Why the hell does Anime look SO good using VLC player???!! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Ok, sounds good. I do remember that a long time ago I asked whether it would be possible for the Radiance to automatically switch between 24Hz and 60Hz output, depending on whether the deinterlacer thought the source material to be film or video. The answer was that it wouldn't work well because sometimes film mode detection would switch on/off from one frame to the next and it wouldn't be a good idea to have the output refresh rate change back and forth all the time. I had then suggested to default to video/60Hz and only switch to 24Hz when film mode was detected for more than 10 seconds without breaks. But my suggestions weren't implemented back then. I somehow doubt anything like that is implemented today, but I could be wrong. FWIW, madVR doesn't do that yet, either, but at some point in the future it will.

Yeah, seems like it works the same now. I think the only auto switching it will do today is when you feed it a 24Hz input signal. But beyond that you can configure about any input resolution/rate to any output resolution/rate.
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I'm pretty sure that the 3dlut is truely 9x9x9. Of course the FPGA will interpolate the 9x9x9, so that it covers all possible pixel values, either by using trilinear interpolation, or some similar algorithm. The eeColor does the same with the 65x65x65 3dlut and madVR with the 256x256x256 3dlut.

Is there any practical difference between a 9x9x9 lut with interpolation and a 256x256x256 lut if only 9x9x9 measurements are taken (aside from differences in interpolation algorithm)? I was thinking it was all down to performance, it's quicker to look up a value in a LUT than compute one, though with an FPGA that performance benefit probably largely disappears.

I think the eeColor box is a little different since it does more than just a CMS, it's claim to fame is "converting" one colorspace (eg BT.709) to another (eg LED native) without mucking with colors like skin tones so it needs a lot more points in the lut so the nonlinear transformation can be represented.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #62 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Is there any practical difference between a 9x9x9 lut with interpolation and a 256x256x256 lut if only 9x9x9 measurements are taken (aside from differences in interpolation algorithm)? I was thinking it was all down to performance, it's quicker to look up a value in a LUT than compute one, though with an FPGA that performance benefit probably largely disappears.

Well, when doing 9x9x9 measurements there should not be much of a difference between a 9x9x9 and a 256x256x256 3dlut. Maybe a small difference because if you do the interpolation offline you may be able to use a higher quality interpolation algorithm than when interpolating in real time.

The better solution would be to do more than 9x9x9 measurements. E.g. ArgyllCMS in "ultra quality" mode measures and afterwards refines the grayscale at 128 measurement points, IIRC. The refinement is repeated until a certain error threshold is met. Afterwards it does several thousand color measurements spread over the 3D color space in such a way to maximize usefulness for human perception. In the final step ArgyllCMS converts all this information into a big 3dlut.

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I think the eeColor box is a little different since it does more than just a CMS, it's claim to fame is "converting" one colorspace (eg BT.709) to another (eg LED native) without mucking with colors like skin tones so it needs a lot more points in the lut so the nonlinear transformation can be represented.

That is exactly the purpose of a 3dlut: Making a display conform to a specific target colorspace. The usefulness of this is not limited to LED projectors. There are many other display types which have a non-linear behaviour, too. There's also the problem with the gamma response. Ok, the Radiance has separate controls for that. With a 3dlut as big as that used by the eeColor and madVR, you can do color and gamma corrections in one step in the 3dlut. When using a 5x5x5 or 9x9x9 3dlut, you have to do gamma corrections separately. Of course that works, too, but taking more measurements and correcting everything via 3dlut seems a more complete solution to me...
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post #63 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

The better solution would be to do more than 9x9x9 measurements. E.g. ArgyllCMS in "ultra quality" mode measures and afterwards refines the grayscale at 128 measurement points, IIRC. The refinement is repeated until a certain error threshold is met. Afterwards it does several thousand color measurements spread over the 3D color space in such a way to maximize usefulness for human perception. In the final step ArgyllCMS converts all this information into a big 3dlut.

I can definitely see the benefit of more measurements, though that's of course a case of dramatically increased time/effort vs diminishing returns.
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That is exactly the purpose of a 3dlut: Making a display conform to a specific target colorspace. The usefulness of this is not limited to LED projectors. There are many other display types which have a non-linear behaviour, too. There's also the problem with the gamma response. Ok, the Radiance has separate controls for that. With a 3dlut as big as that used by the eeColor and madVR, you can do color and gamma corrections in one step in the 3dlut. When using a 5x5x5 or 9x9x9 3dlut, you have to do gamma corrections separately. Of course that works, too, but taking more measurements and correcting everything via 3dlut seems a more complete solution to me...

Well that's not really what I meant, normally you use a CMS to map input values to calibrate to a known standard, eeColor's claim to fame is, well a few things, one of the first uses was with the TruVue Vango LED projector. That projector (like most projectors) had a huge gamut, way larger than BT.709, the eeColor box would map a BT.709 source to use that full, native LED gamut, stretching the gamut, but in such a way that things like skin tones/grass/etc aren't affected (don't look wrong). Vs without the eeColor box where you'd have the same output gamut, but you'd have skin tones stretched too red for example.

It also would do things like "compensate" for poor room lighting conditions.

Of course the value of those options is debatable, but do do that you need more than 9 points to "protect" what they call "memory colors".

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #64 of 69 Old 09-30-2013, 08:33 AM
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I compared VLC on one monitor to MadVR on MPC-HC on another and I can't say VLC impressed me much. It looked ok- but hardly special. I tried a few different movies too, and the results are generally the same. MadVR is better on DVD MKV's for sure. On 720P TV is was less noticeable. Hardly scientific, but it was good enough for me.

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post #65 of 69 Old 10-03-2013, 12:39 PM
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VLC FTW!
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post #66 of 69 Old 10-04-2013, 06:10 AM
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VLC FTW!

Do you mean 'f**k the world'?biggrin.gif
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post #67 of 69 Old 10-04-2013, 06:35 AM
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I am not seeing the VLC thing. I admit I use it often, and it's a really good player. But it's benefits are decidedly and clearly it's ability to play almost anything without much fuss, even some trouble files that other players like XBMC, WMC, and others might struggle with. Second I see is that it's generally very easy to set up- it just works. For noobs, this is super attractive.

But on the Picture Quality and Sound Quality side of things it's clearly lacking. It does not have the best Picture. It does not have the best Sound. It can't do high resolution HD audio (like those that accompany most BR MKV rips) so you get stuck using the "core" of DTS or DD- which is not as good. As far as picture- it clearly lacks compared to a direct show player- or something like MPC-HC all modded out with MadVR and reclock.

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post #68 of 69 Old 10-06-2013, 09:05 AM
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VLC is good for those of us who are lazy - I tried SVP before and to me it is just too much work to get the whole thing going. Back to VLC.

Also, will honestly admit that I have a decent HT setup (Marantz SR7005 and Energy Connoisseur speakers - not high end but not absolute garbage, either) and I can't hear difference between lossless and lossy movie soundtracks.
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post #69 of 69 Old 10-07-2013, 12:29 PM
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True VLC is simple and usually just works for people that are lazy.... But it's not better. It's just easier.

SVP frame interpolation is different than MadVR upscaling.

MadVR > VLC

SVP is just a totally different thing (that works well on animation)

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