Astonishingly the Echo has virtually disappered from forum discussion. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

No, that is not what I mean by impasse.

Ah, no acceptance. Accepting something that is not true simply because some people repeatedly say it is not true is silly.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shortcut3d View Post

Lets try to tie in Windows 8 WMC changes to the thread. Yes, changes were made to WMC because of version and it also changed the behavior of extenders. The Echo is not compatible with Windows 8 WMC at the current firmware. There are no updates of this post from Ceton on the status of the firmware. A March blog post by Ceton indicated a forthcoming firmware will enable support for Windows 8 WMC.

smile.gif Good tie in. The development Microsoft did on WMC caused vendors to have to make changes to their products to allow them to continue to work. I dislike that OS makers do this, but all of them do it so it is just something I have learned to accept.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Sure we can I installed Windows 8.1 and WMC... and WMC is still stuck in the mud.

Win 8.1 is not a new OS, it is an alteration of the current one. You can tell this by the use of the standard major and minor revision numbering system they are use. 8 is the version and .1 is a change to the version. Windows 3.11 was not a new OS, but a change to Windows 3 as an example. Media Browser 2.53 was not a new Media Browser, but an update to Media Browser 2. Media Browser 3 is a new Media Browser.

All that said, you would probably have better luck with WMC if you did not put your PC in mud. Mud is conductive and therefor can easily damage your PC.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

No, that is not what I mean by impasse.

Ah, no acceptance. Accepting something that is not true simply because some people repeatedly say it is not true is silly.

Just like certain political factions in the country today..

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Old 06-28-2013, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

By "impasse", if you mean "refuse to accept the truth as shown by cybrsage" and by "all" you mean "a small group of MS Haters" then I agree with you. smile.gif

I was simply giving the reason the other thread was closed, since the question was asked. Then the "MS kicked my puppy so I forever hate them" members started to show up and it again went downhill. It does have a purpose, which is to stop the spread of lies, but you are correct in that it has no purpose in this thread (other than to answer the question the OP asked, as I previously stated).

Speculating about WMC's future is far from hating on MS. Quite the opposite, actually. There seems to be a crowd here very happy with the product Microsoft created, and their reaction is disappointment that meaningful development appears to have stopped.

Assuming that true, that doesn't mean WMC is dead. MS is still selling it, and there's no reason to think guide data will stop anytime soon. Also, since MS is still selling WMC, I think you can expect that they would try to fix any problem that arises that substantially breaks WMC (though, their handling of third-party extenders in Win8 should cause some concern there).

I have a hard time believing that MS has any significant plans for WMC. Rumors that were practically confirmed by Ceton say that the extender program is dead, which I think is corroborated by the fact that MS was willing to break compatibility with third-party extenders by not letting Win8 negotiate down to an older RDP protocol. There's every reason to think MS is trying to play up the role of the Xbox one for video playback, but there's also reason to think WMC is far from the front of their minds. They played up the Xbox's media features during the launch, but chose to go a completely different direction than WMC. MS's work to stream content directly to the Xbox further corroborates that. And, of course, let's not forget about the former President of the Windows Division pointing out the low usage figures of WMC. There was a tone there, and it didn't bode well for WMC's future.

Yes, MS changed the version numbers, and something changed with the way RDP works in Win8 in a way that impacts WMC, but as far as I know nothing meaningful within WMC has changed. The RDP change seems to be an OS change, not a WMC change. The version number could easily just be from a simple revision to allow WMC to be sold separately from Win8. Is a change like that continued development? Perhaps technically, but not meaningfully.

I suppose a legitimate argument is that it doesn't really matter if there's continued development of WMC. It works now, and it will probably continue to work in the way that it does today. Still, I think it is completely rational to consider a product's likely future when making purchasing decisions- particularly those requiring fairly significant investments (putting together a whole-home DVR around WMC isn't particularly cheap).
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Why is is so hard for people to accept when they don't know something - or that information does not exist ? There is no need to make stuff up- just learn to be ok with not knowing something.

People speculate all the time. It's one thing to speculate with little-to-no information (and plenty of that goes on around here). But I think there are plenty of signs in this case to make some educated guesses.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Ah, no acceptance. Accepting something that is not true simply because some people repeatedly say it is not true is silly.
Correct.

Getting back on the original topic though, what kinds of issues do you have with your Echo, Cybrsage, and what bug fixes would you like to see?

The only bugs that affect me at the moment are occasional double remote commands and the zoom bug. It's been smooth sailing for live and recorded TV, otherwise.

The main things I'd like to see Android bring are Netflix and support for more video codecs, and eventually Win 8.x support.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Correct.

Getting back on the original topic though, what kinds of issues do you have with your Echo, Cybrsage, and what bug fixes would you like to see?

The only bugs that affect me at the moment are occasional double remote commands and the zoom bug. It's been smooth sailing for live and recorded TV, otherwise.

The main things I'd like to see Android bring are Netflix and support for more video codecs, and eventually Win 8.x support.

Not speaking for cybrsage, but stability would be nice. Fixing deinterlacing and artifacts would also be a start. In general, the video playback is not smooth either. How about proper H.264 support while they're updating the firmware. That's in addition to your two bugs.
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:27 PM
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Reggie14, Without repeating your whole post, who's fault is it that WMC has such low usage numbers? I saw it in in Win7 in 2010 and thought, "Hmm" and carried on thinking it was just an adaptation of WMP. I wasn't in tune with the concept of HTPC's until I stumbled upon this site only in 2011 while upgrading my system for better playback of my growing Blu-ray collection that was fostered by previously being very active at Blu-ray.com back as early as 2007 or 2008 when I made the switch from DVD to Blu-ray. I think if Microsoft had done a better job of marketing the Media Center PC concept it would have taken off, but could be wrong..

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Old 06-28-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Reggie14, Without repeating your whole post, who's fault is it that WMC has such low usage numbers.

I'm not reggie but I'll take a whack.

It's part Microsoft's fault, and part nobody's.

The "nobody's fault" part is easy. The HTPC is just a fundamentally flawed concept from a "product" standpoint.

What do I mean by that? People don't want PCs connected to their TVs, they don't want to fiddle, they don't want to try and figure out what the difference between a HD Homerun and an HD Homerun Prime is, they don't care about QAM vs ATSC. When it comes to TV and movies, people just want to plug in a box (or have the service provider plug it in), pick up a remote and watch TV or a movie. You just can't do that with an HTPC, either you roll your own, and have to deal with the support issues (why'd my tuner disappear) yourself, or in order to cover the supports costs commercially you have to sell an HTPC at a comparatively enormous price (eg Niveus Media).

When it comes to work, people don't want to strain to read what's on an HDTV from across the room or fiddle with a mouse on your lap or waving your hands in the air (Gyration) that's just not productive. So when you go back to the beginning, with Media Center Edition, nobody was going to buy one of those just for MCE and put it in their living room, and likewise those that did buy it were going to have it in the office, at their desk with a PC monitor where MCE is basically worthless.

There's also the fact that people really just don't care to look for more than just basic functionality. Look at Tivo, it was a way better DVR than anything you could get from a service provider but it never really caught on, the company's been struggling since the beginning. If people can't be conviced to buy into a dedicated, simple, inexpensive box, they're not going to bet a much more expensive, much fiddlier PC to do the same thing.

The Microsoft side of things is a bit more complicated. I really don't think marketing could have helped them, or at least that was the least of WMC's problems. I've really got to go back to the beginning to explain my thoughts on WMC, back to Windows XP Media Center Edition.

I remember back in 2002 I think it was, watching Microsoft's CES Keynote when they unveiled Windows XP Media Center Edition. By that time I'd been using my PC as my DVR for a while, but I'd been using really basic software for my Hauppauge card. Watching that keynote I was amazed and excited and I couldn't wait to get my hands on it. That brings us to:

Fumble 1:
Windows XP Media Center Edition was only available on a prebuilt PC. I'm an enthusiast, I'm not going to buy a crappy HP or Dell at like $2k just to get Media Center Edition. I really don't know what MS's thought process was, but MCE was something that was really only going to appeal to enthusiasts, especially at first, and without letting those enthusiasts get a hold of it directly, they definitely stunted it's growth.

Fumble 2:
Eventually MCE was released into the wild via "OEM" copies that anyone could buy, but there was another problem. MS didn't allow MCE machines to communicate. MCE was powerful multi-tuner DVR, that's nice for one room, but it really doesn't shine until you can use a central DVR in multiple rooms. The lack of a software client, inter-MCE communication further hurt WMC's adoption.

The example I have is myself, were it not for these two early issues, I would almost certainly be running WMC right now, I'd probably have a few Echo's (ha, got the echo into the discussion wink.gif), and I'd be a WMC fan. But due to these two early MS decisions, I, and a lot of other folks went with other solutions, SageTV in my case.

Fumble 3:
Extenders, these should have been the best thing ever to hit WMC. Extenders can be awesome, they can give you all the great functionality of a PC based media system, without any of the headaches. But Microsoft decided (in true Apple fashion) that it knows better than it's customers, and Extenders would only support those things MS deemed worthy of supporting, which paradoxically is a subset of what even Windows Media Center will handle (DVD rips anyone?).

Fumble 4:
Windows Home Server. Much like Fumble 1, I remember hearing about WHS early on before release (may well have been another CES Keynote reveal). Probably my first thought was WHS + WMC + Extenders = whole home media nirvana. I mean how perfect would that be, you could go buy a box, from a company with support (or ideally for enthusiasts buy a copy of the OS and put it on our own hardware), plug it into your home network and your cable line, stick a few little boxes at each TV, and you're off to the races with a whole-home DVR. Personally I think this is the biggest fumble of all. WMC + WHS + Extenders could have solved the "Nobody wants a PC connected to their TV" problem, it would have made the WMC market immensely larger, it would have made WHS much more attractive as well.

I think WMC's fate may have been sealed at that point, they might have been able to save it by making extenders good, or allowing PC clients, but I think without WMC running in a server in a closet I think you've lost the mass market before you started. Marketing might have helped a bit along the way, but I think it really comes down to two fundamentals, the "mass market" just doesn't care and there's nothing anyone can do to change their minds, and Microsoft just isn't in tune with the people who do care, the enthusiasts who are stymied by the choices MS made on where to take the product.
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:20 PM
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Nice write up! It seems if MS would have unleased it to enthusiasts early on the Media Center PC model you describe would have come to fruition because all the bugs would have been worked out so that pre-built set ups could be sold but there's always that nasty DRM thing for both CableTV and ripping your own media to HDD that being a legit company in the U.S. MS needed to consider. It is not like they could out right support doing that on a WHS/MMC/WME-type infrastructure.

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Old 06-28-2013, 04:28 PM
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Nice write up! It seems if MS would have unleased it to enthusiasts early on the Media Center PC model you describe would have come to fruition because all the bugs would have been worked out so that pre-built set ups could be sold but there's always that nasty DRM thing for both CableTV and ripping your own media to HDD that being a legit company in the U.S. MS needed to consider. It is not like they could out right support doing that on a WHS/MMC/WME-type infrastructure.

You don't need to support ripping, plenty of companies/products have shown that. You just need to support playback and people who are interested figure out the rest. As for bugs, I don't think WMC bugginess is a problem, lots of people run WMC without issues. The key to that is to isolate WMC/the system from internet downloads and rogue users. Running WMC's recording engine and library on WHS would have done that.

MS just seems to have chosen the worst possible combination of locked down and interested audience. They aimed WMC at a group that doesn't exist, it just so happens to be well liked by people who they never even thought of, or noticed, or cared about.

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Old 06-28-2013, 05:59 PM
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This thread once again shows why I posted my WMC thread in the HDTV Recording forum. I forget at times and actually post here... smile.gif

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Old 06-28-2013, 08:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

Speculating about WMC's future is far from hating on MS. Quite the opposite, actually. There seems to be a crowd here very happy with the product Microsoft created, and their reaction is disappointment that meaningful development appears to have stopped.

Assuming that true, that doesn't mean WMC is dead. MS is still selling it, and there's no reason to think guide data will stop anytime soon. Also, since MS is still selling WMC, I think you can expect that they would try to fix any problem that arises that substantially breaks WMC (though, their handling of third-party extenders in Win8 should cause some concern there)

I have a hard time believing that MS has any significant plans for WMC. Rumors that were practically confirmed by Ceton say that the extender program is dead, which I think is corroborated by the fact that MS was willing to break compatibility with third-party extenders by not letting Win8 negotiate down to an older RDP protocol. There's every reason to think MS is trying to play up the role of the Xbox one for video playback, but there's also reason to think WMC is far from the front of their minds. They played up the Xbox's media features during the launch, but chose to go a completely different direction than WMC. MS's work to stream content directly to the Xbox further corroborates that. And, of course, let's not forget about the former President of the Windows Division pointing out the low usage figures of WMC. There was a tone there, and it didn't bode well for WMC's future.

Yes, MS changed the version numbers, and something changed with the way RDP works in Win8 in a way that impacts WMC, but as far as I know nothing meaningful within WMC has changed. The RDP change seems to be an OS change, not a WMC change. The version number could easily just be from a simple revision to allow WMC to be sold separately from Win8. Is a change like that continued development? Perhaps technically, but not meaningfully.

I suppose a legitimate argument is that it doesn't really matter if there's continued development of WMC. It works now, and it will probably continue to work in the way that it does today. Still, I think it is completely rational to consider a product's likely future when making purchasing decisions- particularly those requiring fairly significant investments (putting together a whole-home DVR around WMC isn't particularly cheap).
People speculate all the time. It's one thing to speculate with little-to-no information (and plenty of that goes on around here). But I think there are plenty of signs in this case to make some educated guesses.

The haters have certainly toned down their rhetoric. They previously tossed about the word "abandoned" and were quickly shown that was completely not true. It is silly to say a product currently on sale and being supported is abandoned. After a lot of gnashing of teeth they shifted to saying there has been no development of WMC. That was also quickly shown to not be true, as seen by the version numbers. Then they decided to try and use the classic "moving of the goalpost" to say they were never wrong when the opposite is, in fact, true.

Until the next OS comes out we cannot say if MS did any development or not. The statement made was not about significant development, but simply development. The two are very different things. To use cars as an example, there had not been any significant development in cars for decades, but that does not suddenly mean cars were no longer sold or supported. Tesla Motors has done some significant development and came up with a very different kind of car (on the inside at least). But still, even with that, the old style cars are still around, still being made, still being bought, still being supported, and people like them...they did not suddenly vanish. If enough people decide they only want electric cars, the auto makers will then stop selling the non-electric ones. Basic supply and demand stuff.

WMC is like the older style cars. People like it, it works well. It does not really need any significant development in order to still be just as good as it has been for the last several years. Just like the older style cars, it has some issues that will not go away without significant development. Eventually someone will do just that and come out with a product that is superior. People will continue to buy and use WMC even when something better is around at least until MS decides there are not enough of us around buying it and using it to justify the expense of maintaining it. Free guide data is only free for the users.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Correct.

It appears you agree that is it silly to say there has been no development and that you also agree it is silly to say Microsoft will do no development for an OS that we have no knowledge about yet. What you appear to disagree on is that people who spread lies about MS hate them. You are probably correct, they most likely have other issues that cause them to do it and MS is simply an easy target. Much like the rich are an easy target for the mindless OWS drones.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:34 PM
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Reggie14, Without repeating your whole post, who's fault is it that WMC has such low usage numbers? [snip] I think if Microsoft had done a better job of marketing the Media Center PC concept it would have taken off, but could be wrong..

Perhaps, but that's largely besides the point. We are where we are. The point I was trying to make was that Microsoft appears to have very little interest in a product with such a small user base.

Could Microsoft have done better? Absolutely. Stanger's post went through their misteps quite well, from an enthusiast's perspective. Still, it's hard to imagine WMC being an amazing success. They could have been a bigger success within the niche market that is HTPC users. But, to really be a money maker for MS they needed WMC devices to be appliances you'd get from your cable company, or at least Best Buy. Microsoft was/is big enough I think they could have done that if they really wanted to. But, they would have needed to make a stronger case for why they were better than regular DVRs- mostly referring to whole-home DVR and streaming.

At this point it is too late. DVR is a bridging technology between regular broadcast TV and full, IP-based on-demand TV. MS is never going to make a ton of money on WMC when DVRs already have one foot in the grave (ok, maybe half a foot). I strongly suspect they're going to cut their losses and focus on the next big thing.
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Until the next OS comes out we cannot say if MS did any development or not. The statement made was not about significant development, but simply development. The two are very different things.

You're being awfully pedantic, aren't you? I mean, strictly speaking I suppose you're right, but I'd say the difference between no development and meaningful development is much less than the difference between minor changes and meaningful ones, right?
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WMC is like the older style cars. People like it, it works well. It does not really need any significant development in order to still be just as good as it has been for the last several years.

I disagree with your car analogy for a number of reasons, but mostly because I don't think it is comparable.

It would be like stepping back to 2003 and saying "people really like thin flip phones like the RAZR, we don't need to see significant developments there." A fair amount has changed since WMC was originally released, yet it's development has largely been stagnant. Now I agree it can continue to live on in its current form for several more years, but in the meantime the world is changing around WMC and it's simply being left behind.

"Abandonware" is perhaps an overly dramatic term in this case, but not entirely unjustified. Anyone buying into WMC at this point should certainly expect MS to do next to nothing to improve or extend WMC at this point.

Anyways, you seem to be sending mixed signals in your posts. At times you're really suggesting that you think Microsoft is actively and significantly developing WMC. Do you really think that's true? Or do you think, like you implied in this reply, that Microsoft will to little-to-nothing with WMC other than continuing to provide guide data? I read your posts on this subject in a very similar manner as I read the posts on the SageTV forums disputing the death of SageTV. OK, I get the argument, I suppose, but I don't understand the tone that seems to be behind it. Why the defensiveness? The lady doth protest too much, methinks
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:43 PM
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It appears you agree that is it silly to say there has been no development
Objection your Honor, leading the witness.
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and that you also agree it is silly to say Microsoft will do no development for an OS that we have no knowledge about yet.
Objection! Let the defendant speak for himself.
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What you appear to disagree on is that people who spread lies about MS hate them. You are probably correct, they most likely have other issues that cause them to do it and MS is simply an easy target. Much like the rich are an easy target for the mindless OWS drones.
I don't know what OWS is. I cannot speculate on their motivations. You appear to be the only one concerned with this imaginary legion of lie spreading MS haters. MS can probably defend themselves against defamation.

Suffice to say, everything you have and probably will post on this subject I do not agree with. Why not just post links to your old posts in the locked thread. It will save you a lot of typing since you seem to be intent on rehashing all of it. I stand by everything I posted in the locked thread as well. For one so obsessed with absolute truth and every nuance of the meaning of one particular word, you sure are getting creative interpreting my new word: impasse.

Now that I have answered your indirect questions, would you answer the one I posed earlier on the subject of the Echo, namely what issues you are having with yours? Perhaps you can share your experience. How well does it work with the totally new and improved WMC found in Win 8 and 8.1 compared to the well supported, newly updated WMC in Win 7. What great new features of WMC (any version) make Echo work so well as an extender?
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

The haters have certainly toned down their rhetoric. They previously tossed about the word "abandoned" and were quickly shown that was completely not true. It is silly to say a product currently on sale and being supported is abandoned. After a lot of gnashing of teeth they shifted to saying there has been no development of WMC. That was also quickly shown to not be true, as seen by the version numbers. Then they decided to try and use the classic "moving of the goalpost" to say they were never wrong when the opposite is, in fact, true..

Um you can stop with the trolling now, you're the reason why all this got started in the first place and why the old thread got locked, because you seem to want to antagonize anyone that doesn't accept your opinion. No one is a 'hater' here just because they disagree with you, and we don't call you a WMC fanboy because you believe that it still has a future.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Here go again...boring...if you don't not want to use Windows 8 or Windows at all, no problem
And if you are not using a touch pc just exactly why would you want to. XP has lived on much loved all these years I suspect Win 7 will be around much, much longer as it will be the OS large corporations migrate to. Win 8 and its follow ups are way over the horizon. Everyone worries about WMC abandonment. Well unless MC pulls WMC out Win 7 it will be a decade before WMC is abandoned. The entire content delivery model will be totally different by then and it will be more a relevancy question than an abandonment question.

Just another blank signature.
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

And if you are not using a touch pc just exactly why would you want to.

I don't have touch screens in many of my PCs but I prefer running Windows 8. Unlike many others, I love the new UI and don't miss the start menu at all (hint, the Metro home screen is your start menu and you can start typing any program you want to launch). There are many OS improvements that I liked over Win7. The only thing prevented me from upgrade my main recording PC to Win8 is Echo. I have 3 Xbox 360 extenders and one Echo. I'd like to see all of them get supported in Win8 before I upgrade that PC. All my other PCs are running Win8.
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:33 AM
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I slap the hand that wants to touch my monitor! Touch screen on a PC is out of the question for me.

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Old 06-29-2013, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

The haters have certainly toned down their rhetoric. They previously tossed about the word "abandoned" and were quickly shown that was completely not true. It is silly to say a product currently on sale and being supported is abandoned. After a lot of gnashing of teeth they shifted to saying there has been no development of WMC. That was also quickly shown to not be true, as seen by the version numbers. Then they decided to try and use the classic "moving of the goalpost" to say they were never wrong when the opposite is, in fact, true.
What is wrong with you? Seriously. You take one word, blow it completely out of proportion and start an inquisition in two threads about a product you don't even own and have never used. You've made your point. Let it go. Nobody is interested in this debate.
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:45 AM
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:21 AM
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Another thread gets locked...You guys just can't leave well enough alone.
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