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post #1 of 31 Old 07-18-2013, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I newly upgraded my 4 years old AMD HTPC to the latest Haswell i7 processor HTPC without dedicated Graphic Card
.
I found out that picture quality out of Intel Haswell internal graphic processor is far below of that from the old HTPC running with ATI Radeon 5800 graphic card.
It looks grainy, dim, no contrast and not sharp.
I do direct comparison with my Denon AVR4520 through 2 HDMI inputs on Epson 1080p Projector.

My new Haswell HTPC has Windows 7 - 64bit
My old AMD HTPC running on Windows 8 - 64bit

Can anyone explain this ? I am very desperate about this issue.

Should I install additional Graphic Card, if yes which one?

THANKS
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post #2 of 31 Old 07-18-2013, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

I newly upgraded my 4 years old AMD HTPC to the latest Haswell i7 processor HTPC without dedicated Graphic Card
.
I found out that picture quality out of Intel Haswell internal graphic processor is far below of that from the old HTPC running with ATI Radeon 5800 graphic card.
It looks grainy, dim, no contrast and not sharp.
I do direct comparison with my Denon AVR4520 through 2 HDMI inputs on Epson 1080p Projector.

My new Haswell HTPC has Windows 7 - 64bit
My old AMD HTPC running on Windows 8 - 64bit

Can anyone explain this ? I am very desperate about this issue.

Should I install additional Graphic Card, if yes which one?

THANKS

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1464148/should-i-wait-for-haswell/200_100#post_23542449

Did you see my post ?

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post #3 of 31 Old 07-18-2013, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

I newly upgraded my 4 years old AMD HTPC to the latest Haswell i7 processor HTPC without dedicated Graphic Card.
I found out that picture quality out of Intel internal graphic card is far below of that from the old HTPC running with ATI Radeon 5800 graphic card.
It looks grainy, dim, no contrast and not sharp.
I do direct comparison with my Denon AVR4520 through 2 HDMI inputs on Epson 1080p Projector.

My new Haswell HTPC has Windows 7 - 64bit
My old AMD HTPC running on Windows 8 - 64bit

Can anyone explain this ? I am very desperate about this issue.
Should I install additional Graphic Card, if yes which one?

0-255 versus 16-235.

That's your problem. Intel GPU integrated will only do 16-235 limited range over HDMI, so if your display, and your player are trying to do full 0-255 scale your going to get what your getting.

You must either set your player, your TV, and everything else to output 16-235 to match what the Intel GPU sends out- or upgrade to a GPU card that will do 0-255.

Imagine I told you to fit 255 somethings into a container that only holds 219 somethings (235 minus-16 = 219 ) It might get messy.

Your projector should accept both 16-235, and 0-255 so that's the good news.

Which player are you using for playback? how is it set ?

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post #4 of 31 Old 07-18-2013, 09:19 PM
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Mfusick, if your mobo has display port can it do 0-255?
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post #5 of 31 Old 07-18-2013, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Mfusik,
My source is 1080p x264 mkv files (not BluRay disc).
Can you be more detail about the setting you mentioned above? I am not Computer Savvy guy.

My Projector is Epson full HD 3D Projector, should be technically up-to-date model.
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post #6 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 06:16 AM
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I meant what player your using to play the videos ???

VLC?
MPC-HC?
Wmc?
XBMC?

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post #7 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 06:17 AM
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If your player is set to 0-255 but then your GPU sends 16-235 your going to have a problem.

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post #8 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I meant what player your using to play the videos ???

VLC?
MPC-HC?
Wmc?
XBMC?

VLC
But the display quality problem is in general speaking, even if I open IE browsing internet that's also the case. not only watching movies.
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post #9 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

VLC
But the display quality problem is in general speaking, even if I open IE browsing internet that's also the case. not only watching movies.


Yup.

I feel your pain. How do you have it hooked up ? What kind of cable? What kind of TV or monitor ?

You might want to set the control panel for Intel GPU to limited range- that should help. I am pretty sure your Projector and your AVR should accept limited range.

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post #10 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 01:18 PM
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Did you set your desktop resolution/refresh rate to match the native resolution/refresh rate of the Projector?

Are you connected via HDMI?
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post #11 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

VLC
But the display quality problem is in general speaking, even if I open IE browsing internet that's also the case. not only watching movies.

See this http://www.avsforum.com/t/1479632/intel-4770k-4600-video-issue. It will affect all outputs. But VLC itself also has some options that needs to be setup correctly (the video render option) first. Then, you need to match your projector to your iGPU output. Even if you are going to buy a new GPU, you still need to make sure it matches up. With Intel GPU, you just don't have option at all. It outputs limited range RGB on HDMI. The result of mis-match will be low contrast, washed out color.
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post #12 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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2 of my HTPCs (old AMD and new Intel Haswell) connected to Denon AVR4520(Denon latest model) through 2 same quality HDMI cables and from Denon via one 25ft HDMI cable to Epson projector HOME CINEMA 5010.
I am talking direct comparison of both HTPC's picture quality, huge difference in term of sharpness, brightness, contrast, also color, everything..
AMD is way far above Haswell, can not be right?
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post #13 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Mfusick, you said in other thread:
I re-used my old 6870 XFX Radeon card.
If I was buying today I would get a 7770 or 7790 for $99-$150 or a 7850/7870 for the next step up.

I am also thinking in that direction.
What do you think the best Graphic Card we can get for max $400 ?
I do only HD/Bluray movies and TV watching, seldom Games or not at all.
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post #14 of 31 Old 07-20-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

Mfusick, you said in other thread:
I re-used my old 6870 XFX Radeon card.
If I was buying today I would get a 7770 or 7790 for $99-$150 or a 7850/7870 for the next step up.

I am also thinking in that direction.
What do you think the best Graphic Card we can get for max $400 ?
I do only HD/Bluray movies and TV watching, seldom Games or not at all.

$400 is kinda crazy if your not gaming!

Get a 7790 is fine.

7870 if you want overkill.

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post #15 of 31 Old 07-20-2013, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mfusick.
Hope that will solve the problem and I get what I want for best picture quality.

7870, nVidia or Radeon, any particular GC you prefer?
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post #16 of 31 Old 07-21-2013, 06:20 AM
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7870 is a Radeon. Radeon does 6000 series, 7000 series, 8000 series etc....

The XX50 is weaker than the xx70 or xx90.

Example:

7750>7770>7790 or 7850>7870.

There is no Nvidia in this conversation biggrin.gif I think Radeon cards are better for HTPC for a variety of reasons, but that's not saying Nvidia can't be used.

7790 with 2GB DDR is what I would say you should get. Save your cash and you won't mind upgrading sooner if you needed it. (You won't wink.gif )

ReneTHX has had lots of posts and testing done with various cards and he's much more an expert than I am but I think he generally says the same thing.
You could PM him and he might chime in for additional specifics.

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post #17 of 31 Old 09-16-2013, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to buy a dedicated Graphic Card for my HTPC.
I decide to go with AMD ATI Radeon.
My HTPC Casing is Silverstone Grandia HTPC Case GD08B.
The space inside is very limited, the maximum length of PCI-e card can be install is 10 inches long.
The GC must be 9" or shorter in length.

I need help:
What is the highest-end of ATI Radeon GC I can get and can fit into my limitation of PCI-e slot space (9" or shorter) ?
HD7970 ?

THANKS a bunch.
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post #18 of 31 Old 09-16-2013, 11:42 PM
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7790: 8.5"
7850 / 7870: 9.5" (there are a couple of shorter cards, but not recommended because of noise)
7950 / 7970: 10.5"
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post #19 of 31 Old 02-17-2014, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I end up install HD7750. Work well, many step upgraded than the Intell Haswell onboard graphic processor.
Image looks sharp and flicker-free.

Unfortunately after 7 months of enjoyable moments, the problem arise.
Due to its tiny micro HDMI socket and the "heavy" weight of HDMI cable, the connection began to lose. Image appear on and off. I have to use Stick-Wax to keep it firm, but it still not 100% fixed.

I must looking for another Graphic Card with FULL size HDMI socket.

Any recommendation the latest model? AMD Radeon, Card length maximum 9", budget up to $350.


THANKS
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post #20 of 31 Old 02-17-2014, 07:54 PM
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did your card come with a DVI to HDMI adapter? Most (if not all) AMD cards output Audio through the DVI connector when using the DVI to HDMI adapter. Before you spend a bunch of money on a new card give it a try!
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post #21 of 31 Old 02-18-2014, 07:52 PM
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Not sure how good these are but this is probably what I'd try -If I had no front or back cooling fan, I might attach a fan too it but lower the RPM to a ridiculously low setting.
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post #22 of 31 Old 02-18-2014, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaibrok View Post

did your card come with a DVI to HDMI adapter? Most (if not all) AMD cards output Audio through the DVI connector when using the DVI to HDMI adapter. Before you spend a bunch of money on a new card give it a try!

I have tried it, no sound came out, may be I use the wrong adapter (no sound connection) ?
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post #23 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 06:13 AM
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Do you ever think of going back to the embedded intel GPU? The output range issue has been resolved by using a registry key posted in another thread. Once the output range matches your TV/Monitor, you should not be able to tell any difference at all with a dedicated vide card.
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post #24 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Do you ever think of going back to the embedded intel GPU? The output range issue has been resolved by using a registry key posted in another thread. Once the output range matches your TV/Monitor, you should not be able to tell any difference at all with a dedicated vide card.

Can you give me the thread link?
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post #25 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 07:25 AM
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post #26 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 08:03 AM
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^ that's the thread.
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post #27 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 08:50 AM
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Can anyone explain how to see what your graphics card is putting out (0-255 or 16-235)?

My TV does not appear to have a setting to switch, so I assume it's looking for 16-235.

Sent from my generic not my computer device.
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post #28 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 10:49 AM
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That depends on what your graphics card is. Each chipset vendor and even different drivers have different way to check or set (or not able to set). This is a very complex question. Also, applications need to be configured accordingly as well. Not just video card. There is no easy or one size fits all answers.
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post #29 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post

Can anyone explain how to see what your graphics card is putting out (0-255 or 16-235)?

My TV does not appear to have a setting to switch, so I assume it's looking for 16-235.

Sent from my generic not my computer device.


You can set everything 16-235 and it should work fairly well if your display won't accept 0-255

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post #30 of 31 Old 02-19-2014, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackDiesel14 View Post

Mfusick, if your mobo has display port can it do 0-255?

Yes both DVI and Display port on Haswell do 0-255. Only HDMI is limited to 16-235.

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