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Old 10-01-2013, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Asrock Z87 Extreme4 + Haswell Pentium g3220
is this a good choice for windows 7 and flexraid
i need 8 sata ports as i have 7 hard drives at present
and also it has an intel nic
i think the g3220 supports 1333mhz ram but the board supports alot more
is there any benefit in using 2400mhz ram compaired to 1333mhz
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:59 PM
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google came up with an interesting answer without reinventing the wheal
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/310230-30-ddr3-2400-ddr3-1333
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:32 AM
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I would get a H87 board. There are cheaper H87 boards with 8 SATA ports.

Faster RAM won't really make much of a difference in a media server.
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amarshonarbangla View Post

I would get a H87 board. There are cheaper H87 boards with 8 SATA ports.

Faster RAM won't really make much of a difference in a media server.

i cant find a h87 board anywhere, with 8 sata ports and intel nic, i seen some with 6 ports and intel nic
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:54 AM
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Why do you need 8 ports? Will you add a SATA card?

I used a Extreme3 Asrock in my server (6 ports) and I filled all 20 bays of my Norco 4220 server case. (8+8+4)

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Old 10-02-2013, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Why do you need 8 ports? Will you add a SATA card?

I used a Extreme3 Asrock in my server (6 ports) and I filled all 20 bays of my Norco 4220 server case. (8+8+4)

7 hard drives + ssd, i was planning to just use a haswell compatable board with 8 sata ports rather than adding more cost with extra cards
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:40 AM
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Ok then.. you probably want the extreme 4

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Old 10-06-2013, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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i was just looking at ivy bridge options, ASRock H77 Pro4/MVP, the board has 8 sata ports. paired with a pentium g2120 and some 1600mhz could be a good option for flexraid server.
the board doesnt have intel nic but im sure i can install and intel nic at a later date. there will be no transcoding done, just for dishing out 1080p content to the htpc. does the ASRock H77 Pro4/MVP + pentium g2120 support 4tb drives
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:59 AM
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Yes they will support 4TB drives but you might want to question yourself.

First,

I would rather be on the modern socket 1150 (it's more efficient, and you can transplant or upgrade a CPU in future for much longer ) You might not do transcoding now, but with the growing popularity of stuff like mediabrowser 3 and PLEX offering transcoding for tablets, laptops and smartphones, and also server your media up over the internet so you can watch TV or a movie when you are away might end up being something you want to do- and you might decide $50 more for a higher CPU and 5 seconds to install it makes sense. Socket 1150 is better for that, as when a socket dies like 1155 prices actually go up, not down.

Second,

The socket 1150 Asrock has Intel LAN, and if you add a NIC card you might as well have just spent the extra LAN NIC costs on the better platform in the first place. Even if you save $25 going with socket 1155 you end up giving it right back in purchasing an Intel NIC card.

Third.

4TB drives suck for Flexraid. They take way to long to run parity. They are slower than 3TB drives and they cost more- and hold more. All bad things. (I know, I know.. hear me out)

First,

Cost per TB is cheaper on 3TB drives (usually) with deals on the 3TB Seagate 7200.14 running under $100 each sometimes.

Second,

Even the sorta fast Seagate 4TB drives are slower (5900rpm) than the 7200.14 so they are going to take longer to do parity. Speed matters in a FLEXRAID server because you don't want it running parity updates for 12-24 hours or more (I don't anyways)
Using a slower 4TB drive like a WD or a HITACHI at 5400rpm would be HORRIBLE IMO.

Third,

Your parity is going to take as long as it takes to read all the data from your slowest drive. So if your drive holds another 1TB of data and reads and writes a bit slower- it's going to take a lot longer !!! For that reason 4Tb drives really are not what you want with Flexraid or software RAID IMO. You are better off with a couple more drives that are smaller and faster (and cheaper). It makes all things easier- including if a drive fails too.
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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cheers for that tutorial Mfusick, its a learning curve to me, but the things u have mentioned make perfect sense
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Yes they will support 4TB drives but you might want to question yourself.

First,

I would rather be on the modern socket 1150 (it's more efficient, and you can transplant or upgrade a CPU in future for much longer ) You might not do transcoding now, but with the growing popularity of stuff like mediabrowser 3 and PLEX offering transcoding for tablets, laptops and smartphones, and also server your media up over the internet so you can watch TV or a movie when you are away might end up being something you want to do- and you might decide $50 more for a higher CPU and 5 seconds to install it makes sense. Socket 1150 is better for that, as when a socket dies like 1155 prices actually go up, not down.

Second,

The socket 1150 Asrock has Intel LAN, and if you add a NIC card you might as well have just spent the extra LAN NIC costs on the better platform in the first place. Even if you save $25 going with socket 1155 you end up giving it right back in purchasing an Intel NIC card.

Third.

4TB drives suck for Flexraid. They take way to long to run parity. They are slower than 3TB drives and they cost more- and hold more. All bad things. (I know, I know.. hear me out)

First,

Cost per TB is cheaper on 3TB drives (usually) with deals on the 3TB Seagate 7200.14 running under $100 each sometimes.

Second,

Even the sorta fast Seagate 4TB drives are slower (5900rpm) than the 7200.14 so they are going to take longer to do parity. Speed matters in a FLEXRAID server because you don't want it running parity updates for 12-24 hours or more (I don't anyways)
Using a slower 4TB drive like a WD or a HITACHI at 5400rpm would be HORRIBLE IMO.

Third,

Your parity is going to take as long as it takes to read all the data from your slowest drive. So if your drive holds another 1TB of data and reads and writes a bit slower- it's going to take a lot longer !!! For that reason 4Tb drives really are not what you want with Flexraid or software RAID IMO. You are better off with a couple more drives that are smaller and faster (and cheaper). It makes all things easier- including if a drive fails too.

Why do you continue to talk about speed when compiling your parity drive? Who cares?

Let's take this example --- if the OP plans on using his server for 5 years (1825 days) it might take him 1 more day (at most) to compute the parity drive. Other than that he will notice absolutely NO difference day to day. Movies won't play better, music won't sound better, programs won't run better, etc. He will lose 1/1825th of the time using his server at the expense of you recommending to him a slightly faster drive on that 1 singular day. If the OP wants to maximize his storage then get the biggest drive he/she can afford as there is absolutely no difference in playback using a 5400, 5900, 7200 or even SSD when used for movies and playback. All are plenty fast for playback multiple times over and anything else that gets spewed out on the internet is just FUD or ignorance.

I have pointed this out numerous times but I guess I will need to keep doing this.
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:30 PM
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I would rather be on the modern socket 1150 (it's more efficient, and you can transplant or upgrade a CPU in future for much longer )

Sure. Until Intel switches sockets again in 6 months wink.gif
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:25 AM
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Why do you continue to talk about speed when compiling your parity drive? Who cares?

Let's take this example --- if the OP plans on using his server for 5 years (1825 days) it might take him 1 more day (at most) to compute the parity drive. Other than that he will notice absolutely NO difference day to day. Movies won't play better, music won't sound better, programs won't run better, etc. He will lose 1/1825th of the time using his server at the expense of you recommending to him a slightly faster drive on that 1 singular day. If the OP wants to maximize his storage then get the biggest drive he/she can afford as there is absolutely no difference in playback using a 5400, 5900, 7200 or even SSD when used for movies and playback. All are plenty fast for playback multiple times over and anything else that gets spewed out on the internet is just FUD or ignorance.

I have pointed this out numerous times but I guess I will need to keep doing this.

First,
Your math is way wrong so that certainly doesn't help your case.

Secondly,
Speed does matter. The only two things that really matter in determining the time for parity or software RAID processes are HDD speed and capacity.

Third,
My explanation to him is based mostly on 4TB drive size being tied to being also slower . There is a noteworthy cumulative effect, and neither on its own is as undesirable as both together.

The time it takes to process an extra TB of data is significant. Slowing down reads or writes across the entire amount if data is also significant. Combining both is very undesirable when you can buy 3TB drives cheaper. You get better and cheaper - both good.

Software RAID is better when your HDDs are not monster sized or very slow IMO.

I understand your point in saying it would work but my question is would it work better ? If not then is it really worth possibly spending more $ on ?

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Old 10-07-2013, 06:31 AM
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First,
Your math is way wrong so that certainly doesn't help your case.

Secondly,
Speed does matter. The only two things that really matter in determining the time for parity or software RAID processes are HDD speed and capacity.

Third,
My explanation to him is based mostly on 4TB drive size being tied to being also slower . There is a noteworthy cumulative effect, and neither on its own is as undesirable as both together.

The time it takes to process an extra TB of data is significant. Slowing down reads or writes across the entire amount if data is also significant. Combining both is very undesirable when you can buy 3TB drives cheaper. You get better and cheaper - both good.

Software RAID is better when your HDDs are not monster sized or very slow IMO.

I understand your point in saying it would work but my question is would it work better ? If not then is it really worth possibly spending more $ on ?

How is my math wrong?

No, your way will not "work better". After the parity run they will playback media the exact same. If he wants to update, validate, verify he just needs to do it at 1 AM and it will be finished by morning. The same if he wants to move large amounts of data across his network for some reason.

Again, I don't know why you continue to tout performance when referencing parity because it really does not matter.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:39 AM
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If he had 4TB drives and did parity it would NOT be done by morning.

Again your math is wrong.

Feel free to post how you are determine this and I'll be happy to show you where the error is.

If you are just saying that as a guess with little thought and no math then obviously we know why it's wrong.

Perhaps your 2TB drives might be the case, but not 4TB drives.

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Old 10-07-2013, 06:48 AM
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Btw,

For clarity my point was 4TB drives in flexraid make it a 12+ hour process, while a faster 3TB can cut time 40% or more which might actually get done by morning.

Super big drives stress software RAID unnecessarily , and your system. They take a long time and they are slower. Sometimes they cost more. If you have room for enough drives you are often better with 3TB (or even 2TB ).

Restore or swap out a drive and basically everything maintenance related processes benefit. When your server is busy for 12+ hours often that's not too good IMO.

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Old 10-07-2013, 07:00 AM
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Btw,

Super big drives stress software RAID unnecessarily , and your system.

Restore or swap out a drive and basically everything maintenance related processes benefit. When your server is busy for 12+ hours often that's not too good IMO

What? What is a "Super big drive?" Is that what 2TB were a few years ago? Or 3TB last year?

Please post references or proof of this (I know you have none as usual)

This is just poor advice based on absolutely nothing but your own bias. Again, its a bunch of FUD.

Even if it takes 2 Days ( eek.gif ) longer so what? That is 2/1825.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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ive a fractal define r3 case which holds 8 drives, ive 5 x 2tb and 2 x 1.5tb at the minute. id like to move to 4tb drives for space. i honestly don't think i will expand further than what my case will hold.
the drives are just for holding movies and tv shows. aslong as i get good performance when streaming to my htpc and the data on them is relatively safe using flexraid i will be happy enough
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:58 AM
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ive a fractal define r3 case which holds 8 drives, ive 5 x 2tb and 2 x 1.5tb at the minute. id like to move to 4tb drives for space. i honestly don't think i will expand further than what my case will hold.
the drives are just for holding movies and tv shows. aslong as i get good performance when streaming to my htpc and the data on them is relatively safe using flexraid i will be happy enough

4tb will work perfectly for your goals.

Don't let a "super big" myth scare you away that they won't.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:59 AM
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What? What is a "Super big drive?" Is that what 2TB were a few years ago? Or 3TB last year?

Please post references or proof of this (I know you have none as usual)

This is just poor advice based on absolutely nothing but your own bias. Again, its a bunch of FUD.

Even if it takes 2 Days ( eek.gif ) longer so what? That is 2/1825.

As someone who has first hand expierence i want to weigh in.

If i am doing a verify on my setup it takes over 12 hrs just an fyi, so if i start at 1 am, It really isnt usable until 1 pm.... Having faster drives would speed this up and i would enjoy it alot more.

My slowest drive is a 2tb green, my parity drive( for now) is a 3tb green.

I have 15tb of total storage with 4 tb free space between 11 drives i believe. I can take pictures and post screen shots, but as my 48 bay server grows i can only say this time will get longer and more combersome. Evenetually i see this taking an entire weekend, and that should be done once a month.... Now i am not saying i won't buy 4tb drives, but i will buy them when they are quicker than what they are now.

I agree with MFusick, if the drives are faster AND cheaper buy those, now and when the technology is better later than buy the bigger drives than, the whole reason for me personally doing software raid was that i could grow as time went on, i wasn't locked into buying all the same drives.
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:55 AM
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What? What is a "Super big drive?" Is that what 2TB were a few years ago? Or 3TB last year?

Please post references or proof of this (I know you have none as usual)

This is just poor advice based on absolutely nothing but your own bias. Again, its a bunch of FUD.

Even if it takes 2 Days ( eek.gif ) longer so what? That is 2/1825.

It's basic math. I am not sure why you don't get the point.

You pick the independent review site benchmark and the model 4TB you suggest if you disagree with my numbers. I'll be happy to re-do this. Otherwise here is my best guestimate

3TB 7200rpm average read/write 160MB/sec
4TB 5200rpm/5900rpm read/write 130MB/sec

4TB = 4194304 MB
3TB = 3145728 MB

4194304 divided by 130MB/sec = 32264 divided by 60 = 538 divided by 60 = 8.9 hours (this assumed a full speed average read of 130MB sec over entire 4TB which is somewhat optimistic IMO and unlikely - I believe real world would see at least an extra hour but I am trying to be conservative )

that's basically 9 hours theoretical (again probably 10+ hours real world , and I'd expect a full 4TB to take 12+ actually in many cases)

3145728 divided by 160MB/sec = 19660 divided by 60 = 327 minutes divided by 60 = 5.46 hours. (again this is theoretical and you could expect this to take an additional couple hours if not ideal real world scenario)

5 hours 45minutes means that if you start at 2am like you claim you are done at 7:45AM (this is what I do basically, but I start it at 1am, and sometimes mine is going around 8am in the morning and have 3TB drives which is why I say add some time real world)

If you started at 2am and it took 9/10/11/12++++ hours you are well into the next afternoon or evening.

I used pretty fast HDD speeds in my theoretical scenario so it's likely a person's real world results could be less ideal, which makes my case stronger- and yours weaker IMO.

As for the comment about additional stress- that is potentially extra hours of time all of your hard drives are running at full speed. Not just one hard drive, but every hard drive. Not just for a brief moment- but for hours and hours. That's more electricity, heat and noise. If you don't consider this stressful for your system I don't know what else would be considered stressful. All of your hard drives running at full speed at the same time for hours is very stressful IMO.

There is nothing wrong with using a 4TB drive, and if you are limited in drive bays or HDD space that is likely a worthy trade off you make for the extra capacity. My only point was bigger might not always be better. I have long comtemplated upgrading my parity and adding some 4TB drives but I still have not found deals on the 4TB as good as the 3TB drives, and when I factor in the extra time of a bigger drive it just does not seem worth it to me. Then again, I have a 20 bay case so I am not limited. Each person's own choice is unique and I am not saying it's wrong to choose 4TB drives, it makes sense if you need them. I was just offering my opinion, as it seems the automatically rally to 4TB drives these days does not consider some of the things I have found to be true from personal experience with software raid like FLexraid.

I think flexraid is better with more smaller drives. It just cuts down on the time to do everything. Just imagine swapping out a 4TB drive that failed. That's going to take a LONG TIME. eek.gif

It's just my opinion and advice. Do with it as you wish. I never intended it to be anything more than that, but please don't accuse me of lacking data or facts. I'd love to see your data or facts from your perspective. I provided sufficient explanation of my feelings and why. I don't care how you manipulate the data you can't change the fact that 1TB more at a slower speed is going to take longer. It's beyond common sense.

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Old 10-07-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by davidtt485 View Post

As someone who has first hand expierence i want to weigh in.

If i am doing a verify on my setup it takes over 12 hrs just an fyi, so if i start at 1 am, It really isnt usable until 1 pm.... Having faster drives would speed this up and i would enjoy it alot more.

My slowest drive is a 2tb green, my parity drive( for now) is a 3tb green.

I have 15tb of total storage with 4 tb free space between 11 drives i believe. I can take pictures and post screen shots, but as my 48 bay server grows i can only say this time will get longer and more combersome. Evenetually i see this taking an entire weekend, and that should be done once a month.... Now i am not saying i won't buy 4tb drives, but i will buy them when they are quicker than what they are now.

I agree with MFusick, if the drives are faster AND cheaper buy those, now and when the technology is better later than buy the bigger drives than, the whole reason for me personally doing software raid was that i could grow as time went on, i wasn't locked into buying all the same drives.

Why would it take an entire weekend once a month?

That simply is not true. It may take 1 additional day once. That's it. Otherwise run it in the background at night. Even during a validate/verify update your server is still 100% usable.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:09 PM
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you are well into the next afternoon or evening.

Again, who cares? You do this one time. So you would really purchase a smaller drive and have less data storage capacity based on this one day? I just don't get it.
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As for the comment about additional stress- that is potentially extra hours of time all of your hard drives are running at full speed. Not just one hard drive, but every hard drive. Not just for a brief moment- but for hours and hours. That's more electricity, heat and noise. If you don't consider this stressful for your system I don't know what else would be considered stressful. All of your hard drives running at full speed at the same time for hours is very stressful IMO.

It's beyond common sense.

Baloney. So 12-24 hours of your drives running at "full speed" will greatly reduce the lifespan of your drives? That's the most absurd thing I have ever heard. And how do you know that all of your hard drives are running at "full speed" during the entire parity computation? The bottom line is that you have no idea if they are or aren't.

This along with your newly coined term "super big drives" is quite amusing.

BTW --- Your math is wrong. And since you are using 3TB drives you need to add their extra heat and power consumption to your equation because you are going to need more physical drives for the same amount of data stored.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:23 PM
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BTW I just realized you showed only a 3.5 hour superiority which makes this that much more of a completely ridiculous argument. I'm done with this. OP do what you want but know that you are receiving some advice that makes little to no sense with how you are using your server for media playback.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:26 PM
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Why would it take an entire weekend once a month?

That simply is not true. It may take 1 additional day once. That's it. Otherwise run it in the background at night. Even during a validate/verify update your server is still 100% usable.

It would take it every time you run parity. Every month. Each time. Every time you restore or swap out a drive it would also matter. Or ever added a drive with data on it. Or ever removed a drive... Or... or... you get the point right?

It matters. (to me)

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

BTW I just realized you showed only a 3.5 hour superiority which makes this that much more of a completely ridiculous argument. I'm done with this. OP do what you want but know that you are receiving some advice that makes little to no sense with how you are using your server for media playback.

I am not wrong in anything I said.

If you disagree that 3.5 hours (can we call it 4 hours? ) or more doesn't matter then we just disagree. We should agree to disagree and move on.

I think most owners of Flexraid realize it matters (it does to me ) because two reasons: First- it actually usually takes longer than "theoretical" I used to explain so it actually matters more. Second- Most simply do not want their server offline or unavailable for extended periods of time.

If you don't mind your server being off line or a full parity update or restore a drive taking 12 hours that cool with me. But it's ridiculous for you to pretend it does not matter to others because it clearly does. Each their own.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Why would it take an entire weekend once a month?

That simply is not true. It may take 1 additional day once. That's it. Otherwise run it in the background at night. Even during a validate/verify update your server is still 100% usable.


the more data you have the longer the verify takes, me having 48 bays when they are filled will mean i am over 120TB roughly.... I have nothing to prove to anyone so this will be my last post on the subject, but i can tell you that while the unit is repairing a dead driver or doing a full on verify you do not want to use it, because if it modifies a file than the whole thing is wrong... Either way you build yours the way you want, what i offered is real life experience. this guys server may never reach the size mine will, but saying a slow drive wont make a difference is wrong, and it most certainly makes a difference to me.
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by davidtt485 View Post

the more data you have the longer the verify takes, me having 48 bays when they are filled will mean i am over 120TB roughly.... I have nothing to prove to anyone so this will be my last post on the subject, but i can tell you that while the unit is repairing a dead driver or doing a full on verify you do not want to use it, because if it modifies a file than the whole thing is wrong... Either way you build yours the way you want, what i offered is real life experience. this guys server may never reach the size mine will, but saying a slow drive wont make a difference is wrong, and it most certainly makes a difference to me.

Well said biggrin.gif

Quick point: You said "the more data you have the longer the verify takes, me having 48 bays when they are filled will mean i am over 120TB roughly" but keep in mind Flexraid reads from all your drives at the same time, not one after the other. That means the time is not increased by the number of drives, rather it is increased by how big they are or how slow they read.

If you have 12 3TB drives, or you have 24 3TB drives assuming all the drives are the same there would be very little difference in the time it takes, it should take aprox the same time for both systems. What slows things down is when you have a big slow drive - because the speed is determined by the slowest drive. When you run your update there is the speed listed on the bottom right window of the update window, that should give you a good idea what is happening. I know when I removed my 3TB Green and 2TB greens it got quite a bit faster (2 hours saved).

You clearly "get it" biggrin.gif Assassin just disagree's it's not a big deal, but that is a different argument than saying I am wrong, or speed does not matter or HDD size does not matter. Clearly both speed and HDD size do matter in regards to the time factor it takes; each person can decide individually if they care about it or not. I think we both do care, and perhaps he does not. I can't fault him for not caring I guess smile.gif

For me my update always runs on Saturday night.... and it's running on Sunday morning when i drink my coffee and surf online. It sucks when I have to "wait" and often my wife tries to watch something while she cleans and yells "is the server not working ?" It's about once a month this happens to me so yeah I do care tongue.gif My wife is cute, she has no clue about any of this stuff. She really does not even know what a server is. All she knows is that is what we call it and when it doesn't work she can't use the HTPC biggrin.gif We are nearly 80% HTPC and 20% broadcast at this point and as my media collection grows and TV shows grow that trend continues.

She loves to wait until a series is over, or deep into it to begin watching it. She loves stuff like Survivor or big brother but she likes to watch them all quickly, not wait each week. So I tuck them away on the server for her when she is ready. Watching TV series this way is the best !!!!

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks for all the information. i respect all your replies and love reading and gaining knowledge about this.
when flexraid is doing parity, validate or verify, does it reading all the drives at the same time
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:28 PM
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Yup all drives same time

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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