Theory About Intel's HDMI Quantization Range Setting (Full 0-255) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 203 Old 06-15-2013, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wizziwig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 74
So as we all know, Intel has a setting in their iGPU control panel which allows you to select the quantization range (limited or full) that is most appropriate for you display.




But as we all know, this setting doesn't actually do anything for most people. It seems to always use limited 16-235 range and the control panel option doesn't stick - it reverts back from full to limited on its own.

I find it hard to believe Intel would have such a long-standing bug in their drivers so I did some digging through the HDMI/CEA861 specs. Based on the specs, a device connected through HDMI that is using one of the pre-defined HDTV modes (1080i, 720p, etc.) is required to send limited range. The HDMI device is only allowed to send full-range if the display's EDID includes a "Video Capability Block" that containins the "Quantization Range Selectable" flag. This flag tells the player (iGPU in this case) that your display can handle both limited and full-range input.

My theory is that Intel is very strict about following these standards and therefore ignores the control panel setting when it doesn't find the above flag in the EDID.

Since I don't own any displays that enable the "Quantization Range Selectable" flag, I can't test my theory. I was hoping some users in this forum could help out.

To test if your display has the correct flag, examine your EDID using Entech MonInfo utilty:

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm (download link on the left side of page).

1) Run the Monitor Asset Manager (MonInfo) utility.
2) Select your monitor under the Display IDs section on the left. Should also say [Real-time ...] next to all your connected displays.
3) On the right side you will now get an "Asset Information" display listing information about your monitor.
4) You can save the report to upload here or just copy/paste it.
5) Look for an area like this:

CE video capability data
CE scan behavior......... Supports overscan and underscan
IT scan behavior......... Always underscanned
PT scan behavior......... Supports overscan and underscan
RGB quantization range... Selectable (via AVI YQ)
YCC quantization range... Selectable (via AVI YQ)

If your display has the RGB quantization range listed as "Selectable (via AVI YQ)", please try to toggle the Intel control panel quantization range setting and see if it has any effect. Also close the control panel and check if the setting "sticks" or reverts back to "limited" when you reopen it.

Thanks.
Wizziwig is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 203 Old 06-15-2013, 09:48 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,024
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 342
IIRC "Quantization Range" has been completely removed from the driver's UI since June 2012 (version 8.15.10.2761).
renethx is offline  
post #3 of 203 Old 06-15-2013, 10:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
jim2100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

IIRC "Quantization Range" has been completely removed from the driver's UI since June 2012 (version 8.15.10.2761).

Right. I haven't seen it in a long time. I don't know exactly when it was removed, but that time sounds about right.
jim2100 is offline  
post #4 of 203 Old 06-16-2013, 05:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 21,630
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 676
My Haswell has issues. I am getting 0-255 on my 26" Samsung monitor but only 16-235 on my 23" Samsung monitor on HDMI. It shows up as a digital TV over HDMI too..

I've messed with the settings without any luck so far.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #5 of 203 Old 06-16-2013, 05:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
StinDaWg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 134
I saw a thread in the Intel forums from one of the staff members that said this is fixed in a new beta driver. I know people have been complaining about it for over a year.
StinDaWg is online now  
post #6 of 203 Old 06-16-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wizziwig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

IIRC "Quantization Range" has been completely removed from the driver's UI since June 2012 (version 8.15.10.2761).

Really? I've been on old drivers because they at least allowed full-range HDMI with custom resolutions enabled. Didn't know they removed the option entirely. Probably did it so they don't get a ton of tech support requests from people who couldn't get it working.

Looks like it might be back if you look at this:
http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/2829#10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

My Haswell has issues. I am getting 0-255 on my 26" Samsung monitor but only 16-235 on my 23" Samsung monitor on HDMI. It shows up as a digital TV over HDMI too..

I've messed with the settings without any luck so far.

Can you post your MonInfo EDID log from the HDMI connected monitor?
Wizziwig is online now  
post #7 of 203 Old 06-16-2013, 09:55 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
renethx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,024
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Looks like it might be back if you look at this:
http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/2829#10

This is for "Input Range". Output range is always Limited-range RGB.
renethx is offline  
post #8 of 203 Old 06-16-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wizziwig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

This is for "Input Range". Output range is always Limited-range RGB.

You're right. I missed that part. This is only for video playback and won't effect desktop color output at all.

Hmm.... I wonder if Intel maybe disabled or removed the option when your HDMI display doesn't have the "Quantization Range Selectable" flag. That would be a lot less confusing than having a non-working option like on older drivers.

We still need someone who has this flag available to test various flavors of Intel drivers to see if they even care about this flag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

How do I do that ?

See first post of this thread. I added more detailed instructions for using the MonInfo tool.

FYI,

Looks like the latest Ivy Bridge and Haswell drivers are available here:
http://asder00.blogspot.de/2013/05/intel-hd-graphics-15.31.11.3186-audio-6.16.0.3106.html

Latest Sandy Bridge:
http://asder00.blogspot.it/2013/06/intel-hd-graphics-15.28.17.3190-audio-6.14.0.3097.html
Wizziwig is online now  
post #9 of 203 Old 06-21-2013, 01:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 21,630
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 676
I figured out how to fix my black level issue on my 4770k Intel machine.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #10 of 203 Old 07-22-2013, 05:22 AM
Member
 
Robin Mitra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
seeing is believing
Robin Mitra is offline  
post #11 of 203 Old 07-22-2013, 08:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 21,630
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Mitra View Post

seeing is believing

I added a GPU card wink.gif

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #12 of 203 Old 07-22-2013, 01:33 PM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I added a GPU card wink.gif

Oh, I thought you moved to an AMD APU. smile.gif
cybrsage is offline  
post #13 of 203 Old 07-23-2013, 03:34 AM
Member
 
Robin Mitra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I added a GPU card wink.gif
That's cheating :-)
Robin Mitra is offline  
post #14 of 203 Old 07-23-2013, 05:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 21,630
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Oh, I thought you moved to an AMD APU. smile.gif

I just reused my old AMD Radeon XFX 6870 X2 video card.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #15 of 203 Old 07-24-2013, 02:28 AM
Senior Member
 
fraggermcg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just about to start setting up my new i3 w/ intel HD4000 as I've finally had enough with all the problems on my old AMD 240e and ATI5670 HTPC I built a few years ago.

This limited vs full range thing has always confused me since the day I first built an HTPC back in 2005 or 6! Can someone tell me briefly please what I should be setting and calibrating to get it all to work? From this thread and others I know the intels will only do limited range so I'll need to recalibrate.

Should I change my Denon amp from full to limited as well? How do I calibrate using eg DVE's HD Basics blu ray that I bought a few years back, as I understand it's all set up on the assumption you can see the BTB/WTW patterns which if I understand correctly I won't with the intel limited range RGB?

Any other help or pointers much appreciated!
fraggermcg is offline  
post #16 of 203 Old 07-24-2013, 03:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
adam1991's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

My theory is that Intel is very strict about following these standards

actually, it sounds as if Intel is simply following the standard. There's no degree of following a standard; either one follows the standard, or one doesn't. There is no "strict" or "lax".

With respect to HDMI, what would you have Intel do? Not follow the standard?
adam1991 is offline  
post #17 of 203 Old 07-24-2013, 04:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nevcairiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post

With respect to HDMI, what would you have Intel do? Not follow the standard?

Yes, please, so we could actually use it properly. smile.gif

Contrary to your believe, there is such a thing as "strict" standard following, and there is following the standard, but letting the user override, because there certainly are plenty users that would want/need to do this, and the other vendors allow this.
Of course you can argue that Intel did nothing wrong and its just following the standard, but at the end of the day, us people that need/want full range over HDMI will still buy another GPU to handle this (but Intel wouldn't care, since you most likely own their CPU with iGPU already anyway)
Nevcairiel is offline  
post #18 of 203 Old 07-24-2013, 05:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 1,014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I'm in 100% agreement. Standards are intended as good defaults but rigid enforcement is simply a hindrance. That applies to just about any technical standard.

Copyright is not property, it is merely a temporary loan from the public domain.
JerryW is online now  
post #19 of 203 Old 07-26-2013, 05:25 AM
Member
 
Robin Mitra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does edid override help? I mean the old document from MS about .inf files, is that still valid?
Robin Mitra is offline  
post #20 of 203 Old 08-08-2013, 03:27 AM
Newbie
 
Robertos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I saw a thread in the Intel forums from one of the staff members that said this is fixed in a new beta driver. I know people have been complaining about it for over a year.

could you post a link to that thread? it was 2 month ago maybe something has changed...
Robertos is offline  
post #21 of 203 Old 08-30-2013, 08:18 AM
Member
 
Robin Mitra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It seems, setting the appropriate bit in the edid does work:
http://communities.intel.com/message/204275#204275
Robin Mitra is offline  
post #22 of 203 Old 08-30-2013, 04:24 PM
Newbie
 
silooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yes I found the info for the EDID eeprom reprograming here:

https://sites.google.com/site/chrisbecke/home/edid-reprograming
I used moninfo to get the addres of the quantization bit and to correct the checksum.

Now i have full range if I connect my notebook directly to the TV, but conecting through my denon receiver i get limited range.

The Denon receiver dosn't respect the quantization bit from the TV.
silooo is offline  
post #23 of 203 Old 09-06-2013, 01:52 AM
Newbie
 
Robertos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Is this possible to do EDID OVERRIDE to change Quantization Range?
Robertos is offline  
post #24 of 203 Old 09-06-2013, 08:42 AM
Member
 
Robin Mitra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This guy claims to have got it going..
http://communities.intel.com/message/205031#205031

.. although a few posts above, he said it didn't work for the TV
Maybe he can enlighten us what exactly he did, and what works and what not (e.g. works for the avr, but not for the TV...)

Too bad I can't try myself right now, afk for a few weeks...
Robin Mitra is offline  
post #25 of 203 Old 09-06-2013, 10:38 PM
Newbie
 
silooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
little guide:
0) with the projector/monitor connected
1) Download, install and excute http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm
2) Make sure you have selectec display real time
3) Got to file, create inf. save as mon.inf
4) open mon.inf with notepad.
5) In the section HKR, EDID_OVERRIDE,"1", bla bla, find 0xE2, 0x00, 0x0F, change to 0xE2, 0x00, 0xCF, and save
6) Then go to Device Manager, Display and you should have 2 monitors, identify your projector, (properties, details, hardware id).
7) Then manually update the projector driver with the .inf (update driver, search driver in equipment, choose from a list, have disk, choose install aniway in the not signed driver prompt)
8) if everithing goes ok, reboot.
9) in intel driver properties change to full range

I also enabled in intel driver.
SDVOHDMI_SupportCEA861D,%REG_DWORD%, 1 ;To enable support for 861D spec, 1-Support IT Content and RGB Quantization, 0- No 861D support. Default to 0.
silooo is offline  
post #26 of 203 Old 09-07-2013, 02:49 AM
Newbie
 
Robertos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by silooo View Post

little guide:
0) with the projector/monitor connected
1) Download, install and excute http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm
2) Make sure you have selectec display real time
3) Got to file, create inf. save as mon.inf
4) open mon.inf with notepad.
5) In the section HKR, EDID_OVERRIDE,"1", bla bla, find 0xE2, 0x00, 0x0F, change to 0xE2, 0x00, 0xCF, and save
6) Then go to Device Manager, Display and you should have 2 monitors, identify your projector, (properties, details, hardware id).
7) Then manually update the projector driver with the .inf (update driver, search driver in equipment, choose from a list, have disk, choose install aniway in the not signed driver prompt)
8) if everithing goes ok, reboot.
9) in intel driver properties change to full range

I also enabled in intel driver.
SDVOHDMI_SupportCEA861D,%REG_DWORD%, 1 ;To enable support for 861D spec, 1-Support IT Content and RGB Quantization, 0- No 861D support. Default to 0.

thanks for guide, I have created inf file for my panasonic gt30, but in HKR, EDID_OVERRIDE,"1" section don't have these values 0xE2, 0x00, 0x0F
Robertos is offline  
post #27 of 203 Old 09-07-2013, 06:13 AM
Newbie
 
silooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
please post it here
silooo is offline  
post #28 of 203 Old 09-07-2013, 06:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,006
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 43
It does annoy me that consumer gear almost always "just works" - but those of using HTPCs always end up in a world of hurt when it comes to 16-235 vs 0-255 video.

16-235 is a standard we've had, for very good reason, for over 30 years. Yet supporting it, and coping with it in 0-255 levelspace land, still seems to be a pain. This ISN'T rocket science, it's just following industry standards... It always appears as if 16-235 content support and/or output is horribly kludged.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #29 of 203 Old 09-07-2013, 08:14 AM
Newbie
 
Robertos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by silooo View Post

please post it here

I have sent you PM

thanks in advance
Robertos is offline  
post #30 of 203 Old 09-09-2013, 07:17 AM
Newbie
 
silooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Robertos,

;Extension bloc #1, e.g., CEA-EXT, DID-EXT, etc.
HKR,EDID_OVERRIDE,"1",0x01,0x02,0x03,0x39,0x72,0x50,0x9F,0x90,0x14,0x05,0x20,0x13,0x04,0x12,0x03,0x11,0x02,0x16,0x07,0x15,0x06,0x01,0x23,0x09,0x07,0x01,0x78,0x03,0x0C,0x00,0x10,0x00,0xB8,0x26,0x2F,0xC0,0x0A,0x81,0x49,0xFF,0xFC,0x06,0x16,0x08,0x00,0x18,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0xE3,0x05,0x1F,0x01,0xE2,0x00,0xFF,0x01,0x1D,0x80,0xD0,0x72,0x1C,0x16,0x20,0x10,0x2C,0x25,0x80,0xBA,0x88,0x21,0x00,0x00,0x9E,0x01,0x1D,0x80,0x18,0x71,0x1C,0x16,0x20,0x58,0x2C,0x25,0x00,0xBA,0x88,0x21,0x00,0x00,0x9E,0x01,0x1D,0x00,0xBC,0x52,0xD0,0x1E,0x20,0xB8,0x28,0x55,0x40,0xBA,0x88,0x21,0x00,0x00,0x1E,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x2D
silooo is offline  
Reply Home Theater Computers

Tags
Intel Core I5 4670k 3 4ghz Lga 1150 Quad Core Desktop Processor , Intel , Intel Core I5 3570 3 4 Ghz Processor , Intel Pentium G2020 2 9ghz Lga 1155 Dual Core Desktop Processor , Intel Pentium G3220 3 0ghz Lga 1150 Dual Core Desktop Processor , Intel Core I7 4770k 3 5ghz Lga 1150 Quad Core Desktop Processor , Intel Core I3 4130 3 4 3 Fclga 1150 Processor Bx80646i34130
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off