**** So you've built your HTPC-NOW WHAT IS NEXT ?? How to get the "ULTIMATE" picture and sound quality from your HTPC !!!! (MADVR? SVP? XBMC? Mediabrowser? Jriver? ) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 19Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 830 Old 06-14-2013, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 23,615
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 929
So if you like many around here you've probably already built and enjoyed your HTPC right ? So what now ?

This thread is dedicated to tinkering, tweaking and perfecting your experience by maximizing your picture and sound quality. It's not intended to be about easy set up for a first time user. I'd like to hear some great conversation about the specific details and differences between different players, add on's, and different available hardware parts.

What is the best player?
What is the best hardware? Do you need a GPU card?
What is the best post processing products and settings?

Let the fun begin biggrin.gif
ellisr63 likes this.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 830 Old 06-14-2013, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 23,615
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 929
Currently there is many options for your HTPC. Popular options include using WMP/WMC native to Windows or the Integrated Player in XBMC. You can tweak the WMC player with codec packs like SHARK007 and even use stuff like SVP which can upconvert your frame rate using frame interpolation to generate additional frames to produce a very smooth and fluid image. There is a great SVP THREAD about it the specifics of SVP. Many people prefer a player like Jriver or MPC-HC instead of XBMC or WMC/Mediabrowser because they believe it offers additional benefits.

I have been using a combination of MPC-HC with MADVR and sometimes SVP and I have been happy with the results. But even that, there is a myriad of options and different levels of PQ that makes the entire matter confusing and interesting at the same time. There is a really good thread here about Advanced Set up of MPC-HC

Renethx had a really good post that got deleted earlier today that showed screen shots comparing different GPU and level settings that prompted me to create this thread. I'm looking forward to some good discussion about best PQ and maximum experience with HTPC. What is the best method for upconverting lower resolution content to higher ?

What is everyone using and why ?
ellisr63 likes this.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is online now  
post #3 of 830 Old 06-14-2013, 10:29 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MKANET's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: NORCAL
Posts: 5,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 17

A lot of people who build HTPC's don't necessarily focus/obsess on the "ULTIMATE picture and sound"; especially since most people end up just watching movies and TV's with either download-friendly compressed MKV video, streaming media/video, cableTV, or re-encoded HDPVR TV recordings, etc.  Even if it was for very high end bluray movie playback, it wouldn't make much sense to even use wasteful video processing like MADVR/SVP for Blu-ray movies anyway on a good 1080p display; at least for common bluray movies.  I've seen so many people who obsess on getting 23.976fps/23.976hz video; not realizing that even if they get that, it's not going to be the original motion picture/sound speed anyway.  They would be much better off in most cases to just lock onto 24.000hz on their display card  and use Reclock to adjust framerate and sound to 24.000fps CINAMA speed.

 

Whats much more impressive in IMO are HTPC configured for practical, multi-purpose functionality such as Media-Center type software that can do everything under one software and user interface; which isn't really possible with single-purpose, un-customizable STB's; even the higher end ones.


Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

SageTV: Unrestricted full-quality 12 tuner HD Premium Cable recording, including "On Demand" in HD + OTA ATSC + DVB-S2 + Blu-ray/HD-DVD serving 5 clients.
MKANET is offline  
post #4 of 830 Old 06-14-2013, 11:18 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Image upscaling under madVR

Screenshots in a FHD screen at ~30 seconds of [F1. SD] Ratatouille (2007).mkv (ripped from the DVD with MakeMKV). Pictures below are cropped to 480x270, then enlarged by x3 (1440x810) with Nearest neighboring (that won't affect PQ) for your convenience. Look closely at, for example:

- Curved TV screen frame: How smooth is it?
- Channel knob: Does the texture look natural?
- "HORIZ" knob: Is there ringing around the knob? (BTW "VERT" knob is underneath, not seen in pic.)

madVR Level 0 (Nearest Neighbor / Nearest Neighbor)



madVR Level 1 (Bilinear / Bilinear)



DXVA2 AMD (identical throughout all models of AMD Radeon cards, integrated or discrete)



DXVA2 NVIDIA (identical throughout all models of NVIDIA GeForce cards)



DXVA2 Intel (identical throughout all models of Intel SNB, IVB and Haswell iGPU)



madVR Level 2 (BiCubic75 / Lanczos3): This is madVR's default setting.



madVR Level 3 (BiCubic75+AR / Lanczos3+AR)



madVR Level 3.5 (BiCubic75+AR / JInc3)



madVR Level 4 (BiCubic75+AR / Jinc3+AR)



madVR Level 5 (Jinc3+AR / Jinc3+AR)



Comments

- madVR Level 0: The original.
- madVR Level 1: The most primitive algorithm. Image is blurry and dull. TV screen frame is juggy.
- DXVA2 AMD: Close to Level 2. Note that his works with EVR and XBMC, but not with madVR. madVR DXVA2 always reduces to Level 1 with AMD.
- DXVA2 NVIDIA: Close to Level 2
- DXVA2 Intel: Close to Level 3
- madVR Level 2: Lanczos is a very popular algorithm. Sharper, coarser with lots of ringing.
- madVR Level 3: Anti-ringing filter improves PQ greatly.
- madVR Level 4: Warmer, finer, natual. Actually it looks near perfect in my eyes. The best upscaling algorithm available today. Madshi's anti-ringing filter is the hallmark.
- madVR Level 5: The difference from Level 4 is not so clear in this screenshot (and in the majority cases), but there is definitely a difference in certain cases and Jinc3+AR chroma upscaling is better.

In a nutshell

- Lanczos: Sharper, coarser, metallic (based on trigonometric function)
- Jinc: Warmer, finer, woody (based on Bessel function)

Jinc (in particular with anti-ringing filter) is the best image (as well as chroma) upscaling algorithm. Garbage in, gospel out. smile.gif
Daekwan, ceru, Steve017 and 2 others like this.
renethx is offline  
post #5 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 03:53 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Image upscaling of a diagonal pattern under madVR

This is an artificial pattern, but helpful to identify the upscaling algorithm. Screenshots in a 4K UHD screen of diag FHD.mkv. Again cropped and enlarged by x3 for your convenience.

madVR Level 0 (Nearest Neighbor / Nearest Neighbor). This is the original pattern I created in 120x120 pixels.



madVR Level 1 (Bilinear / Bilinear). Looks dull.



madVR Level 2 (BiCubic75 / Lanczos3 [default]). Sharp, but lots of ringing.



madVR Level 3 (BiCubic75+AR / Lanczos3+AR). Anti-ringing filter removes ringing effectively.



madVR Level 3.5 (BiCubic75+AR / Jinc3). A lot finer than Lanczos, with ringing.



madVR Level 4 (BiCubic75+AR / Jinc3+AR). The best.



BTW there is a review on two 4K upscalers:

- Sony VPL-VW1000ES Picture Quality
- madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 853 - Doom9's Forum

OPPO BDP-103 4K scaling. It looks like Oppo does not have any anti-ringing algorithm.



"Reality Creation" by Sony VPL-VW1000ES 4K 3D Projector . Looks almost perfect.



So "Reality Creation" beats Jinc+AR? Not really. From the review:
Quote:
From having a look at the close-up zoomed shots above, you’re almost certainly thinking that Reality Creation is the clearly superior option out of the three. To that end, you’ll probably be surprised to hear that we often settled with the other two alternatives (RC off, and the OPPO 103's own scaler). This was simply because the texture enhancement/sharpening features that come as part of the “Reality Creation” suite could be a bit much, even with its “Resolution” setting at its lowest (we complained about the same effect on the Sony VPL-HW50ES). For example, we often found that light film grain could become coarser and thicker with the feature turned on, and that very sharp, wide-aperture shots looked just a bit too edgy. Furthermore, the jaggedness caused by losing the edge adaptive scaling wasn’t visible from a few feet away, and wasn’t an issue at all with the OPPO player.

Jinc+AR will remain one of the best methods to upscale FHD (and SD, HD too) to 4K UHD.
renethx is offline  
post #6 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 04:08 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
DXVA2 image upscaling under EVR, madVR (*) and XBMC

Each graphics card (driver) uses its own upscaling algorithm under EVR, madVR (*) and XBMC with DXVA2. I observed that the algorithm is identical throughout all the cards of each IHV. Here is a summary (accuracy is not guaranteed smile.gif):
Code:
      Scaling        |   AMD    |  NVIDIA  |   Intel    
--------------------------------------------------------
SD --> HD (1.5x)     | Lanczos  | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR 
SD --> FHD (2.25x)   | Lanczos  | Lanczos  | Lanczos+AR 
SD --> 4K UHD (4.5x) | Lanczos  | Lanczos  | Lanczos+AR 
HD --> FHD (1.5x)    | Bilinear | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR 
HD --> 4K UHD (3x)   | Bilinear | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR 
FHD --> 4K UHD (2x)  | Bilinear | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR

(*) With AMD, DXVA2 image upscaling under madVR always results in bilinear (is this a bug?).

I post screenshots only for AMD under EVR.

SD --> HD (1.5x)



SD --> FHD (2.25x)



SD --> 4K UHD (4.5x)



HD --> FHD (1.5x) Compare with SD --> HD (1.5x). The same 1.5x, but the image looks dull and blurred.



HD --> 4K UHD (3x)



FHD --> 4K UHD (2x)

emcdade likes this.
renethx is offline  
post #7 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 04:08 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Chroma upscaling

Screenshots in a FHD screen of Color Bar Test.mkv (SD). Cropped and enlarged by x3.

madVR Level 0 (Nearest Neighbor / Nearest Neighbor)



madVR Level 1 (Bilinear / Bilinear): Boring.



DXVA2 AMD



DXVA2 NVIDIA: Edges are blending, looks bizarre.



DXVA2 Intel: No anti-ringing, like BiCubic below. frown.gif



madVR Level 2 (BiCubic75 / Lanczos3 [default])



madVR Level 3 (BiCubic75+AR / Lanczos3+AR): Anti-ringing works effectively.



madVR Mitchell-Netravali+AR / Lanczos3+AR: Mitchell-Netravalli and SoftCubic (next) are alternatives to BiCubic. Lanczos is too sharp for chroma upscaling.



madVR SoftCubic50+AR / Lanczos3+AR: Very soft.



madVR Level 4 (BiCubic75+AR / Jinc3+AR)



madVR Level 5 (Jinc3+AR / Jinc3+AR): Again, the best (marginally smile.gif) chroma upscaling algorithm.

bran82 likes this.
renethx is offline  
post #8 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 23,615
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 929
I am not a fan of the ringing or the ghosting and never have been. I started turning sharpness all the way down on my displaus back when tube and RPTV's were popular for this reason and once I learned about ISF calibration. It actually made a better picture by removing the artificial sharpness and ghosting/ringing.
My projector and my plasma both have a cinema mode that defeats a lot of these. To my eyes- The MADVR level 4 and Level 5 look far superior. If I was upscaling I would tend to prefer something like that smile.gif


ReneTHX- special thanks for extremely high quality posting.


I think that with decreasing prices and increasing popularity of 4k displays and 4k projectors the upscaling image quality issue is going to become a more popular concern for many. The negative to us HTPC enthusiasts is that to accomplish the higher end processing required to do MadVR level 4 or 5, or SVP frame rate interpolation you often need more than just basic affordable hardware and integrated GPU's. My 4770k i7 Haswell can't even run MadVR + SVP on max without a GPU. The postitive is that hardware is always increasing in performance and decreasing in price and thus there is many different levels you can choose on different budgets - including a cheap budget.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post


A lot of people who build HTPC's don't necessarily focus/obsess on the "ULTIMATE picture and sound"; especially since most people end up just watching movies and TV's with either download-friendly compressed MKV video, streaming media/video, cableTV, or re-encoded HDPVR TV recordings, etc.  Even if it was for very high end bluray movie playback, it wouldn't make much sense to even use wasteful video processing like MADVR/SVP for Blu-ray movies anyway on a good 1080p display; at least for common bluray movies.  I've seen so many people who obsess on getting 23.976fps/23.976hz video; not realizing that even if they get that, it's not going to be the original motion picture/sound speed anyway.  They would be much better off in most cases to just lock onto 24.000hz on their display card  and use Reclock to adjust framerate and sound to 24.000fps CINAMA speed.

Whats much more impressive in IMO are HTPC configured for practical, multi-purpose functionality such as Media-Center type software that can do everything under one software and user interface; which isn't really possible with single-purpose, un-customizable STB's; even the higher end ones.


I think your right that many don't focus or obsess on PQ but this might not be the right thread for them then. This is after all AV Science and if there was ever a better collection of enthusiasts that do focus on "Ultimate" picture and sound in a single place I certainly do not know about it. I am all for making HTPC simple and enjoyable for all, but if you venture out of this forum into the video, audio, or Theatre construction forums you'll quickly meet folks that obsess over much smaller details and spend 10 times the money to fix smaller problems and achieve a smaller step up on something with increasingly diminishing returns. I've long used intergrated players like WMC/XBMC with no add ons- I even use VLC sometimes. But recently I have been playing around with the various different settings and I am intrigued with the results. There is thousands here on AVS that have theater equipment that cost more than my car, some more than my house. It's not uncommon to see folks spend tens of thousands on theater equipment. I think in relation to their system stepping up a few CPU levels, and adding a GPU card might be well within the desire budget- Especially if it helps produce the desired result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post

  Even if it was for very high end bluray movie playback, it wouldn't make much sense to even use wasteful video processing like MADVR/SVP for Blu-ray movies anyway on a good 1080p display; at least for common bluray movies.  I've seen so many people who obsess on getting 23.976fps/23.976hz video; not realizing that even if they get that, it's not going to be the original motion picture/sound speed anyway.  They would be much better off in most cases to just lock onto 24.000hz on their display card  and use Reclock to adjust framerate and sound to 24.000fps CINAMA speed.



Interesting idea ^ Do you do this now ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post



Whats much more impressive in IMO are HTPC configured for practical, multi-purpose functionality such as Media-Center type software that can do everything under one software and user interface; which isn't really possible with single-purpose, un-customizable STB's; even the higher end ones.


I agree. I think/hope the new MediaBrowser3 might someday evolve into something more robust and multi functional. There is lots of good front ends (XBMC and MB2 being two most popular) but the integrated players are just average. They look fine on 1080p material but that is mostly a result of the quality of the material being playing. 1080p tends to always look good because compared to what we are accustomed now it's among the best. But if you playing lower resolutions on a 1080p display I think there is a lot more room for improvement and discussion. 4k displays are only going to expose this more.

For me today- Using MPC-HC with MadVR (and sometimes SVP) as an external players seems like the best fit for me. I do often go back to the integrated players and I don't have a huge objection doing so either. But, if you wanted best upscaling, best PQ, and best frame rate you'd be better served with an external player. If MB3 somehow incorporates these easily (I heard rumors of plug ins) for the average user I could see it gaining a stronger hold on the front end software arena. The standard player in MBTheater is rumored to be a customized VLC code with HD audio, which in itself is already interesting. But allowing the plug in add on for more would make it even more attractive. Currently there is a learning curve to setting up an external player and configuring it properly. I agree that ease of use, and user experience must remain paramount. I think this whole area is an evolving entity; first the technology is developed and understood and then the user experience is maximized.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is online now  
post #9 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 08:14 AM
Member
 
Polemides's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


Interesting idea ^ Do you do this now ?

There seem to be a growing number of ReClock-esque utilities for adjusting clock speed. I recently implemented J. River's version -- VideoClock -- at 24 fps and it works flawlessly. 24 fps all the time with about a 0.000013% average deviation, according to MadVR anyway. YMMV, but if you're interested in locking on a steady clock speed it might be worth your looking into.
Polemides is offline  
post #10 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 08:44 AM
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
To me, MB2 with MPC-HC as an external player is the current "Holy Grail". You get the excellent DVR/interface of WMC for live TV, the most customization and best looking interface for stored movies (IMO) in MB2, and the highest quality A/V with MPC-HC with LAV, Madvr Jinc3 and smooth motion.

I think JRiver is excellent as well, and their options for music far surpass MB or anything else I've come across. Madvr is also possible with live TV in Jriver, but a poor guide/DVR and no support for HDHomerun prime was a deal breaker for me. I might buy it anyway just for how good the theater view audio player is.
emcdade is offline  
post #11 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 09:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
StinDaWg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 165
renethx, yesterday you said your AMD 6450 was giving you Lanczos type scaling with DXVA, now you say it's bilinear across the line for 720p->1080p scaling. Which is it?

These pictures prove that there is a pretty big difference between scalers, but I have to question if it is really all that noticeable with HD content? I can count on 1 hand the amount of SD videos I have on my htpc, so most of my scaling is going to be 720p->1080p. I've never noticed a difference between Lanczos/Spline and all the higher levels of scaling. In the end, if you can't see the difference on anything but low res still photos upscaled, is it really that important? IMO, once you get past the terrible nearest neighbor and bilinear scaling, I don't see any difference in scaling HD to full HD, even sitting a foot away from the screen and pausing while switching scalers. There's no ringing on 720p content, and there's no other visual artifacts to make note of that weren't already in the source. I'd love to see if someone can prove this otherwise.
StinDaWg is offline  
post #12 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 09:46 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

renethx, yesterday you said your AMD 6450 was giving you Lanczos type scaling with DXVA, now you say it's bilinear across the line for 720p->1080p scaling. Which is it?

The chart in this thread is correct (as you see in the screenshot). Even for me this is a new finding.
renethx is offline  
post #13 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 09:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CountryBumkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

To me, MB2 with MPC-HC as an external player is the current "Holy Grail". You get the excellent DVR/interface of WMC for live TV, the most customization and best looking interface for stored movies (IMO) in MB2, and the highest quality A/V with MPC-HC with LAV, Madvr Jinc3 and smooth motion.

I think JRiver is excellent as well, and their options for music far surpass MB or anything else I've come across. Madvr is also possible with live TV in Jriver, but a poor guide/DVR and no support for HDHomerun prime was a deal breaker for me. I might buy it anyway just for how good the theater view audio player is.

JRiver supports HDPrime and CetonTV now. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=33741.0

I'm not sure when you last looked at the TV guide/DVR but those have been a main focus since version 180 (they're at version 195 now).
CountryBumkin is online now  
post #14 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
StinDaWg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The chart in this thread is correct (as you see in the screenshot). Even for me this is a new finding.
I'm not following. You said the 6450 does Lanczos but your chart says bilinear.
Quote:
Scaling | AMD | NVIDIA | Intel
SD --> HD (1.5x) | Lanczos | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR
SD --> FHD (2.25x) | Lanczos | Lanczos | Lanczos+AR
SD --> 4K UHD (4.5x) | Lanczos | Lanczos | Lanczos+AR
HD --> FHD (1.5x) | Bilinear | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR
HD --> 4K UHD (3x) | Bilinear | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR
FHD --> 4K UHD (2x) | Bilinear | Bilinear | Lanczos+AR




Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg 
any improvement in dxva scaling/deinterlacing/IVTC/menu fluidity/overall picture quality
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx 
No, not at all. DXVA = algorithms in the driver, that's fixed throughout the entire AMD graphics cards (= Bilinear in chroma/image upscaling).
Quote:
Originally Posted by "StinDaWg 
"Really? I thought the higher end cards 6570 on up had better default scaling abilities? At least that's so according to an XBMC dev-

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=127174&pid=1390867#pid1390867
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

You are right. I did a quick test with EVR. Upscaling algorithm is surely better than biliear, it's like Lanczos. But the algorithm is fixed in the driver and you won't see any improvement by changing GPU, unless you use madVR (that does not use the driver's algorithm).
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Using which AMD card? My 5450 looks like bilinear. I'm assuming you mean 6570/A6-5400k and higher?
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I tested with HD 6450 and HD 7770.
StinDaWg is offline  
post #15 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 10:16 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

These pictures prove that there is a pretty big difference between scalers, but I have to question if it is really all that noticeable with HD content? I can count on 1 hand the amount of SD videos I have on my htpc, so most of my scaling is going to be 720p->1080p. I've never noticed a difference between Lanczos/Spline and all the higher levels of scaling. In the end, if you can't see the difference on anything but low res still photos upscaled, is it really that important? IMO, once you get past the terrible nearest neighbor and bilinear scaling, I don't see any difference in scaling HD to full HD, even sitting a foot away from the screen and pausing while switching scalers. There's no ringing on 720p content, and there's no other visual artifacts to make note of that weren't already in the source. I'd love to see if someone can prove this otherwise.

720p contents are already pretty good and perhaps many people won't notice the difference in upscaling only by the factor x1.5. It's a kind of "Gospel in, gospel out".

Bilinear does not show any ringing, it is a simple linear interpolation.
realife3 likes this.
renethx is offline  
post #16 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 10:20 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The chart in this thread is correct (as you see in the screenshot). Even for me this is a new finding.
I'm not following. You said the 6450 does Lanczos but your chart says bilinear.

The chart is correct. Nothing is too difficult. Look at the screenshot carefully (or download the image and enlarge it further). 720p --> 1080p by bilinear is pretty good in most cases to most people, perhaps.
renethx is offline  
post #17 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 23,615
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

To me, MB2 with MPC-HC as an external player is the current "Holy Grail". You get the excellent DVR/interface of WMC for live TV, the most customization and best looking interface for stored movies (IMO) in MB2, and the highest quality A/V with MPC-HC with LAV, Madvr Jinc3 and smooth motion.

I think JRiver is excellent as well, and their options for music far surpass MB or anything else I've come across. Madvr is also possible with live TV in Jriver, but a poor guide/DVR and no support for HDHomerun prime was a deal breaker for me. I might buy it anyway just for how good the theater view audio player is.

I agree MB2 + MPC-HC is the current holy grail. I am curious what MB3 will bring us.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is online now  
post #18 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 12:07 PM
Member
 
Polemides's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I agree MB2 + MPC-HC is the current holy grail. I am curious what MB3 will bring us.

I'm not sure I've seen anything that qualifies (to me) as the "Holy Grail" ...yet. Each piece of software that I've used is better at certain things (XBMC, J. River, MB2 + WMC, Plex). There's a thread about the Ultimate HTPC experience around here that basically discusses the same thing.

I also am curious as to what MB3 (especially Theater) will bring...and will it bring Live TV? That, and DVR/PVR support, seem to be the sticking points for a lot of this software. WMC + MB2 is a great setup, the only thing I didn't like when I used it was having to drop back into WMC for TV, Netflix, and Amazon. It's not that the transition wasn't smooth, it's just that WMC looks very pedestrian compared to MB2 and its flashy themes, so it wasn't exactly a consistent experience. If WMC were easier to skin (I've made a few with the old MC themer and by hand with XML) then I might completely agree with you. The "Holy Grail" would be if everything were under one roof...and offered a consistent experience. XBMC has a great UI and metadata support, as well as the support of this community, and it supports Live TV now but it requires a backend. J. River, most of us can agree, is definitely the best for audio. Plus the multi-zone support kicks ass. And it's what I use for everything currently...

So the "Holy Grail" IMO would look like a Frankenstein (except better looking) of these things:

XBMC = Meta and plug-in support, overall UI, ease of use
MB = Just like the title, media browsing, video playback, skinning
WMC = Live TV
Plex = Server setup, streaming to mobile devices
J. River = Audio engine, multi-zone support, tagging support

...all rolled into one!

Edit: meant to say "plug-in support" for XBMC
Polemides is offline  
post #19 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 12:42 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Chroma upscaling.

I could add screenshots of madVR downscaling (Catmull-Rom+AR+LL is the best), but this is less important unless you play FHD/4K UHD contents in a HD screen or 4K UHD contents in a FHD screen (or you play contents in a windowed mode), so I omit it for now.
renethx is offline  
post #20 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 23,615
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Chroma upscaling.

I could add screenshots of madVR downscaling (Catmull-Rom+AR+LL is the best), but this is less important unless you play FHD/4K UHD contents in a HD screen or 4K UHD contents in a FHD screen (or you play contents in a windowed mode), so I omit it for now.

I think that is smart. Most people are interested in going to higher resolution, not lower.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is online now  
post #21 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 01:21 PM
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryBumkin View Post

JRiver supports HDPrime and CetonTV now. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=33741.0

I'm not sure when you last looked at the TV guide/DVR but those have been a main focus since version 180 (they're at version 195 now).

Incorrect, HD Homerun and the Prime are two entirely different beasts. The Prime is a cable card device and still is not working in Jriver. Also, the guide and interface are not nearly as slick looking as a themed WMC with channel logos. If Jriver looked as good as my current setup with MB2 and WMC, I'd have already switched.
emcdade is offline  
post #22 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 01:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
StinDaWg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The chart is correct. Nothing is too difficult. Look at the screenshot carefully (or download the image and enlarge it further). 720p --> 1080p by bilinear is pretty good in most cases to most people, perhaps.
You never mentioned before it only applied to SD content. 720p->1080p using bilinear looks terrible. It's the whole reason I started learning about scaling. I didn't understand why 720p video looked so soft, even from a normal viewing distance. Most 720p content can look close if not the same as 1080p using Lanczos/Spline, where in bilinear it's a blurry mess. I don't understand why AMD would limit scaling on 720p when it takes more power to upscale and deinterlace 480i to 1080p. Makes no sense.
StinDaWg is offline  
post #23 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 03:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 48
computationally, as unintuitive as it seems, 720p to 1080p is harder than 480p to 1080p.
nevcairiel explained it in a doom9 thread somewhere.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #24 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 04:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
StinDaWg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

computationally, as unintuitive as it seems, 720p to 1080p is harder than 480p to 1080p.
nevcairiel explained it in a doom9 thread somewhere.
I said 480i, not 480p. Deinterlacing is harder on the GPU than scaling progressive content. If it can scale 480i to 1080p, it should have no problem doing 720p to 1080p. I'm using a patched build of XBMC that turns on high quality scaling with DXVA, and I can use Lanczos/Spline perfectly smooth even on my lowly 5450. The card certainly has enough shader power to do it. If that's the case, AMD is artificially limiting it.
StinDaWg is offline  
post #25 of 830 Old 06-15-2013, 09:11 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
720p24 / 720p60 contents are harder than 480i60 (film / video) to upscale, at least for madVR's implementation of Lanczos algorithm. Deinterlacing being taken into consideration, of course.

renethx is offline  
post #26 of 830 Old 06-16-2013, 10:40 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
2.25x image upscaling comparison

Screenshots of diag SD.mkv in a FHD screen. Enlarged by 8x.

Nearest Neighbor, Bilinear



Lanczos3, Lanczos3+AR: Sharper, coarser



Jinc3, Jinc3+AR: Warmer, finer



DXVA2 AMD, NVIDIA, Intel

- AMD: Lanczos (or a similar one) without anti-ringing.
- NVIDIA: Lanczos (or a similar one) without anti-ringing.
- Intel: Lanczos (or a similar one) with anti-ringing.

renethx is offline  
post #27 of 830 Old 06-16-2013, 10:40 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
2x image upscaling comparison

Screenshots of diag FHD.mkv in a 4K UHD screen. Enlarged by 9x.

Nearest Neighbor, Bilinear



Lanczos3, Lanczos3+AR: Sharper, coarser



Jinc3, Jinc3+AR: Warmer, finer



DXVA2 AMD, NVIDIA, Intel

- AMD: I am not sure what it is exactly. Not looks great.
- NVIDIA: Bilinear.
- Intel: Lanczos (or a similar one) with anti-ringing.

renethx is offline  
post #28 of 830 Old 06-16-2013, 10:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ruiner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Is copy-back fixed? Last I heard or attempted, it wasn't working on APUs.
Ruiner is offline  
post #29 of 830 Old 06-16-2013, 11:06 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
1.5x image upscaling comparison

Screenshots of diag HD.mkv in a FHD screen. Enlarged by 12x.

Nearest Neighbor, Bilinear



Lanczos3, Lanczos3+AR: Sharper, coarser



Jinc3, Jinc3+AR: Warmer, finer



DXVA2 AMD, NVIDIA, Intel

- AMD: not exactly Bilinear, but close.
- NVIDIA: Bilinear.
- Intel: Lanczos (or a similar one) with anti-ringing.

renethx is offline  
post #30 of 830 Old 06-16-2013, 11:10 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,240
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruiner View Post

Is copy-back fixed? Last I heard or attempted, it wasn't working on APUs.

Personally I have never seen a problem with DXVA2 (copy-back) in any platform.
renethx is offline  
Reply Home Theater Computers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off