Intel 4770k/4600 video issue - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 59 Old 06-30-2013, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I've recently started using video from an Intel 4770k.

Problem: When rapid motion is combined with very high brightness/contrast change, a narrow horizontal video "spike" originates from the area of greatest change. The spike is subtle and very quick...sorta like the PJ is instantaneously loosing sync.

Due to my inexperience I'm thinking something isn't set correctly...but what?

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post #2 of 59 Old 06-30-2013, 06:00 PM
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0-255 greyscale versus 16-235 ?

Are you using HDMI. Intel only does limited over HDMI no matter what you set it to output. I just added a GPU card to my 4770k for this reason.

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post #3 of 59 Old 06-30-2013, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup, HDMI. Were you seeing the same thing I am or only the black level problem? What video card did you go with?

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post #4 of 59 Old 06-30-2013, 06:54 PM
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I re-used my old 6870 XFX Radeon card.

If I was buying today I would get a 7770 or 7790 for $99-$150 or a 7850/7870 for the next step up.

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post #5 of 59 Old 06-30-2013, 08:04 PM
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So the new Haswell CPU's haven't fixed the greyscale problem? That's disappointing that this still hasn't been fixed since the Sandybridge CPU's.
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post #6 of 59 Old 07-01-2013, 05:22 AM
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No actually Intel just chooses to follow the HDMI white paper specs exactly.

HDMI is a 16-235

You can go full on DVI, VGA, or Display port.

Just not HDMI

There is nothing wrong with Haswell.

In comparison people have been hacking Nvidia cards for years for the same types of issues.

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post #7 of 59 Old 07-03-2013, 12:37 PM
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HDMI itself is a half-assed standard when it comes to doing anything but "plain old video", its too bad every TV and consumer device uses it.

Give me displayport or give me death...one can dream.

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post #8 of 59 Old 07-14-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup...I've hated HDMI since day one.

Anyhow, the cure for my problem was a Gigabyte GTX660 video card. Maybe overkill for just movies and concerts (no gaming) but it produces a terrific picture. Guess Intel video just isn't ready for prime time yet!

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post #9 of 59 Old 07-14-2013, 02:28 PM
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It's just the technical specs of HDMI are 16-235.

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post #10 of 59 Old 07-14-2013, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

It's just the technical specs of HDMI are 16-235.

Oh ok. So this is another case of a company going so by the book that they end up hurting some of their users. I just got done dealing with Microsoft's 'read only' issue that automatically puts any folder back to read only. It makes a ton of sense in terms of keeping novice users safe but for advanced users with automated scripts running in the background it's a pain in the ass. I had to create an additional Python Script to temporarily make my folder writable just so I could delete something.

I understand and support that these companies are going by the book, but I really wish they would add in workarounds for people that have a good idea of what they are doing.
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post #11 of 59 Old 07-14-2013, 10:59 PM
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What's wrong with outputting Limited range RGB? Most TV converts input video to YCbCr 4:2:2 internally to process it anyway.

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post #12 of 59 Old 07-14-2013, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

What's wrong with outputting Limited range RGB? Most TV converts input video to YCbCr 4:2:2 internally to process it anyway.
Desktop and any non-video usage is native full range content and will look rather odd on limited range.

Also, the 4:2:2 conversion for processing does not affect the range on any half good TV.
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post #13 of 59 Old 07-14-2013, 11:32 PM
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All contents (desktop, videos [with Full Range output from the video renderer], pictures or whatever) are uniformly compressed to 16-235 by the graphics driver and TV interprets it this way (then may convert to YCbCr internally). The point is make sure

HTPC output range = TV input range

Then everything should look good. (In the case of Intel iGPU, set TV input = Limited Range RGB.)

If you don't trust the driver's compression (0-255 -> 16-235) process, fearing PQ degradation, outputting Full Range RGB is the way to go, of course. But this type of people won't use cheap integrated GPU anyway.

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post #14 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 12:16 AM
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I don't need a fancy GPU just to look at my (full range) vacation pictures without range compression for example, or do some web browsing, or even light gaming. Its not too much to ask to support full range RGB output, which is certainly possible and fully supported over HDMI, just Intel doesn't manage to do it.

@Mfusick:
Connect a PC monitor over HDMI with an Intel iGPU and you'll see that you're incorrect. HDMI itself is not limited to 16-235, its just that Intel does auto-negotiation with the display device, and if the display identifies itself as a TV it'll go 16-235.
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post #15 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 01:02 AM
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HDMI specifications (6.6 Video Quantization Ranges) say
Quote:
Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.” YCbCr components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range.

"Shall" means order, promise, requirement, obligation. Intel followed the specs strictly (in the same spirit, Intel mb don't support audio over DVI ports). Anyway if you set

HTPC output range = TV input range (Limited Range or Full Range),

then there should be no problem.

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post #16 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 02:09 AM
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For video there are no problems, but *native* full-range content can easily look odd and cause banding and posterization, especially on PC games with comic graphic. This is from personal experience, not just theoretical thinking.

The fact remains that its the only vendor where you cannot use full range, and for some of us thats the only reason we get a small dedicated GPU. Nothing you say can make that go away or make Intel look any better.
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post #17 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 04:00 AM
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So why do other people hate Limited Range RGB? Another reason would be that there are multiple sources with a HDMI switch (including AVR), each of which has a different B&W range. E.g. a source is a gaming PC or console with full range RGB output, another is an Intel HTPC with limited range RGB; TV input range has to be changed each time the source is changed.

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post #18 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

So why do other people hate Limited Range RGB?

Very simple: a lot of cheap LCD monitors (not TVs) only support full-range RGB. So, you really can't use HDMI port of these monitor for Intel GPU PCs. I personally don' hate limited range RGB. Now I know the limitation of Intel GPU and will only use the DVI port of the monitor to connect to my PC.
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post #19 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 05:46 AM
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If your monitor talks to the GPU properly it should identify it as a monitor and switch to PC mode, which always used full RGB for me, even over HDMI. But I've since switched to DisplayPort since my new board has that.
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post #20 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

What's wrong with outputting Limited range RGB? Most TV converts input video to YCbCr 4:2:2 internally to process it anyway.

My Samsung LCD PC monitor does not like it

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post #21 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

If your monitor talks to the GPU properly it should identify it as a monitor and switch to PC mode, which always used full RGB for me, even over HDMI. But I've since switched to DisplayPort since my new board has that.

I know but for some reason my 23" Samsung PC monitor shows as TV. I can't fix it. frown.gif

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post #22 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 06:26 AM
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So some PC monitors support only Full Range RGB, but Intel GPU recognizes it as a HDTV somehow when the HDMI port of the monitor is used, hence sends Limited Range RGB and dark ares are washed out, right? Hmm, that's a serious problem if you can't use the DVI port of the monitor. But why can't you use the DVI port of the monitor at all?

Compatibility of Intel iGPU with PC monitor is a little bit off topic in HTPC forum, of course.

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post #23 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Has this article been refuted?

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb

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post #24 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 07:01 AM
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I hate it because it made my entire desktop look washed out on my Samsung LCD. At the time I was perfectly happy with my iGPU other than the washed out colors. It played all my 1080p content just fine and I could get HD audio to my receiver. Once I upgrade my TV (have my eyes on a zt60) then I'll be moving this TV to the bedroom and building a SFF fanless HTPC (I live in an apt so stuffing it in a closet isn't an option). To keep the wire mess to a minimum I was hoping to just run a single HDMI cable to the TV and call it a day but thanks to limited RGB I'll have to run a DVI to HDMI cable (I pray that actually works) to connect to the TV then an audio cable.
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post #25 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Has this article been refuted?

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb

Well it was questionable from the beginning really.
Yes, there may be BTB or WTW in the original, however a properly calibrated TV will have 16 as the blackest black it can show, otherwise you lack some contrast, so BTB can simply not be shown anymore, anyway.
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post #26 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

So some PC monitors support only Full Range RGB, but Intel GPU recognizes it as a HDTV somehow when the HDMI port of the monitor is used, hence sends Limited Range RGB and dark ares are washed out, right? Hmm, that's a serious problem if you can't use the DVI port of the monitor. But why can't you use the DVI port of the monitor at all?

Compatibility of Intel iGPU with PC monitor is a little bit off topic in HTPC forum, of course.

My HP 23xi IPS monitor doesn't support limited range on HDMI port. I have two PCs on my desk, one small form factor PC, one laptop. Both using Intel iGPU. So, I have to use DVI for one (primary PC) and HDMI for another (laptop) and suffer with the washed out color of HDMI connection. I suspect this applies to almost all sub-$200 23-24" monitors which can be used a personal TV watching. So who's to say it is OT wink.gif
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post #27 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

If your monitor talks to the GPU properly it should identify it as a monitor and switch to PC mode, which always used full RGB for me, even over HDMI. But I've since switched to DisplayPort since my new board has that.

These monitor was identified by Intel GPU as TV on HDMI port and monitor on DVI port. There is nothing you can do to change that. And this is not isolated incidents.
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post #28 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

So some PC monitors support only Full Range RGB, but Intel GPU recognizes it as a HDTV somehow when the HDMI port of the monitor is used, hence sends Limited Range RGB and dark ares are washed out, right? Hmm, that's a serious problem if you can't use the DVI port of the monitor. But why can't you use the DVI port of the monitor at all?

Compatibility of Intel iGPU with PC monitor is a little bit off topic in HTPC forum, of course.

Because I have multiple monitors and not just 1.

DVI was used on my main monitor 26". My 23" is second and third smile.gif

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post #29 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

So some PC monitors support only Full Range RGB, but Intel GPU recognizes it as a HDTV somehow when the HDMI port of the monitor is used, hence sends Limited Range RGB and dark ares are washed out, right? Hmm, that's a serious problem if you can't use the DVI port of the monitor. But why can't you use the DVI port of the monitor at all?

Compatibility of Intel iGPU with PC monitor is a little bit off topic in HTPC forum, of course.

True. But still an issue. In my case this issue effect my daily driver workstation.

My HTPC works fine with HDMI to my Denon avr3312 and DLP projector.

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post #30 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

So some PC monitors support only Full Range RGB, but Intel GPU recognizes it as a HDTV somehow when the HDMI port of the monitor is used, hence sends Limited Range RGB and dark ares are washed out, right? Hmm, that's a serious problem if you can't use the DVI port of the monitor. But why can't you use the DVI port of the monitor at all?

Compatibility of Intel iGPU with PC monitor is a little bit off topic in HTPC forum, of course.

Because I have multiple monitors and not just 1.

DVI was used on my main monitor 26". My 23" is second and third smile.gif

Triple monitor should be no problem:

- HDMI with a HDMI-DVI adapter --> DVI port of the 1st monitor
- DVI --> DVI port of the 2nd monitor
- DP with an active DP-DVI (or HDMI) adapter --> DVI (or HDMI) port of the 3rd monitor (DP only outputs full range RGB so that you should be able to use either DVI or HDMI port of the monitor.)

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