**** So you've built your HTPC-NOW WHAT IS NEXT ?? How to get the "ULTIMATE" picture and sound quality from your HTPC !!!! (MADVR? SVP? XBMC? Mediabrowser? Jriver? ) - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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post #781 of 810 Old 08-06-2014, 09:00 AM
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Sorry I misspoke. I use Quicksync in LAVfilters and tried DXVA in MadVR settings for image upscaling/ downscaling. It does say active by the Quicksync setting when the video is playing, but avcodec shows below that.
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post #782 of 810 Old 08-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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like i said before madVR doesn't care for your CPU. and at the moment software decoding is used. i cant say you why there are a lot of possible reasons.
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post #783 of 810 Old 08-06-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Sorry I misspoke. I use Quicksync in LAVfilters and tried DXVA in MadVR settings for image upscaling/ downscaling. It does say active by the Quicksync setting when the video is playing, but avcodec shows below that.
Celeron N2830 (Bay Trail-M) is a very weak CPU/GPU. Try DXVA2 (native) in LAV Video Decoder and DXVA2 up/downscaling in madVR (all the others are set to defaults). If you want subtitles, use the subtitle engine integrated in MPC-HC. An external subtitle filter such as XySubFilter won't work with DXVA2 (native), I guess.

QuickSync video decoder or DXVA2 (copy-back) loads CPU more than DXVA2 (native).

Playing back 1080i60 contents smoothly with Celeron N2830 + madVR is out of question (Celeron N2830 graphics has only 4 EUs and deinterlacing uses most of them).

Last edited by renethx; 08-06-2014 at 11:05 AM.
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post #784 of 810 Old 08-06-2014, 12:11 PM
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Yeah I only want to play 1080i60 content from WMC. I don't plan on running it through MadVR. Really just looking to get quality smooth, reliable framerate performance out of the PC with no frills and let another device do the scaling, etc where available.

Right now this PC is going to be an audio server and WMC ota box in my theater. Movie playback was just going to be a plus as I use a Dune Smart D1 normally. But if I was successful with the movie playback I was going to buy another one of these to replace my Gigabyte GA-E7AUM-DS2H Nforce 9400 / Core2 duo 8200(?) that I was using for the "main" family tv in the house that also does WMC OTA dvr and media browser movies. If playback of full res BD MKV rips is too much for this, then I will seek out one of the core i5 NUCs or something like that....

Last edited by hifiaudio2; 08-06-2014 at 12:15 PM.
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post #785 of 810 Old 08-06-2014, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post
If you want subtitles, use the subtitle engine integrated in MPC-HC. An external subtitle filter such as XySubFilter won't work with DXVA2 (native), I guess.
xy >sub<filter works with all decoder. xy vsfilter needs the picture before it gets to the renderer.
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Yeah I only want to play 1080i60 content from WMC.
what deinterlacer are you using?
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post #786 of 810 Old 08-07-2014, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
xy >sub<filter works with all decoder. xy vsfilter needs the picture before it gets to the renderer.
That's a nice feature of XySubFilter.

A shortcoming of DXVA2 (native) is that it does not work with madVR's IVTC.
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post #787 of 810 Old 08-08-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
xy >sub<filter works with all decoder. xy vsfilter needs the picture before it gets to the renderer.

what deinterlacer are you using?
Well.. Dont know... whatever WMC uses I guess? I have never really thought about it when playing back OTA. That is the only 1080i60 I play. What would be the "default" deinterlacer that WMC uses to play that?

I still haven't paid for and installed WMC on this windows 8 box. I fear that I will end up not keeping the computer or swapping it for a NUC and am not sure that the Media center pack license transfers, so I havent bought it yet.

In addition to that deinterlacer question, I have a followup on the NUC. Is there much difference in the i5 4250u / HD graphics 5000 and the i3-4010U HD graphics 4400 performance for the purposes I have outlined (again, just WMC OTA, a Jriver music server (connected with USB to a preamp/processor/dac), and full quality BD rip MKV player using Media Browser as the front end and either its native player or launching MPC-HC and using madVR to whatever capabilities the processor is powerful enough to do. So is there a performance difference worth paying the extra for the i5?
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post #788 of 810 Old 08-08-2014, 10:26 AM
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WMC uses Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder (msmpeg2vdec.dll) and EVR, that supports DXVA2 so that the deinterlacer is that of Intel HD Graphics.

Intel HD graphics 4400 is enough for your purposes. 4400 vs. 5000 = 20EUs vs. 40EUs. Extra 20EUs can be used for algorithms of madVR, but with little PQ improvement, not worth $100. If you are serious about PQ using madVR, you should go with a discrete card anyway.

Last edited by renethx; 08-08-2014 at 10:30 AM.
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post #789 of 810 Old 08-08-2014, 11:06 AM
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Ok cool, thanks. I have a powerful i7 PC with a 780ti that I messed around with madVR on , but I found that in practice I am unwilling to move that PC, even though its a SFF build, into the theater. So I am looking for a NUC sized unit that can just stay connected. Since this PC will also be a music server, I dont really want something with a top notch card and CPU that will be a power hog when being used for mundane tasks like music. Not to mention the expense of putting together another relatively high powered PC. Before buying though I will check your buying guide to see what it would cost me these days for a GPU that is up to the task.

I am kind of an all or nothing type of person though. I either want the simplest, highest value solution that will get the job done, or the absolute best that allows me to turn on every madVR feature.
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post #790 of 810 Old 08-08-2014, 12:35 PM
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Looks like the i3 NUC is $288 right now vs $349 for the i5. So $62. Not much of a monetary difference, but no reason to just waste money either if I literally wont be able to tell a difference with what I am doing. Worth it?

Oh and do you guys know if there is a fan noise difference in those two NUCs? That is probably more important than the price.

And what is the current most recommended video card if I did for some reason decide to go all out? 290x?

How does idle power draw differ between something like a NUC and a top notch PC with higher end Haswell i7 and a single top vid card like a 290x?

Renethx I saw MPC-BE mentioned in a somewhat recent post by you... what advantages might using that have over MPC-hc?

Last edited by hifiaudio2; 08-11-2014 at 08:15 AM.
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post #791 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 06:16 AM
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Is the r290x the definitive "best" single GPU for HTPC right now? It can do the highest level of madVR plus doesnt have the "limited/full" bug, correct?
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post #792 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Is the r290x the definitive "best" single GPU for HTPC right now? It can do the highest level of madVR plus doesnt have the "limited/full" bug, correct?
Yup. But you would want a huge air cooler or even water cooling.

No Radeon card has the "limited/full" bug if you mean by that not being able to switch between limited and full RGB without a registry hack.
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post #793 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 09:19 AM
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Or the simpler hybrid option, a NZXT Kraken G10 plus a closed loop cooling solution....
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post #794 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 09:21 AM
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Yup. But you would want a huge air cooler or even water cooling.

No Radeon card has the "limited/full" bug if you mean by that not being able to switch between limited and full RGB without a registry hack.
Ok Great thanks. I am trying to decide whether to go with a NUC or go ahead with a new full fledged top of the line unit. So if you were starting from scratch that is the card you would buy right now?

And if you dont mind, check post 790 above for a few related questions. I dont want to build a top notch unit with that card if the idle power draw will be off the charts compared to an idle NUC, or when just using it as a Jriver music server, etc...

Thanks for the advice!
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post #795 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
So if you were starting from scratch that is the card you would buy right now?

And if you dont mind, check post 790 above for a few related questions. I dont want to build a top notch unit with that card if the idle power draw will be off the charts compared to an idle NUC, or when just using it as a Jriver music server, etc...

Thanks for the advice!
Definitely no. R9 290X costs $500 and water cooling $500, without HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2, 4K H.264/H.265 decoder. Right now Radeon R9 270X is a good choice, that is capable of SD/HD/FHD 30fps to 4K Level 5 upscaling.

The idle power of a desktop PC with a discrete graphics card is something like 35W, while that of a NUC is < 10W. The difference is ~30W (I don't think that's a big difference).

Last edited by renethx; 08-14-2014 at 01:27 PM.
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post #796 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 11:05 AM
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Ok cool... there are a few 290x cards going on Ebay now in the low 300 range. Are those just crazy loud or something?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40
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post #797 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 12:18 PM
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Ok cool... there are a few 290x cards going on Ebay now in the low 300 range. Are those just crazy loud or something?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40
Yes, loud. This one is perhaps the quietest. A large case is required, of course.
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post #798 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 01:01 PM
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Ok cool thanks.. I will take a look. The HTPC would be behind my equipment rack that is in its own closet in the hallway outside of my theater (airflow is fine in there, though), so noise, within reason, is not a "major" concern...and size of the case doesnt matter, other than paying for a tower.

Still, no reason to waste money on it if you think its of not much use just performing 1080p24 to UHD upscaling of MKV blu ray rips.
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post #799 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 01:20 PM
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you should wait for a GPU with HDMI 2.0 if you are going to use UHD
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post #800 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Still, no reason to waste money on it if you think its of not much use just performing 1080p24 to UHD upscaling of MKV blu ray rips.
Yes, R9 270X is enough to upscale SD/HD/FHD 24fps contents to UHD even with higher quality settings (e.g. Level 5 = NNEDI3 32). You will need R9 290X to upscale 60fps contents, but this is pointless without DisplayPort support in the display device.
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post #801 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 01:55 PM
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Ok thanks again. I will just go with that for now and wait for HDMI 2.0 cards to upgrade. Since my 1080i60 content is coming from Windows media center, how does one make it use madVR to scale and deinterlace anyway?
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post #802 of 810 Old 08-14-2014, 07:24 PM
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Since my 1080i60 content is coming from Windows media center, how does one make it use madVR to scale and deinterlace anyway?
You can't use madVR with WMC.

WMC internal player: deinterlacing: GPU driver's via DXVA2, upscaling: GPU driver's via DXVA2
madVR: deinterlacing: GPU driver's, upscaling: its own.

If you use WMC internal player, you'd better output 1080p60 and leave upscaling to the 4K display (you can't output 4Kp60 without DisplayPort anyway). Then any PC is good enough. 4K display's upscaling is usually a lot better than GPU driver's (except for cheaper 4K PC monitors).

Last edited by renethx; 08-14-2014 at 08:27 PM.
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post #803 of 810 Old 08-15-2014, 06:26 AM
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So do you set output for RGB and 0-255 in both CCC and LAV video? I havent played with CCC in a long time so I dont know all of the settings that are there until I build the new PC.
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post #804 of 810 Old 08-15-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post
You can't use madVR with WMC.

WMC internal player: deinterlacing: GPU driver's via DXVA2, upscaling: GPU driver's via DXVA2
madVR: deinterlacing: GPU driver's, upscaling: its own.

If you use WMC internal player, you'd better output 1080p60 and leave upscaling to the 4K display (you can't output 4Kp60 without DisplayPort anyway). Then any PC is good enough. 4K display's upscaling is usually a lot better than GPU driver's (except for cheaper 4K PC monitors).
Renethx is pretty much correct. I have found that using media browser theater with MPC-HC as the default player it is possible to upscale 720 wtv media center recorded TV files. However, I lose remote control functions. I can control playback with a mouse/keyboard. There are trade offs to get the better resolution. I have read that MPC-HC may stop supporting .wtv.

If you try to go over 1080 with windows media center you will get an error message, but it as likely as Renethx said that you can let a 4K TV then do the upscaling.
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post #805 of 810 Old 08-19-2014, 06:38 AM
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I have found a nice used laptop with way more power than a more expensive Intel NUC (Core i7 4700MQ vs i5 4250U), but yet again the laptop doesn't have Gig Ethernet. It does have 10/100 ethernet.

If its serving as the media server for the whole house (MediaBrowser 3 server), both in outputting 1080p blu ray mkv video to a connected TV, as well as sometimes transcoding to other tvs in the house for a Roku (with mediabrowser channel), do you think the network difference will come into play?

I have already bought a gig e to usb 3.0 adapter, so would that be better than the 10/100 because of the extra bandwidth, or would there be possible extra latency introduced by the adapter that would make it a worse option than just using the 10/100? Or is the 10/100 plenty?
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post #806 of 810 Old 08-19-2014, 08:03 AM
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I have already bought a gig e to usb 3.0 adapter, so would that be better than the 10/100 because of the extra bandwidth, or would there be possible extra latency introduced by the adapter that would make it a worse option than just using the 10/100? Or is the 10/100 plenty?
what are you talking about?
latency is not important in video streaming at all. it's important for gaming.
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post #807 of 810 Old 08-19-2014, 08:29 AM
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Used the wrong word.. perhaps ping was what I was looking for... seems as though earlier in this thread someone mentioned much higher pings using a usb adapter.

But in any case I just found the same spec laptop in a 17" model for only slightly more that has gig e. So it was a i7-4700mq with 8gb ram for $595 on the Lenovo outlet. That should serve me well for my needs while being only slightly more expensive than a NUC with a lesser processor and the same ram and HD.
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post #808 of 810 Old 08-19-2014, 09:05 AM
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Used the wrong word.. perhaps ping was what I was looking for... seems as though earlier in this thread someone mentioned much higher pings using a usb adapter.
ping is the same it doesn't matter for streaming.

it must be terrible high be for you get problems.
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post #809 of 810 Old Yesterday, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post
Yes, R9 270X is enough to upscale SD/HD/FHD 24fps contents to UHD even with higher quality settings (e.g. Level 5 = NNEDI3 32). You will need R9 290X to upscale 60fps contents, but this is pointless without DisplayPort support in the display device.
Do you know why today display devices don't support DisplayPort, Renethx?
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post #810 of 810 Old Yesterday, 12:20 PM
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Do you know why today display devices don't support DisplayPort, Renethx?
DisplayPort was set by VESA, an international non-profit corporation standards body for 'computer' graphics (NEC, ATI, etc.), while HDMI by eight CE companies (Hitachi, Panasonic, Phillips, Sony etc.).
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