Looks like no Android on the Ceton Echo - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 55 Old 09-01-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I am sure you never reboot your six channel Prime - since there is not one. wink.gif

Honestly, I am not sure how often I actually need to reboot it - every now and again I lose the tuners. For me, it is simpler to reboot it weekly when I do the routine maintenance on the rest of my system. I never have problems then.

Maybe he/she is referring to the HDHR-6CC, which I have, and which is essentially a pair of 3 tuner HDHD's in a rackmount enclosure?
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post #32 of 55 Old 09-01-2013, 07:55 PM
 
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Maybe he/she is referring to the HDHR-6CC, which I have, and which is essentially a pair of 3 tuner HDHD's in a rackmount enclosure?

Yeah, maybe, but that is just two 3 tuner devices super glued together. Just busting his chops with it, really, all in good fun.
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post #33 of 55 Old 09-02-2013, 02:10 PM
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It is safe to say that I wont be buying anymore ceton products.
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post #34 of 55 Old 09-02-2013, 04:49 PM
 
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It is safe to say that I wont be buying anymore ceton products.

That is too bad, their other products are very good.
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post #35 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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Does anyone want to trade me an xbox slim for my echo?
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post #36 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

That is too bad, their other products are very good.
I'll second that. Their cablecard tuners are great. I don't have any experience with the USB or ETH models, but the PCI-e InfiniTV4 works beautifully.
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post #37 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 01:34 PM
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Its a real bummer.

When this was announced I was really excited. I assumed it would be more like an evolution of the HP x280n and DLink DSM750. It would play the containers and codecs that came into common use sine the Vista era - mainly H264, DTS, and MKV. DTS even announced that the Echo would be certified and licensed.

It would also access streaming services like the those devices had. They could connect to Napster, Rhapsody, Live 365 - the common ones of that time. A new box should've had Netflix and Pandora at the very minimum, and then other popular ones like Hulu, HBO Go, and Amazon Prime - all the stuff the 360 can do but makes a non online gamer pay extra for.

I said for the last few years I was surprised that the WDTV, Roku, NeoTV, etc never included a WMC extender mode. But now I'm not. Working with WMC extenders at the hardware level must be pretty difficult.

WMC was left for dead when W7 announced that any PC could use cable card tuners but there weren't any available. The ATI DCT units were obsolete when W7 came out. Ceton 100% revitalized the HTPC DVR market. It just seems a truely modern extender was too ambitious.
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post #38 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Its a real bummer.

When this was announced I was really excited. I assumed it would be more like an evolution of the HP x280n and DLink DSM750. It would play the containers and codecs that came into common use sine the Vista era - mainly H264, DTS, and MKV. DTS even announced that the Echo would be certified and licensed.

It would also access streaming services like the those devices had. They could connect to Napster, Rhapsody, Live 365 - the common ones of that time. A new box should've had Netflix and Pandora at the very minimum, and then other popular ones like Hulu, HBO Go, and Amazon Prime - all the stuff the 360 can do but makes a non online gamer pay extra for.

I said for the last few years I was surprised that the WDTV, Roku, NeoTV, etc never included a WMC extender mode. But now I'm not. Working with WMC extenders at the hardware level must be pretty difficult.

WMC was left for dead when W7 announced that any PC could use cable card tuners but there weren't any available. The ATI DCT units were obsolete when W7 came out. Ceton 100% revitalized the HTPC DVR market. It just seems a truely modern extender was too ambitious.

Did they or did they just beat Silicondust to market?

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post #39 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 02:05 PM
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Did they or did they just beat Silicondust to market?

"Beating" them to market would imply that there was some sort of race. To my knowledge there was no mention of SD or Hauppauge working on CC tuners until the InfiniTV was already out and Ceton had proven the market was viable.

I think its safe to assume they let Ceton pave the way. If they weren't waiting on Ceton what were they waiting on? The ATI DCT had been out for years.

You make it seem like getting a CC Tuner on the market before SD was just happenstance.

If I had a signature, this is where it would be.
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post #40 of 55 Old 09-03-2013, 02:13 PM
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Did they or did they just beat Silicondust to market?

"Beating" them to market would imply that there was some sort of race. To my knowledge there was no mention of SD or Hauppauge working on CC tuners until the InfiniTV was already out and Ceton had proven the market was viable.

I think its safe to assume they let Ceton pave the way. If they weren't waiting on Ceton what were they waiting on? The ATI DCT had been out for years.

You make it seem like getting a CC Tuner on the market before SD was just happenstance.

That wasn't my intent. I was merely asking the question. I do not know if SD was in development when the InfiniTV4 came out or if they did it after seeing it come out.

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post #41 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

It just seems a truely modern extender was too ambitious.

The really head-scratching part is that even a basic extender (as good as the 7-year old Xbox) seemed to be too ambitious, and everything points to a bad chipset selection that they couldn't overcome or workaround.
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post #42 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 06:44 AM
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The really head-scratching part is that even a basic extender (as good as the 7-year old Xbox) seemed to be too ambitious, and everything points to a bad chipset selection that they couldn't overcome or workaround.

You nailed it. The so called Android OS support is also developed/supplied by the chipset maker. Just like the failed video decoder in that chipset, the same maker can't get Android work properly without fry the chips. What I don't understand is why Ceton can't make Echo at least Win8 compatible given their close relationship with Microsoft. It's not like MS won't allow it. They just need update the code with enhanced security support for Win8.

I could care less about Android support from day one. But I do want my Echo to work as an extender in Win8 so that I can migrate my main PC to Win8.
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post #43 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 08:04 AM
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Why would you think Ceton has a close relationship with Microsoft? They had to pull teeth to even license the extender code.
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post #44 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

The really head-scratching part is that even a basic extender (as good as the 7-year old Xbox) seemed to be too ambitious, and everything points to a bad chipset selection that they couldn't overcome or workaround.

You nailed it. The so called Android OS support is also developed/supplied by the chipset maker. Just like the failed video decoder in that chipset, the same maker can't get Android work properly without fry the chips. What I don't understand is why Ceton can't make Echo at least Win8 compatible given their close relationship with Microsoft. It's not like MS won't allow it. They just need update the code with enhanced security support for Win8.

I could care less about Android support from day one. But I do want my Echo to work as an extender in Win8 so that I can migrate my main PC to Win8.

Who said android would fry the chip? It was the upgrade process that caused a problem. Android does run on the echo but getting it on the echos in the world via an internet upgrade was another problem all together according to Ceton. Personally, I think that it could be made to work but Ceton pulled the plug and decided to move on to other ventures thereby applying a tourniquet to the bleeding red ink on the echo project. I don't think that there is necessarily a rosy relationship between MS and Ceton. MS is not going to release any code to allow the echo to use the Win8 RDP session. Why would they do that for a product to compete with their Xbox?

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post #45 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 04:48 PM
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Why would you think Ceton has a close relationship with Microsoft? They had to pull teeth to even license the extender code.

Ballmer once demoed Windows 7 WMC using Ceton tuner in a keynote. I thought they have better relationship than others out there.

As for Android and the chip fry, I meant to say that upgrade process would fry the chips as Ceton 'claimed'. But that's probably just an excuse. It would be no difference than upgrade Echo firmware. And I don't see massive fried Echo happening that way other than the normal lost of firmware or DOA that occurs frequently with Echos (mine included) which has nothing to do with Android.

It's a myth that somehow MS don't want to release any Extender code so that it won't compete with its Xbox 360. If ppl buy Xbox 360s just to use as extenders, MS will surely losing money on those consoles as Xbox's main revenue is how many games purchased per console. Add to that the new Xbox One has no MCE in sight means MS really don't care about the extender business that much.
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post #46 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 05:28 PM
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I meant to say that upgrade process would fry the chips as Ceton 'claimed'.

Show me where they said exacly it will 'fry the chip'. You can't, cause that's not what they said. A component occasionally fails during the upgrade process. The failure rate was too high to support for Ceton.
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It would be no difference than upgrade Echo firmware.

Don't make claims about things you are ignorant on. Any developer would tell you you're wrong.
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post #47 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 06:52 PM
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My understanding is that the chip won't take a firmware upgrade... not that it would "fry" it. They did not mention which one but I almost want to think they used the same chips in their infinitvs as many have posted about having to return the infinitv when it also no longer will take an update... Though it may be entirely different. I don't have the specs of the echo for ram, and flash or any hardware that can also be upgraded ... it could be that the flash memory chip is fine for up to half the contents being filled but go beyond that you get errors... it could also be something that controls the flashing process is failing... I do wish they would be more specific but I have a feeling that they don't want to open up potential claims for hardware defects when it isn't a defect for the purpose of the device's release. But the reason they gave sounds fishy as there would have been other methods to fix the problem if it was really just a problem in upgrading the unit. For all I know the assembly plant substituted inferior components that "worked" but were not up to the task of doing any more (such as substituting a 2MB chip for a 4MB chip or something similar)

I honestly feel that after all was said and done, that too many people complained about 3rd party apps needing a mouse and keyboard, that they decided that to fully support android they needed both more flash space as well as more ram in the unit and perhaps internally also tested it on a quad core model and said we really underestimated what we needed to make this work... do we announce the echo 2 now or let a few months pass to announce the new hardware... quadcore, double whatever ram/flash memory is inside, built in bluetooth (for wireless keyboard/mouse/deluxe remote... might add wireless to use as an "android" device but say it is unsupported, in terms of quality for WMC), and perhaps add a few more usb ports to add a keyboard/mouse/drive/tuner without the use of the hub (I'm almost talking about a stripped down "Q" appliance that "could" do it all...but the price also goes up $50-$100 without the optional extras (Utilite has a similar "pro" device for $219 with 32GB sata ssd and dual gigabit ethernet and dual graphics)

I had also read that there was a problem with the processor fully supporting the timings needed for HDMI without adding a frame every 16 or so seconds... last I heard they might fix this with later chip releases.
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post #48 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 08:47 PM
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But the reason they gave sounds fishy as there would have been other methods to fix the problem if it was really just a problem in upgrading the unit.

Such as?

Switching to Android likely required modifying some very low-level firmware. If the bug is sufficiently low level, I'm not sure there'd be any recourse. The same mechanisms that could update the problematic firmware (probably a bootloader) would probably trigger the same bug.

It's not clear whether the problem permanently bricked the device, or just required extraordinary measures. It wouldn't surprise me if the Echo has a JTAG header that allowed them to recover from a bad flash, but that's not something a user could do themselves.
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post #49 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 08:57 PM
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It's not clear whether the problem permanently bricked the device

It didn't.
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post #50 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 08:58 PM
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It didn't.

Do you know what they had to do to recover?
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post #51 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 09:24 PM
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Just did a regular Echo recovery to WMC-only firmware. No JTAG cable or anything.
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post #52 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 09:29 PM
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Just did a regular Echo recovery to WMC-only firmware. No JTAG cable or anything.

Interesting... I assume it fails consistently, then. That is, if you tried flashing the Android firmware again it would fail again. Is that right?
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post #53 of 55 Old 09-04-2013, 09:33 PM
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Every time on the one of my units that's affected.
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post #54 of 55 Old 09-05-2013, 08:46 AM
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Every time on the one of my units that's affected.

I find it quite particular that it only effects one of them. Looks to be a QA/QC issue with the hardware if that is the case as there appears to be inconsistency.

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post #55 of 55 Old 09-05-2013, 09:29 AM
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I think that is core issue. But not necessary a QC issue but could rather a hardware design issue. Who knows. Remember a lot of Echos arrived DOA and need to perform recovery task while others are just fine. My first one (beta) arrived DOA and didn't even have any network connection at all. So a recovery is not possible. My replacement (has to pay my own shipping cost to get the RMA BTW) works fine and never required any recovery.
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