**** So you've built your HTPC-NOW WHAT IS NEXT ?? How to get the "ULTIMATE" picture and sound quality from your HTPC !!!! (MADVR? SVP? XBMC? Mediabrowser? Jriver? ) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 767 Old 05-10-2014, 05:32 PM
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So I upgraded from a Radeon 6450 to a 260X, and wow what a difference in processing/rendering times! Went from able to use only BC75 to using all level 5 scalers/settings.

I had run Nvidia for many years but tested out and then subsequently switched to the 6450 due to:

- having to use a custom resolution for Nvidia to get something close to 23.976 refresh rate and it still wasn't that close. Also using that custom resolution screwed up the black levels which I could fix, but then when not using that CR, it would be off again. Horrible.
- didn't like having to "enable" 3D when I wasnted to use it and disable it when not.

With the AMD I get 23.765 on both my Panasonic plasma and JVC 45. close enough to never drop a frame for Blu-rays. 3D mode works like it should: it turns on when you play a 3D movie and off when you don't! How easy.

One question:

Why is LZ3AR preferred over Jinc3AR for image upscaling?

It seems that in MadVR the the scalers are listed in a top down list in order of "quality" and jinc may have less sharpness that LZ, but isn't it the best since it's at the bottom. In my testing, LZ took less to render by about ~4 ms or so than Jinc. To my eye, in my short test, they looked the same. My average render times for Jinc with BDs are ~15+ms. With LZ tap 4 AR it's ~11+ms.

So what gives? I want to leverage other's testing and such so I'll go with what the group says, at least, initially.

Thanks.
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post #632 of 767 Old 05-10-2014, 09:56 PM
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J3AR is still preferred over LZ3AR if you don't use NNEDI3. If you use NNEDI3 (its' only 2x), you often need to upscale or downscale image further. For example,

480p -> 1080p: the scaling factor is 2.25 = 2 x 1.125
720p -> 1080p :the scaling factor is 1.5 = 2 x 0.75

In the first case, NNEDI3 x J3AR is more taxing than NNEDIA3 x LZ3AR with very little PQ improvement. So NNEDIA3 x LZ3AR is preferred. In the second case, NNEDI3 / CRAR or CRARLL is a good choice.

New levels:

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post #633 of 767 Old 05-11-2014, 06:19 AM
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Embeathome: "Guys, i have set today MPC-HC wih MadVR. I have 2 displays - old 720p Plasma and 1080p PJ, Benq W1070. I am using Media Browser 2. The problem is that when I stop/exit from movie back to media browser, my PJ searcher for source for some 5 seconds and when Media Browser finally pops up, then i see green flickering for approximately 1 second. Whole proces is very annyoning.
When i changed from madVR back to Enhanced Video Renderer in MPC-HC, problem dissapeared. When i stop/exit movie, it immediately returns to MB2 without any delay or lag.

What in madVR could cause this behavior? Could it be wrong setup of Devices in madVR? Or some other settings? I tried to disable "switch to matching display mode" but it didn't help at all.

On my old plasma TV there is no difference when using madVR or Enhanced Video Renderer, at least i am not able to see any.

I have no clue how to setup 2 displays in madVR, both are connected through Denon X-4000, initially i set just old Plasma TV and later on PJ, but when i turn off TV and turn on PJ, setting of PJ and PJ it self in devices is grey, like not used...

any idea would be much appreciated!"


I have lately been seeing this delay before video appears.

You can edit madVR to set up your devices. I could not figure out which GPU you are using but if you are using AMD, catalyst will allow you to set up an extended desktop with specifics for each display.

I did come to the conclusion that Media Browser 2 is no longer reliable and I installed Media Browser 3 Server and Media Browser Classic last night. The new Media Browser struck me as a work in progress. I set up MPC-HC as an external player. Some things are not working. Media Browser Classic will start a DVD .iso but I get video with no audio. Perhaps if I used the internal player that would solve the problem. I won't distract everyone with my fumbling around trying to figure the new media browser out.

I thought I was getting improved recorded TV playback video with media player classic using MPC-HC at madVR level 5, (the level may not matter I have not tested). I could not figure out how to delete a TV show I was done with.
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post #634 of 767 Old 05-14-2014, 11:34 PM
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I want to upgrade my GPU for 3D and madVR. My AVR supports HDMI v1.3. Does the GTX 750 Ti support dual audio streams? I want to connect one HDMI cable to the AVR for HD audio bitstreaming and another directly to the display.

Pros:
  • Low power usage implies low heat and noise
  • Will do madVR level 5

Cons:
  • Only has 640 stream processors and may not have enough head room for future madVR upgrades

Anything else I should consider?
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post #635 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 12:10 AM
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Yes, GTX 750 Ti support dual audio streams, but its performance in madVR is a lot worse than Radeon R7 260X (that also supports dual audio stream, while HD 7790 doesn't). For example, rendering time in upscaling 720p60 to FHD at Level 4:

R7 260X with 13.12 driver: 13.5ms (i.e. no dropped frame)
R7 260X with 13.12 driver / PCIe 2.0: 14.2ms (no dropped frame yet)
R7 260X with 14.4 driver: 15.5ms
GTX 750 Ti: 20ms
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post #636 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 12:30 AM
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Thanks renethx, I guess R7 260X is back as first choice.
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post #637 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 12:46 AM
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I forgot to mention one important thing. AMD GPU's performance heavily depends on the PCI Express version. If your platform supports only PCie 2.0, the performance is slightly worse.

R7 260X with 13.12 driver and PCIe 3.0: 13.5ms
R7 260X with 13.12 driver and PCIe 2.0: 14.2ms (no dropped frame)

This is still a lot better than GTX 750 Ti.
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post #638 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 01:06 AM
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I have PCIe 2.0.
I also have a Clarkdale core i3, H55 chipset. Will that also degrade performance?
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post #639 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 01:21 AM
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Yes, but you shouldn't worry. R7 260X is fast enough to upscale all video formats to FHD at Level 5 even with PCIe 2.0, except for upscaling 720p60, for which you have to select Level 4.
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post #640 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yes, but you shouldn't worry. R7 260X is fast enough to upscale all video formats to FHD at Level 5 even with PCIe 2.0, except for upscaling 720p60, for which you have to select Level 4.

There is no way to make it make the switch automatically though right ?

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post #641 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 07:04 AM
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post #642 of 767 Old 05-15-2014, 02:02 PM
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Are there any ways to improve blurays further?
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post #643 of 767 Old 05-17-2014, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

For example, rendering time in upscaling 720p60 to FHD at Level 4:

R7 260X with 13.12 driver: 13.5ms (i.e. no dropped frame)
R7 260X with 13.12 driver / PCIe 2.0: 14.2ms (no dropped frame yet)
R7 260X with 14.4 driver: 15.5ms
Any idea why newer drivers perform worse? Is this only affecting NNEDI3 rendering times?
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post #644 of 767 Old 05-17-2014, 08:26 AM
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post #645 of 767 Old 05-18-2014, 12:26 PM
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What's the next step up from a Radeon HD7790 in terms of having a fair bit more oomph for madVR? I have this one. It can't keep up with Error Diffusion on 1080i60 (video content deinterlaced) using L5 settings. My drivers are a few months old though. Prior to Error Diffusion I could play anything without issue with L5 settings. I don't have any issues with any Blu-Ray or IVTC'd 1080i60 Error Diffusion and smooth motion.
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post #646 of 767 Old 05-18-2014, 01:42 PM
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R9 270X (almost identical with HD 7870), roughly 1.5 times better than 7790.
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post #647 of 767 Old 05-18-2014, 03:11 PM
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Alright, thanks. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a very quiet one of those.
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post #648 of 767 Old 05-18-2014, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

No idea. Only affects NNEDI3.
I went back to 13.12 driver and I'm getting 3-5ms lower rendering time for 720p24 content at the same settings as 14.4. I'll stay at 13.12 until I hear otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Alright, thanks. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a very quiet one of those.
I wouldn't upgrade your card just for error diffusion. I haven't talked to anyone here or at doom9 that says they can tell a difference between the default ordered dithering and error diffusion. Even madshi says that error diffusion should be "technically" better but even he can't see any difference.

If your card can already do debanding, smooth smotion, NNEDI3 ect. then I would just keep what you have. I'm curious though, can your card (I was at one time looking at buying that exact model) do NNEDI3 at 1080p with 720p60 content? 7770 can't, 7850 can, I'm curious what fits in between.
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post #649 of 767 Old 05-19-2014, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I'm curious though, can your card (I was at one time looking at buying that exact model) do NNEDI3 at 1080p with 720p60 content? 7770 can't, 7850 can, I'm curious what fits in between.
I'm not sure. My display isn't quite 1920x1080. It's a RP-CRT and I have the resolution a little lower to minimize overscan. I have NNEDI3 set to only work at 1.5x or greater so it doesn't kick in on going from 1280x720 to my resolution.
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post #650 of 767 Old 05-20-2014, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

R9 270X (almost identical with HD 7870), roughly 1.5 times better than 7790.
How does the R9 280 compare to the R9 270X for madVR? Is it another significant jump or relatively minor?
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post #651 of 767 Old 05-20-2014, 08:33 AM
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Performance increases by the factor of:

R7 260X -> R9 270X: 1.36x
R9 270X -> R9 280X: 1.52x
R9 280X -> R9 290X: 1.38x

What resolution is your display? There is little improvement with a FHD display by going from 270X to 280X. But improvement is bigger with WQHD and UHD displays. It is very hard to cool down 280X and 290X by air (260W and 300W respectively).
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post #652 of 767 Old 05-20-2014, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Performance increases by the factor of:

R7 260X -> R9 270X: 1.36x
R9 270X -> R9 280X: 1.52x
R9 280X -> R9 290X: 1.38x

What resolution is your display? There is little improvement with a FHD display by going from 270X to 280X. But improvement is bigger with WQHD and UHD displays. It is very hard to cool down 280X and 290X by air (260W and 300W respectively).
My current display is slightly less than 1920x1080 (RP-CRT with a custom res to minimize overscan). I plan on replacing it with a UHD display in the next few months assuming something acceptable goes on sale. However, I don't think even the most powerful one is going to be able to run high end settings scaling all the way to UHD, not to mention none of these cards have HDMI 2.0.
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post #653 of 767 Old 05-20-2014, 09:14 AM
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R9 290X can upscale all contents to UHD with Level 4 and all except for FHD 60i/p with Level 5. But look at power consumption. I recommend water-cooling for a quiet system.



The current Rx 2xx cards (or any other graphics cards, except for the third point below) lack:

- HDMI 2.0: This can be circumvented by using a "passive" DP 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 adapter (such an adapter is non-existent yet).
- HDCP 2.2: It looks like all 4K Blu-ray and 4K streaming require this. If you rip 4K contents without DRM, this is no problem, of course.
- H.264 4K decoder: You can use Intel Quick Sync video decoder instead.
- H.265 decoder.

Rx 3xx is coming soon (how soon depends on the progress of TSMC 20nm process). R9 370X may come July-August this year according this source. I don't know what features in the above are supported.
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post #654 of 767 Old 05-20-2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

R9 290X can upscale all contents to UHD with Level 4 and all except for FHD 60i/p with Level 5. But look at power consumption. I recommend water-cooling for a quiet system.



The current Rx 2xx cards (or any other graphics cards, except for the third point below) lack:

- HDMI 2.0: This can be circumvented by using a "passive" DP 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 adapter (such an adapter is non-existent yet).
- HDCP 2.2: It looks like all 4K Blu-ray and 4K streaming require this. If you rip 4K contents without DRM, this is no problem, of course.
- H.264 4K decoder: You can use Intel Quick Sync video decoder instead.
- H.265 decoder.

Rx 3xx is coming soon (how soon depends on the progress of TSMC 20nm process). R9 370X may come July-August this year according this source. I don't know what features in the above are supported.
It's probably not a good time to be buying a new graphics card for UHD. As you note, there are still features missing, the power draw is huge, and the R9 290X is anything but cheap. My thought was to maximize the 1080p settings and let the TV scale that to UHD or use the "pure direct" mode for 1080p until a more suitable video card for UHD comes out. As a result having something like L6 settings with N128 luma and N64 Chroma (or similar) is potentially of interest.
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post #655 of 767 Old 05-20-2014, 12:53 PM
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R7 260X (HD 7790) is enough to upscale movies to UHD. It's videos that are difficult to upscale (2.5 times harder).



By creating proper profiles, you can get the most out of any graphic card.
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post #656 of 767 Old 05-30-2014, 08:59 PM
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Just saw a Powercolor 260x for sale after rebate ($30) for $70. Newegg I believe. Great deal IMHO. I just payed $99 for an XFX version of the 260X.
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post #657 of 767 Old 06-01-2014, 06:44 AM
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So........as I was saying on d9, you can't create informations that didn't exist in the source so basically what we get with NNEDI is halo-free EE(especially with 16/64x luma) and sometimes artificial looking upscales that tend to make chroma look "waxy"? I've seen untouched BD's compared against 720p encodes upscaled with spline and they looked identical.

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post #658 of 767 Old 06-01-2014, 06:59 AM
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Here are some comparisons of Spline vs. Lanczos vs. NNEDI3 with a blu-ray movie, not test patterns like we've seen before. Surprisingly Lanczos looks the best. Not sure what to think of that as I still prefer NNEDI3 overall because diagonal lines look so good and ringing is minimized.
Quote:
I don't doubt for a second that nnedi gives higher perceptual quality (=much less artifacts) than the others, I just don't know if that is not at the expense of being "true to the original source", which is why I am curious about an actual comparison to the source for HD content. I will try to download the whole filter pack and make some comparison screenshots, let's hope it does not mess up the other .dll-s biggrin.gif

Having said that, when using nnedi(), what would be the preferred downscaler for optimal quality?

EDIT: nevermind, it's just a single .dll biggrin.gif

EDIT2: Here is a comparison from "Filth", which has some nice grain:

nnedi3 - Source - Spline36

n0RTBZc.jpg DGkwd0p.jpg HMSXfwj.jpg


Script: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
a=dss2("F:\Filth.2013.1080p.BluRay.DTS.x264\Filth.2013.1080p.BluRay.DTS.x264.mkv")
c=a.Subtitle("Source")
b=a.Spline36Resize(1280,544).nnedi3_rpow2(rfactor=2,cshift="spline36resize",fwidth=1920,fheight=816).Subtitle("720p-to-1080p via nnedi3")
d=a.Spline36Resize(1280,544).Spline36Resize(1920,816).Subtitle("720p via Spline36")
Interleave(b,c,d)

Compared to the source, nnedi3 definitely looks a bit softer than Spline. I saw the difference between needi3-processed clip and the 1080p source immediately on my computer screen and can imagine that it would be only worse on a big TV screen. Note that by default nnedi3_rpow2 uses 128 neurons!

And another one via lanczos 8 taps (sharpest there is?):

0p8NY3I.jpg AC6Xz18.jpg oBB1Mfb.jpg

Script: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
a=dss2("F:\Filth.2013.1080p.BluRay.DTS.x264\Filth.2013.1080p.BluRay.DTS.x264.mkv")
c=a.Subtitle("Source")
b=a.Spline36Resize(1280,544).nnedi3_rpow2(rfactor=2,cshift="lanczosresize",fwidth=1920,fheight=816,ep0=8).Subtitle("nnedi3+lanczos")
d=a.LanczosResize(1280,544,taps=8).LanczosResize(1920,816,taps=8).Subtitle("720p via Lanczos")
Interleave(b,c,d)

nnedi() is still noticeably softer than the lanczos-only counterpart when compared to the source.

Maybe for 720p it would make more sense to just use a separate filter dedicated to anti-aliasing only, like the ones there is already for debanding and deringing.
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post #659 of 767 Old 06-01-2014, 07:04 AM
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Are there any HDMI 2.0 graphics cards on the horizon? I need it for my 4k TV (XBR-65X900A) to support 4k resolutions at 60Hz.

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post #660 of 767 Old 06-01-2014, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Here are some comparisons of Spline vs. Lanczos vs. NNEDI3 with a blu-ray movie, not test patterns like we've seen before. Surprisingly Lanczos looks the best. Not sure what to think of that as I still prefer NNEDI3 overall because diagonal lines look so good and ringing is minimized.

From reading your posts I get the impression your the type of guy that enjoys the sharpness control on his display not set to zero, and prefers the edge enchantment turned on from a distance. Traditionally sharpness is set to zero amongst videophiles because it's an illusion and doesn't create sharper image or more pixels it just causes ghosting and other problems that may appear sharper from a distance to an unknowing eye.

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