Now that 4K TVs are coming, will there be another disk format? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Something bigger and better than blu ray?

Im asking because im putting together a htpc end of this year or next, and was wondering if i should hold off on the drive i'll be buying.

If anyone know what it is, let me know.
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post #2 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxn View Post

Something bigger and better than blu ray?

Everything I've seen points to the initial availability of 4K content being digital (online) distribution. Sony looks to be first out of the gate with their system which is shipping in July I think. Notably it will only (AFAIK) work with their player and the PS4. Red has Odemax for their Redray player as well, and there are rumblings of 4k from Netflix at some point.

There's talk of a 4K update to Blu-ray but nobody really knows what that will mean. It will probably involve H.265, and I've seen theories floated that it could use dual layer higher capacity discs (33GB/layer) or possibly more layers. Either of which may or may not work with current readers.
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Im asking because im putting together a htpc end of this year or next, and was wondering if i should hold off on the drive i'll be buying.

Disk readers are so cheap, just get one now. In the near term I don't see any 4k content coming to the PC, longer term, you'll just buy a drive that's compatible, and you're only out a few bucks for the cost of a BD drive.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #3 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 04:07 PM
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All the talk of 4k content being distributed online makes me wonder if we are going to run into a massive bottleneck in the near future. Pretty much every ISP now has caps on how much you can download and they are relatively small. You can easily go over most with less than 10 full sized blu-ray downloads. That could limit 4k catching on as the next big thing.
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post #4 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 04:17 PM
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They'll charge $25 for the content and $10 to download it. The ISP's will be in heaven.

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post #5 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 05:41 PM
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Probably not another disc format but definitely another HDMI standard. You will be a sucker to buy any 4k device that will soon be outdated.

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post #6 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 07:45 PM
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I would not hold off any purchase because of the possibility on 4K being affordable or practical soon enough to change your plans this year. The 80 inch screens are still beyond the reach of most consumers, most of whom buy smaller than 50 inch screens now. There is not enough streaming bandwdith in most of the county, maybe all of the country for streaming 4K. Even if Sony releases some content in 4K and you buy every release I doubt the will be a dozen releases in a year.4K will be the bleeding edge of technology. It may never materialize.
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post #7 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 08:03 PM
 
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Unless they can create a codec that reduces the size of the data by a very significant margin, expect a new disc format. Just don't expect to see it for a long time, so no need to hold off on your purchase.
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Although there's no set standard for 4K video content yet, we've already got some idea as to how big 4K video files will be. During a recent hands-on with the Sony VW1000ES upcoming 4k projector, we managed to find out that an uncompressed 4k version of the trailer for The Amazing Spiderman takes up a whopping 500GB of hard disk space.

At this size, it would be impossible to fit a full-length 4K film onto a terabyte hard disk, let alone a 50GB Blu-ray. However, like Blu-ray video, 4K content will be compressed in order to fit onto more convenient optical media, rather than carried around on hard disks. We just don't know what that medium will be.

With a traditional Blu-ray providing 50GB, and BDXL discs capable of holding up to 120GB of data, the compression would have to be significant in order to squeeze in three hours of 4K content. BDXL also requires a compatible player that can read the higher density discs, so existing equipment will need to be upgraded. Whether compression of this magnitude can be achieved without introducing artefacts also remains to be seen, but there's plenty of time for the standard to be finalized - with no official way of transferring 4K content from storage to screen, it could be some time before we see 4K films on the shelves in HMV.
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-entertainment/1290532/how-much-hard-disk-space-you-will-need-for-4k-video-files
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post #8 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 10:42 PM
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Something is wrong with those numbers - how do they get 500GB for just one trailer?

3840x2160 pixels x 3 bytes / pixel * 24 fps * 60 seconds = ~36GB/minute.

So 500GB means nearly 14 minutes, say 12 minutes with a generous allotment for audio.

That is one hell of a long trailer.

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post #9 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 11:04 PM
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500gb for a trailer doesn't seem right... You would need a drive that can read at 2844 megabytes per second for a 3 min trailer.

I guess you could put a bunch of solid state drives in raid0.
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post #10 of 52 Old 06-28-2013, 11:51 PM
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Read the text carefully, it says "uncompressed 4k version". Thats a whole other dimension than your usual compressed video files.
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post #11 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 12:14 AM
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If you were buying a new drive now i would get this http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Computer/Computer+Drives/BDR-2208 It can burn & playback 100GB & 128GB blu ray disc's cool.gif
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post #12 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all,

Ill get a drive then.

Reason i didnt want to buy a drive yet is because i need a slim slot loading drive, and those are more expensive and harder to come by.
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post #13 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmoderndesign View Post

The 80 inch screens are still beyond the reach of most consumers, most of whom buy smaller than 50 inch screens now.

Not if you get a projector, now granted affordable 4k projectors are a ways out but you can get a pretty nice 1080p projector for around ~$1k these days.
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There is not enough streaming bandwdith in most of the county, maybe all of the country for streaming 4K.

We're not talking streaming (yet), just IP distribution, you'll download the movies and watch them from a local copy. That makes bandwidth less of an issue (technically it makes it a non-issue, but in practice you need decent speeds if you ever want your download to complete).
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Even if Sony releases some content in 4K and you buy every release I doubt the will be a dozen releases in a year.4K will be the bleeding edge of technology. It may never materialize.

The FMP-X1 ships in three days with 10 movies.
http://store.sony.com/p/4K-Media-Server/en/p/FMPX1


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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Unless they can create a codec that reduces the size of the data by a very significant margin, expect a new disc format. Just don't expect to see it for a long time, so no need to hold off on your purchase.
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-entertainment/1290532/how-much-hard-disk-space-you-will-need-for-4k-video-files

They're talking H.265 and ITU's 4k spec specifies 10 or 12bit encoding which is more efficient than the 8-bit used for H.264. So conservatively we're looking at 4k, being compressed to Blu-ray quality standards, being less than 100GB.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #14 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 09:02 AM
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I don't think anything I said was contradicted, 4K is a ways off and it is too early to purchase 4K equipment unless you have deep pockets or a specialized need or you just want to be number one on the block.

There is always a chicken or egg issue with new technology. I have had laser disks and SVHS. DVD replaced both technologies before they caught on.

Yes, one may be able to get a Sony 4K player and 10 4K movies, (I don't know if the 4K movies are in native 4K format or if the movies are any I want to see) .I don't know who is going to provide 4K movies downloads or how many and at what expense. But a display device is going to cost.
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post #15 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmoderndesign View Post

I don't think anything I said was contradicted, 4K is a ways off and it is too early to purchase 4K equipment unless you have deep pockets or a specialized need or you just want to be number one on the block.

There is always a chicken or egg issue with new technology. I have had laser disks and SVHS. DVD replaced both technologies before they caught on.

Yes, one may be able to get a Sony 4K player and 10 4K movies, (I don't know if the 4K movies are in native 4K format or if the movies are any I want to see) .I don't know who is going to provide 4K movies downloads or how many and at what expense. But a display device is going to cost.

Yup, going to 4k is not as exciting as going from the old analog standard to HD and that took years. I think the transition to 4K will be even slower because I think people are happy with their HD equipment.
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post #16 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 12:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Not if you get a projector, now granted affordable 4k projectors are a ways out but you can get a pretty nice 1080p projector for around ~$1k these days.
We're not talking streaming (yet), just IP distribution, you'll download the movies and watch them from a local copy. That makes bandwidth less of an issue (technically it makes it a non-issue, but in practice you need decent speeds if you ever want your download to complete).
The FMP-X1 ships in three days with 10 movies.
http://store.sony.com/p/4K-Media-Server/en/p/FMPX1
They're talking H.265 and ITU's 4k spec specifies 10 or 12bit encoding which is more efficient than the 8-bit used for H.264. So conservatively we're looking at 4k, being compressed to Blu-ray quality standards, being less than 100GB.

Bolding is mine.

Therein is the problem, if you compress it to BluRay standards, you are back to 1080p, which removes the purpose of 4K. It is like compressing a BluRay onto a dual layer DVD. Also, 100GB is still too large for the current physical format, so a new physical format is needed.
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post #17 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxn View Post

Reason i didnt want to buy a drive yet is because i need a slim slot loading drive, and those are more expensive and harder to come by.

There are slot loading BDXL players available, they cost more http://www.digistor.com/Optical-Drives/Blu-ray-Drives they sell bezel kits too if you need those. They only have Teac bdxl drive @ the moment. Sony, Panasonic make slot loading bdxl drives as well
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post #18 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 12:34 PM
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I think there will be a lot of focus on upscaling current bluray content.
I don't know about how 4k will come about. H265 will bring some improvements in compression, but not enough to cover the increased pixel count and remain in a 50gb disc.
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post #19 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

I think there will be a lot of focus on upscaling current bluray content.
I don't know about how 4k will come about. H265 will bring some improvements in compression, but not enough to cover the increased pixel count and remain in a 50gb disc.
I think MINDBOMB is correct because DVDs upscaled with MPC-HC with the Jinc3+AR scaler on a 27" 2560x1440 monitor has clearly better resolution than the same material on a 1080 plasma TV
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post #20 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 02:38 PM
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Sony has a 55' 4k TV for $5,000. Not a terrible price point considering the Panasonic Vierra 65' VT60 is $3,600 and the ZT60 is $4,100 (keep in mind that's comparing 55' to 65').

http://store.sony.com/p/Sony-4K-TV-Ultra-HD/en/p/XBR55X900A

It seems like the big focus is on upscaling current content to 4k.
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post #21 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 03:01 PM
 
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Just remember that until HDMI 2.0 comes out any 4K TV you buy now is the gimped version of it.
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post #22 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Just remember that until HDMI 2.0 comes out any 4K TV you buy now is the gimped version of it.

Thanks for the reminder! That makes my Christmas time decision a whole lot easier!
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post #23 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by img eL View Post

There are slot loading BDXL players available, they cost more http://www.digistor.com/Optical-Drives/Blu-ray-Drives they sell bezel kits too if you need those. They only have Teac bdxl drive @ the moment. Sony, Panasonic make slot loading bdxl drives as well

Thanks for the link.

But cant use those because i need the button on the right.

Im going to be getting an origenae m10.
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post #24 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 03:39 PM
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If a manufacturer puts a display port on the tv it could then be used with a pc at 60hz.

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post #25 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmoderndesign View Post

I don't think anything I said was contradicted, 4K is a ways off and it is too early to purchase 4K equipment unless you have deep pockets or a specialized need or you just want to be number one on the block.

You said 80" screens are too expensive for normal people (paraphrasing), that's not true, you can get a very nice 100, 120, or larger screen easily for under $2k, I think that's "within reach" of normal people.

Though on the 4k, you have a point, good 4k is going to be quite expensive for the next year or two still, although there's the 55" Seiki that's <$1500.
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Bolding is mine.

Therein is the problem, if you compress it to BluRay standards, you are back to 1080p, which removes the purpose of 4K. It is like compressing a BluRay onto a dual layer DVD. Also, 100GB is still too large for the current physical format, so a new physical format is needed.

You misunderstand, I didn't mean Blu-ray disc specification, I mean the standard to which Blu-ray movies are encoded regarding of artifacts. 1080p on Blu-ray is compressed to a very high quality output, the same sort of quality (lack of artifacts), would be less than 100GB total size. This is vs some of the demos showing 4K at as low as 20Mbps with HEVC which would be more of a Netflix type quality.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #26 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 06:05 PM
 
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Ah, ok.
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post #27 of 52 Old 06-29-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxn View Post

But cant use those because i need the button on the right.
Im going to be getting an origenae m10.

That M10 looks nice! They have slot loading BDXL drives with buttons on the right. Also new models will be out this year also
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post #28 of 52 Old 06-30-2013, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Just remember that until HDMI 2.0 comes out any 4K TV you buy now is the gimped version of it.

yup, it usually doesn't pay to be an early adopter. It would be nice if the push for 4K movies eventually ups the frame rate for 1080p content, the 24fps thing is the biggest weakness in my opinion.
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post #29 of 52 Old 06-30-2013, 07:05 AM
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I haven't read the entire thread, but I did see mention that Sony is involved with the new format. That gives me great pause to sit back and see how things evolve. Sony has a notorious track record for backing media formats that never materialize or fail shortly after being introduced. Blu-Ray is the only winning format they've backed in the past 30-40 years. How many of you remember the ElCassette, Digital Compact Cassette, Mini-Disc, and of course the grand prize winner - Beta? I'm not 100% sure about the DCC, but I believe Sony was involved with it at some point.

Sony tries like hell to introduce new formats in the hope that it will somehow gain support and they can rake in the licensing fees from everyone else. The truth is, Sony products have fallen from grace over the past decade or so. They were once the frontrunner in many categories but their quality has fallen off considerably from what it once was.

FWIW, a new HD format being introduced at this point is likely to be met with a lot of consumer resistance. There are still a lot of people that haven't upgraded to HDTV yet, let alone Blu-Ray or 3DTV. I suspect that this will be limited to the high end of the consumer spectrum until the technology and price trickle down to mainstream users. The average consumer isn't likely to want to spend $2K on a new 4K TV when 42" HD flat screens are selling for less than $500.
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post #30 of 52 Old 06-30-2013, 08:19 AM
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Extremetech had an article on a new Tech, It was a new laser that could write a petabyte on one DVD.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/159245-new-optical-laser-can-increase-dvd-storage-up-to-one-petabyte
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