work a while back doesn't work, anymore.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I'm not sure if AMD is going to fix the OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop cost. But you're definitely right: According to some tests in the doom9 madVR thread, the interop cost varies greatly from one PC to the next, even with the very same GPU. So it's kinda hard to reliably product NNEDI3 performance with AMD GPUs at the moment... frown.gif I wish I had an AMD contact to talk to, but the old devrel AMD email address that used to work a while back doesn't work, anymore.


Have you tried anyone at the AMD support forums ? They might put you in touch with the right guy ?

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Old 03-21-2014, 10:15 AM
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Tried the AMD forum in the past for other issues. Sometimes other developers tried to help, but I never got any (useful) replies from AMD. AMD developer support seems pretty much dead to me. Not that I'd have a direct contact at NVidia to talk to, either. But at least there seem to be some NVidia related guys which can forward important issues to the right places. I have a long standing bug I had raised with NVidia, too, though, which I'm still waiting to get a fix for. So the situation is pretty awful with both AMD and NVidia in any case. I guess you have to be a multi million dollar game company to get any sort of direct developer support from AMD or NVidia these days.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:07 PM
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I did a quick test and found that it's the PCI Express version that affects OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop the greatest.

PCIe 1.1: ~130fps
PCIe 2.0: ~250fps
PCIe 3.0: ~330fps (AMD), ~370fps (IVB Core i5) , ~420fps (Haswell)

I also saw the same symptom as StinDaWg's (very slow 41.7ms rendering time with HD 7770 PCIe 1.1 at neurons 16 720p24->1080p24 upscaling). So if you want to use NNEDI3, you should go with a PCIe 3.0 platform, in particular, Haswell.

CPU support

PCIe 2.0: All Sandy Bridge (LGA1155), All Ivy Bridge up to Core i3 (LGA1155), All Trinity / Richland (FM2)
PCIe 3.0: Ivy Bridge Core i5 and higher (LGA1155), all Haswell (LGA1150), all Kaveri (FM2+)

Update

More precise results. I ran OpenCLSpeedTest three times and took the average.



- Haswell PCIe 3.0 is the fastest in OpenCL <-> D3D9 interoperation, then IVB PCIe 3.0 (Core i5 and higher), then AMD (Kaveri) in the benchmark. However, the difference between them is smaller in the real-world video playback (measured by rendering time).
- The lower the PCIe link speed is, the higher the GPU utilization (meausured with HWiNFO64) is. I am not sure how to interpret it.
- If you insert a device in the second or third PCIe 3.0 x16 slot of a Z87 chipset motherboard, the graphics card works only in PCIe 3.0 x8 or even x4 link, that is of the same bandwidth as PCIe 2.0 x16 or PCIe 1.1 x16. So be careful.
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Old 03-22-2014, 12:55 AM
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Thanks Rene!
Madshi, what's your PCI Express version? Test results look a bit less "random" now, I suppose?

Burned by the Audio Inquisition
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Old 03-22-2014, 01:00 AM
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So I can't even get pci-e 3.0 on my G1620 w/ LGA1155 coming in? Damn. I guess I just don't understand enough about this stuff. I don't understand why what cpu you use will define how fast your graphics card will run, if the motherboard supports 3.0. madVR doesn't even use the cpu for any of it's major functions.

What rendering time did you get on the 7770 16 neurons at 3.0?

I guess the best thing to do would be to return all this and get a Haswell G1820 and motherboard? At least the ram will work, lol.
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Old 03-22-2014, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I did a quick test and found that it's the PCI Express version that affects OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop the greatest.

PCIe 1.1: ~130fps
PCIe 2.0: ~250fps
PCIe 3.0: ~330fps (AMD), ~370fps (IVB Core i5) , ~420fps (Haswell)

I also saw the same symptom as StinDaWg's (very slow 41.7ms rendering time with HD 7770 PCIe 1.1 at neurons 16 720p24->1080p24 upscaling). So if you want to use NNEDI3, you should go with a PCIe 3.0 platform, in particular, Haswell.

CPU support

PCIe 2.0: All Sandy Bridge (LGA1155), All Ivy Bridge up to Core i3 (LGA1155), All Trinity / Richland (FM2)
PCIe 3.0: Ivy Bridge Core i5 and higher (LGA1155), all Haswell (LGA1150), all Kaveri (FM2+)

That is quite interesting! It suggests, I think, that AMD internally does the interop by using some sort of copyback. Which is awful, of course. Both D3D9 and OpenCL data is stored in GPU RAM. Why would AMD need to read the data back to CPU RAM for interop?
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:45 AM
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I have an Asus P8 Z77-V Pro motherboard PCI-e3 and an intel core i5-3570K LGA 1155 ivy bridge and NNEDI3 will not run.
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:49 AM
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my numbers with r9 270 950/1400 haswell i3

480p30 -> 1080p 64 neurons luma spline3 ar/spline3 ar/spline3 ar

 

3.0 400 - 485     15.1 ms
2.0 245 - 256     17.7 ms
1.0 133 - 137     23.7 ms

looking at rendertimes 2.0 still looks "ok"

 

@madshi is it possible without a lot of work to create a copyback version of madvr with opencl? just to make 100 % sure.

Quote:
I have an Asus P8 Z77-V Pro motherboard and an intel core i5-3579K LGA ivy bridge and NNEDI3 will not run.

gpu? if you use the intel gpu, they are to slow way to slow. and with nvidia it's not working thx to a driver bug.

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Old 03-22-2014, 08:05 AM
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GPU=Sapphire Radeon Vapor-X HD 7770 GHZ OC 1 GB DDR5 DVI-I/DVI-D/HDMI/DP PCI-Express Graphics Card (11201-05-20G)
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

@madshi is it possible without a lot of work to create a copyback version of madvr with opencl? just to make 100 % sure.

Too much work just to check something.
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

my numbers with r9 270 950/1400 haswell i3
480p30 -> 1080p 64 neurons luma spline3 ar/spline3 ar/spline3 ar

3.0 400 - 485     15.1 ms

2.0 245 - 256     17.7 ms

1.0 133 - 137     23.7 ms
looking at rendertimes 2.0 still looks "ok"
I'm looking at possibly getting an R9 270 myself. Could you test with 720p24 and 720p60 luma doubling and see what numbers you get? renethx said 7870 may be enough for 720p60 doubling on a 1080p screen. r9 270 is very similar if not the same card.
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I'm looking at possibly getting an R9 270 myself. Could you test with 720p24 and 720p60 luma doubling and see what numbers you get? renethx said 7870 may be enough for 720p60 doubling on a 1080p screen. r9 270 is very similar if not the same card.

270X

Not much more. I saw a $179 one yesterday. The R265X might be an option too. That is basically a 7850 I think. The R7 270 I understood to be placed between the 7850 and 7870 - I could be wrong though. I think the X is the better option.

You can also buy 260X for about $89 like this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?SID=DDVl2LIWEeOnMrb8dtOeEw0_gTM-3_aTS_0_0&AID=10440897&PID=1225267&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-cables-_-na-_-na&Item=N82E16814202081&cm_sp=

That's $60 cheaper than 30 days ago. I like the direction things are headed. biggrin.gif

But it seems like you need PCI 3.0 support (haswell or Z87 seems like a solid option) and probably a 270X or higher to pull off what you want though.

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Old 03-22-2014, 08:15 PM
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The reviews I read show the R9 270 to be similar in performance to the 7870. A bit better in some a bit worse in others. It has lower clocked core than 7870 but faster ram. An overclocked R9 270 is basically an R9 270x. I saw an open box R9 270 go for $139.99 on Newegg yesterday but it sold out quick.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-r9-270-review-benchmarks,3669.html
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:57 PM
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Which software player can convert 2D to 3D?
I have tried TMT5, but the conversion looks weird, image is totally distorted & not watchable compare to what my Epson projector can do in terms of 2D to 3D conversion.
Or is there any specific settings in the TMT?
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post


I'm looking at possibly getting an R9 270 myself. Could you test with 720p24 and 720p60 luma doubling and see what numbers you get? renethx said 7870 may be enough for 720p60 doubling on a 1080p screen. r9 270 is very similar if not the same card.

it's the same card just a little bit lower core clock. i choose the r9 270 scs3 passive else i i would pick a r9 270x. there where better for the €/power when i was getting one.

720p60 is impossible i get 20.5 ms that's not even close so a 270x can't do it too.

with 72p024 -> 1080p24 i get 20.5ms too so this doesn't make sense for me at all...

so we enter this point again

Quote:

you may should wait for a fix in the amd driver first.

atm. interop ms can be very random between the same card. so benchmarks on that topic are not really reproduceable.

if someones r9 270 can do image doubling this doesn't mean your r9 270 can do it.

 

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Old 03-23-2014, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

720p60 is impossible i get 20.5 ms that's not even close so a 270x can't do it too.
with 72p024 -> 1080p24 i get 20.5ms too so this doesn't make sense for me at all...
Is this with 16 neurons for luma doubling and bicubic 75 for chroma? No debanding, ordered dithering, other features turned off? And pci-e 3.0?
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:51 AM
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haswell pcie 3.0

16 neurons spline3 ar for everything, else order dithering no other things except a 3d lut.

i need about 30 % more power to do this.

with bilinear downscaling, bilinear chroma upscaling and nothing else i'm still at 18 ms.

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Old 03-23-2014, 01:29 AM
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I guess I'll just give up trying to do 720p60 then. I'm not going to pay $200+ for a card just to get one feature that will work on a small percentage of my videos. Maybe AMD will eventually fix the problem, maybe not. Looks like I'm just going to ride my 7770 now since it's bare minimum for 1080p gaming and 720p24 nnedi. Hoping it can do 720p30 too. renethx?

Maybe I'll add an Arctic Accelero S1 Plus passive cooler for totally silent operation.
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:49 AM
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:43 AM
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Thanks for the detailed report!

Could you tell me if the 7770 is able to run 720p30->1080p30 N16/CRAR on Intel 2.0? My G1620 is coming in Monday, and I'd like to be able to know before I open the package and install everything whether it will be able to run that or not. It seems the real world improvement going from 2.0 to 3.0 Haswell isn't that big (~4ms) but it should be a big improvement over the lackluster 1.1 speeds (~14ms).
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:49 AM
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720p60 -> 1080p60 with R9 270X = HD 7870 @1050MHz:

BC75AR chroma + N16 doubler / CRAR downscaling: ~16.8ms. So R9 270X is slightly slower than required.
BC75 chroma + N16 doubler / CR donwscaling: ~16.1ms, there are still lots of dropped frames
BC75 chroma + N16 doubler / CR donwscaling @1200MHz: ~15.6ms, still too slow, lots of dropped frames.
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Could you tell me if the 7770 is able to run 720p30->1080p30 N16/CRAR on Intel 2.0? My G1620 is coming in Monday, and I'd like to be able to know before I open the package and install everything whether it will be able to run that or not. It seems the real world improvement going from 2.0 to 3.0 Haswell isn't that big (~4ms) but it should be a big improvement over the lackluster 1.1 speeds (~14ms).

As you see in the previous chart, the rendering time of upscaling 720p -> 1080p with N16 / CRAR and HD 7770 @IVB PCIe 2.0 x16 is 28.3 ms, that is enough smaller than 1/30fps = 33.3ms.
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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What is the development track for MadVR? Should I just get an R270x and enjoy jinc3 on my only 1920x1080 display for now and worry about the rest when I get a new display and GPU card ?

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Old 03-23-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

What is the development track for MadVR? Should I just get an R270x and enjoy jinc3 on my only 1920x1080 display for now and worry about the rest when I get a new display and GPU card ?
Currently, I am thinking I will revisit upgrading in 2015. I cannot get NNEDI3 to run for DVD going to a 1080/60 on my plasma with my ivy bridge motherboard, i5 CPU and AMD 7770 GPU. It seems reasonable to wait for 4K plus 265 compression and HDMI 2.0 or display port developments. Jinc3+AR provides very acceptable video.

If I needed a new motherboard or if new hardware and software improvements look like they will yield significant improvements in video quality I will upgrade.

But, I appreciate that madshi is moving forward.

And my thoughts are influenced by trying various madVR configurations without success in getting NNEDI3 to run on my existing system and my unwillingness to rebuild my computer at this point.
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been using Jinc3 and I have been very happy with it. I'll admit I am not fully up to speed on NNEDI3 yet, I have not even updated my MadVR to the latest build recently. I don't have a GPU card that can pull it off yet, My Radeon 6870 is oldschool but enough for film and 720p video. I hope to upgrade soon though. I doubt I need anything more until I update my display anyways.

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Old 03-23-2014, 09:16 AM
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I feel like I'm not understanding something here as I'm having no problem with my AMD 7770 with the following settings:

Chroma up scaling: jinc3/ar
Image up scaling: jinc3/ar
Image doubling: 1.5x Luma/64 neurons and 1.5x Chroma/32 neurons
Dithering: Error diffusion option 1

For a 720p video at 59.94fps rendering time is about 15.15ms
For a 480p video at 29.97fps rendering time is about 14.30ms

Both are within the needed times to avoid dropped frames.

Is there some setting I'm missing here that is causing others to have problems?

I am using my I7 for LAV video decoding. Is that what's saving me?
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

720p60 -> 1080p60 with R9 270X = HD 7870 @1050MHz:

BC75AR chroma + N16 doubler / CRAR downscaling: ~16.8ms. So R9 270X is slightly slower than required.
BC75 chroma + N16 doubler / CR donwscaling: ~16.1ms, there are still lots of dropped frames
BC75 chroma + N16 doubler / CR donwscaling @1200MHz: ~15.6ms, still too slow, lots of dropped frames.
What platform and PCI-E is that at? I feel like we're probably going to have to include this information now in posts as long as the differences between configurations are so large.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

As you see in the previous chart, the rendering time of upscaling 720p -> 1080p with N16 / CRAR and HD 7770 @IVB PCIe 2.0 x16 is 28.3 ms, that is enough smaller than 1/30fps = 33.3ms.
.
OK, I wasn't sure that the rendering times weren't completely linear based on video fps.
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What is the development track for MadVR? Should I just get an R270x and enjoy jinc3 on my only 1920x1080 display for now and worry about the rest when I get a new display and GPU card ?
r270x (or r270 or even 7770) will be good for everything with nnedi except 720p60 as long as your motherboard is 2.0+.
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