What is the legality and morality of a private community shared cloud based video library ? Anyone interested ? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 207 Old 12-10-2013, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by EricN View Post

"Robbing the copyright holder of the revenue"? If I divert some of my entertainment budget to splurge on a restaurant, have I robbed copyright holders of the revenue they would have gained had I purchased discs instead? Your argument is weak.

Only if you watch the movie in violation of the copyright, such as from the OP's theoretical cloud. The implication is that you wanted to see this movie and therefore you should have paid for the viewing (commercial streaming service, disc, etc). By not paying you caused lost revenue for the copyright owner. You sneaked into the theater without paying.
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post #182 of 207 Old 12-10-2013, 11:30 PM
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I don't think studios worry much about the small percentage of people that will never pay for anything ever no matter what because that is how they are.

The problem is that is not a small number. Most 30+ adults grew up before digital media became a reality. That's us. smile.gif

But growing up now is an entire GENERATION of kids who have no idea that movies and music are not free. They honestly believe it is okay to just grab it off the internet.

We maintain a zero tolerance with our kids. No pirated content is allowed. I think we have gotten them to understand. But it scares me when I see how their friends have no clue. We go for dinner at some friends' house and all the kids are watching movies and there is not a single legit copy in the house.
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post #183 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by politby View Post

Only if you watch the movie in violation of the copyright, such as from the OP's theoretical cloud. The implication is that you wanted to see this movie and therefore you should have paid for the viewing (commercial streaming service, disc, etc). By not paying you caused lost revenue for the copyright owner. You sneaked into the theater without paying.

A homeless man, without means, sneaks unnoticed into an independent movie theater, (a larceny by theft of services from the theater owner)

How much has he injured the copyright holder? How much are the damages, according to your "lost revenue" theory? How does the damage calculus change if he had a dollar in his pocket at the time? Fifty dollars? The "lost-revenue" argument tries to leap from A) "he shouldn't have seen the movie if he didn't have the money" to B) "if he saw the movie, he should have had money, so therefore the copyright holders should get the money that he should have had". It relies on allocating money that never existed, and it fails.


Also the phrase, "watch things in violation of the copyright" is meaningless, just like "purchase things in violation of the trademark", or "disassemble things in violation of the patent". Copyright pertains to the distribution and duplication of content, not the consumption.
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post #184 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by politby View Post

But growing up now is an entire GENERATION of kids who have no idea that movies and music are not free. They honestly believe it is okay to just grab it off the internet.

I'm more disturbed by an entire GENERATION of parents who have no idea that movies and music should eventually be free. They honestly believe it is okay for copyrights to last indefinitely.
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post #185 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 03:09 AM
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I never said it should necessarily last indefinitely. It currently lasts as long as the law stipulates, and we should obey the law.
I suggest time and effort is better spent on pushing lawmakers to change the laws to your liking, rather than inventing justification to circumvent copyright just because you don't like it.
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post #186 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by EricN View Post

I'm more disturbed by an entire GENERATION of parents who have no idea that movies and music should eventually be free. They honestly believe it is okay for copyrights to last indefinitely.

Okay, so let's assume you start a business and create some IP. Who decides when the ownership of that IP "should" no longer be yours. The government? The Pirate Bay?

I work in the software industry. It has a decent tradition of turning certain IP over to open source. As far as I know this is entirely without any laws or government intervention. The owner of the IP simply decides to do it. But it's at the owner's discretion.

I'm all for free everything. But as long as something is not free, I don't take it.
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post #187 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by politby View Post

The problem is that is not a small number. Most 30+ adults grew up before digital media became a reality. That's us. smile.gif

But growing up now is an entire GENERATION of kids who have no idea that movies and music are not free. They honestly believe it is okay to just grab it off the internet.

In the 60's and 70's people recorded radio and albums to reel to reel.
In the 80 and 90's people recorded albums to cassette.
In the late 90's and on people recorded to CD's and downloaded music.
Since the invention of the VCR, people have copied tapes.
As soon as DVD Burners and media became affordable, people copied DVD's.
As soon as hard drive space became cheap, people copied BR.

The only difference now is that it's easier, that's it. There hasn't been any change in morals, people have either cared to purchase the original or not.
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We maintain a zero tolerance with our kids. No pirated content is allowed. I think we have gotten them to understand. But it scares me when I see how their friends have no clue. We go for dinner at some friends' house and all the kids are watching movies and there is not a single legit copy in the house.
We do the same thing, however I'm absolutely sure that one day I"ll find my son has music and movies he never purchased.
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Okay, so let's assume you start a business and create some IP. Who decides when the ownership of that IP "should" no longer be yours. The government? The Pirate Bay?
This decision has already been by the government. It can be changed if you're willing to put the effort and money necessary into the effort.
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I work in the software industry. It has a decent tradition of turning certain IP over to open source. As far as I know this is entirely without any laws or government intervention. The owner of the IP simply decides to do it. But it's at the owner's discretion.
Most software starts out as either open or not, and most of the closed software simply fades into irrelavance. There's no 'decent tradition' of turning certain IP over to open source. There are a few companies like iD that do open source their code, but I still wouldn't say that doing this is any sort of tradition.
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I'm all for free everything. But as long as something is not free, I don't take it.
I'm certainly not all for free everything. Effort deserves reward.

Looky here!
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post #188 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by EricN View Post

I'm more disturbed by an entire GENERATION of parents who have no idea that movies and music should eventually be free. They honestly believe it is okay for copyrights to last indefinitely.

I guess this is where we differ. I sure do believe they should last forever, or as long as the legal owner is maintaining them. I look at it as property (whether or not thats what the law says or is the intent of the law, thats what I think is "right'). You don't think the deed to your house should expire. But theres homeless people out there who could benefit from using your spare bedroom. How greedy can you be?

If Shakespeare and/or his legal business partner had set up SHAKESPEARE THEATRICAL LICENSCING LLC, and the company was maintainted to this day, I think its only fair they would continue to be compensated for printings and public performances of the work.

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post #189 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by robnix View Post

In the 60's and 70's people recorded radio and albums to reel to reel.
In the 80 and 90's people recorded albums to cassette.
In the late 90's and on people recorded to CD's and downloaded music.
Since the invention of the VCR, people have copied tapes.
As soon as DVD Burners and media became affordable, people copied DVD's.
As soon as hard drive space became cheap, people copied BR.

The only difference now is that it's easier, that's it. There hasn't been any change in morals, people have either cared to purchase the original or not.

In the mid 80s my mom figured out how to wire both our VCRs together to copy tapes we rented. Given that now she can't even figure out how to set the tv to the correct input to watch a VHS tape thats kind of an amazing accomplishment.

Like you said, its a lot easier. Doing that required a bunch more time and effort. Now with a few clicks you could download all the James Bond movies and entire Beatles catalog very quickly.

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post #190 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by robnix View Post

In the 60's and 70's people recorded radio and albums to reel to reel.
In the 80 and 90's people recorded albums to cassette.
In the late 90's and on people recorded to CD's and downloaded music.
Since the invention of the VCR, people have copied tapes.
As soon as DVD Burners and media became affordable, people copied DVD's.
As soon as hard drive space became cheap, people copied BR.

The only difference now is that it's easier, that's it. There hasn't been any change in morals, people have either cared to purchase the original or not.

That's not quite true. Yes, it is easier now than it was in the past, (a point I made earlier) but another key difference (that I suspect has the MPAA and RIAA in more of a twist than they used to be) is the quality of the copies. Recording to tape was a lossy process. Be it reel to reel, cassette, Betamax or VHS, you always ended up with something that was lower quality than the original. That isn't the case now. Now (assuming competency on the part of the "pirate") copies are just as good as the originals. (ironically in some cases an illegally copied version stripped of DRM might actually look better since the DRM can force a downgraded quality on systems lacking an HDCP compliant path, so your hd source will only display in SD.)

Besides "its the law" or "it's unethical" there was a practical reason to avoid bootleg copies... the quality was usually crap. That isn't necessarily the case anymore.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #191 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

If Shakespeare and/or his legal business partner had set up SHAKESPEARE THEATRICAL LICENSCING LLC, and the company was maintainted to this day, I think its only fair they would continue to be compensated for printings and public performances of the work.

"Intellectual property rights aren't free: They're imposed at the expense of future creators and of the public at large. Where would we be if Charles Lindbergh had an exclusive right in the concept of a heroic solo aviator? If Arthur Conan Doyle had gotten a copyright in the idea of the detective story, or Albert Einstein had patented the theory of relativity? If every author and celebrity had been given the right to keep people from mocking them or their work? Surely this would have made the world poorer, not richer, culturally as well as economically.

This is why intellectual property law is full of careful balances between what's set aside for the owner and what's left in the public domain for the rest of us: The relatively short life of patents; the longer, but finite, life of copyrights; copyright's idea-expression dichotomy; the fair use doctrine; the prohibition on copyrighting facts; the compulsory license of television broadcasts and musical compositions; federal preemption of overbroad state intellectual property laws; the nominative use doctrine in trademark law; the right to make soundalike recordings. All of these diminish an intellectual property owner's rights. All let the public use something created by someone else. But all are necessary to maintain a free environment in which creative genius can flourish.

[...]

For better or worse, we are the Court of Appeals for the Hollywood Circuit. Millions of people toil in the shadow of the law we make, and much of their livelihood is made possible by the existence of intellectual property rights. But much of their livelihood - and much of the vibrancy of our culture - also depends on the existence of other intangible rights: The right to draw ideas from a rich and varied public domain, and the right to mock, for profit as well as fun, the cultural icons of our time."

--Alex Kozinski, Chief Judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
"The White Dissent" 989 F.2d 1512, 1993 U.S. App
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post #192 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 07:40 AM
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That's not quite true. Yes, it is easier now than it was in the past, (a point I made earlier) but another key difference (that I suspect has the MPAA and RIAA in more of a twist than they used to be) is the quality of the copies. Recording to tape was a lossy process. Be it reel to reel, cassette, Betamax or VHS, you always ended up with something that was lower quality than the original. That isn't the case now. Now (assuming competency on the part of the "pirate") copies are just as good as the originals. (ironically in some cases an illegally copied version stripped of DRM might actually look better since the DRM can force a downgraded quality on systems lacking an HDCP compliant path, so your hd source will only display in SD.)

Besides "its the law" or "it's unethical" there was a practical reason to avoid bootleg copies... the quality was usually crap. That isn't necessarily the case anymore.

As with any copying process it depends on the source and target. A cheap turntable paired with a cheap tape deck and bargain basement cassettes made for a lousy copy, but I can promise you that the Technics and Sony gear that we had in our house made tapes that you could hardly distinguish from the source. A modern comparison would be the difference between ripping a CD to flac vs low bitrate mp3. My other argument against quality being a factor is simply the bitrate of most of the media available on torrent sites today. Webrips and compressed blurays aren't on par with their sources either.

Looky here!
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post #193 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 07:52 AM
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So here is something I'd like to know... why is it we as consumers have allowed the music, movie and software industries to get away with return policies that would never fly in any other retail space?

I can return clothes I don't like, food that doesn't taste good, tools I don't need, TV's that don't fit, sheets that are too rough, furniture that isn't comfortable, towels that are too itchy, musical instruments that don't sound good, exercize excersize exersize fitness equipment that I'm not going to use, plywood that was leftover, and any number of other things for any number of other reasons. As long as I have my proof of purchase and the item is in good condition (and in some cases, the condition of the item isn't even relevant) I'm going to get an exchange or a refund.

Try taking "Paul Blart, Mall Cop" back to Best Buy and tell them you want your money back because the movie was terrible. Try getting an exchange for you Justin Bieber CD because that chick can't sing. Try getting a refund at the Holiday Inn Express because the nurses in "Naughty Nurses 17" weren't naughty enough. Try getting a refund on Windows 8.1 because you don't like the way it looks.

There is absolutely zero expectation of customer satisfaction with the actual product you buy from content creators. The only thing they guarantee is the media on which it's delivered. If the bluray won't play or the mp3 won't play or the software dvd can't be read, then you can get a replacement. Don't like the actual product? Tough toenails, there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.
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RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #194 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by robnix View Post

As with any copying process it depends on the source and target. A cheap turntable paired with a cheap tape deck and bargain basement cassettes made for a lousy copy, but I can promise you that the Technics and Sony gear that we had in our house made tapes that you could hardly distinguish from the source. A modern comparison would be the difference between ripping a CD to flac vs low bitrate mp3. My other argument against quality being a factor is simply the bitrate of most of the media available on torrent sites today. Webrips and compressed blurays aren't on par with their sources either.

Yes, and no...Yes, you can make very high quality analog copies. No, it doesn't matter what the source and target is, the copy will always be different from the original. And if you make a copy of the copy, it will be worse still.... copy that and you see where I'm going with this. The mechanism used to copy is irrelevant. It was physically impossible to make an identical copy of an analog recording. Each generation is going to introduce more hiss, more hum, more wow, more flutter. You may not notice in the first few generations but it is there.

It is possible with digital media. I can go 100 generations into a digital copy and still have the exact same file I started out with. Yes the possibility is there to downgrade the quality too, but my point is that it is also possible to do it with no quality loss, which simply isn't an option in the analog world.

Don't get me wrong.. I see what you're saying. Back when it wasn't practical to have a CD player in my car, I used to make recordings of my CDs onto metal bias tapes that sounded superior to the original cassette. But it still wasn't as good as the CD, and if I made a copy of that tape, it still wasn't as good as the original tape and so on.

Yes I realize it does seem a little pedantic to bring up imperceptible differences, but when the discussion is about copyrights and the action in question is copying, those differences do have an impact.

Also... I miss Technics. frown.gif

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post #195 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 09:19 AM
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Also... I miss Technics. frown.gif

I miss the whole process. There was something inherently satisfying in putting an album on.

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post #196 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 09:37 AM
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I miss the whole process. There was something inherently satisfying in putting an album on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu1V3R-Jpwo

There has never been a character in movies, TV or literature, that I related to more than Rob Gordon.

Aside from the Whitney mixtape my greatest to-tape triumph was dragging the HiFi VHS out of the den to my bedroom (where my stereo resided) so I could copy the Delicate Sound of Thunder concert video to audio tape, as it had a few more songs than the audio only version. I even went to the trouble to stop the tape after The Great Gig in the Sky remove it, disassemble it, cut out the remaining tape on the spool, reassemble it and start recording side 2 so that it was a seamless flip from one side to the other. Yeah, it was a lot of work, but I do miss it.

I'm still crossing my fingers and hoping they remaster that show and release it on bluray.

/nostalgia break over.

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post #197 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

So here is something I'd like to know... why is it we as consumers have allowed the music, movie and software industries to get away with return policies that would never fly in any other retail space?

I can return clothes I don't like, food that doesn't taste good, tools I don't need, TV's that don't fit, sheets that are too rough, furniture that isn't comfortable, towels that are too itchy, musical instruments that don't sound good, exercize excersize exersize fitness equipment that I'm not going to use, plywood that was leftover, and any number of other things for any number of other reasons. As long as I have my proof of purchase and the item is in good condition (and in some cases, the condition of the item isn't even relevant) I'm going to get an exchange or a refund.

Try taking "Paul Blart, Mall Cop" back to Best Buy and tell them you want your money back because the movie was terrible. Try getting an exchange for you Justin Bieber CD because that chick can't sing. Try getting a refund at the Holiday Inn Express because the nurses in "Naughty Nurses 17" weren't naughty enough. Try getting a refund on Windows 8.1 because you don't like the way it looks.

There is absolutely zero expectation of customer satisfaction with the actual product you buy from content creators. The only thing they guarantee is the media on which it's delivered. If the bluray won't play or the mp3 won't play or the software dvd can't be read, then you can get a replacement. Don't like the actual product? Tough toenails, there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.

It's because it's all crap. If they allowed returns they'd have no business. wink.gif
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post #198 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 11:02 AM
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Doesn't the OP's original question - a private cloud based system to share media - already exist? It sounds a lot like Plex Media Server and its ability to stream local or cloud based content to remote users. Setting aside the question of how did the encrypted content get removed from its media, what is the legal threshold for a "public" broadcast? If I stream the same movie to two TVs in my house at the same time is that considered a public broadcast? How about if I watch it on a TV and also stream it to my mobile device outside my home? The third option is multiple users outside my home? There are a whole array of options here but it seems that any which include multiple simultaneous streams would be illegal. So the rule is if you own a single copy then you can only play content back on a single device at any one time? Is that correct? I'm guessing it's not that simple but I hope it is.
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post #199 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the major issue is that multiple people can simultaneously watch the same things at different locations. (if I am understanding it)

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #200 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by politby View Post

I never said it should necessarily last indefinitely. It currently lasts as long as the law stipulates, and we should obey the law.
I suggest time and effort is better spent on pushing lawmakers to change the laws to your liking, rather than inventing justification to circumvent copyright just because you don't like it.
The problem is that if you don't have more money than the industry, it wouldn't do a darn bit of good. And I only see things getting worse on the horizon.
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post #201 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 03:37 PM
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The problem is that if you don't have more money than the industry, it wouldn't do a darn bit of good. And I only see things getting worse on the horizon.
If you just try to coax politicians into making more favorable laws, I agree that is probably a losing effort. Best way to enact change is to vote with your wallet. The reason the media companies have all of that money for lobbying is because we've given it to them.

And have they done an "upgrade"to the forum software? It seems to be... different.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #202 of 207 Old 12-11-2013, 04:55 PM
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What I want to know is if I'm buying a license to a work, which is essentially what's going on when you buy a movie, since you're not allowed to copy it, then why can I get the blu-ray for free if I already bought a copy on dvd or vhs? The distributor is basically making all profit because the source was better than the blu-ray and the work has already been created. It's a total sham that you have to keep buying the same movie over and over to get the best quality.
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post #203 of 207 Old 12-12-2013, 07:03 AM
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I only see things getting worse on the horizon.

You're such a pessimist. Congress has always provided us with the best laws money can buy.
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Originally Posted by corpgator View Post

What I want to know is if I'm buying a license to a work, which is essentially what's going on when you buy a movie, since you're not allowed to copy it, then why can I get the blu-ray for free if I already bought a copy on dvd or vhs? The distributor is basically making all profit because the source was better than the blu-ray and the work has already been created. It's a total sham that you have to keep buying the same movie over and over to get the best quality.

You are buying a license to watch the movie via the physical media you received when you purchased the license.
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post #205 of 207 Old 12-13-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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I guess this is where we differ. I sure do believe they should last forever, or as long as the legal owner is maintaining them. I look at it as property (whether or not thats what the law says or is the intent of the law, thats what I think is "right'). You don't think the deed to your house should expire. But theres homeless people out there who could benefit from using your spare bedroom. How greedy can you be?

If Shakespeare and/or his legal business partner had set up SHAKESPEARE THEATRICAL LICENSCING LLC, and the company was maintainted to this day, I think its only fair they would continue to be compensated for printings and public performances of the work.

Agreed. The copyright holder owns the item. Copyright law currently allows the creator to own it for (I think) 120 years from the day of creation of the work. It used to be far less, but people did not live as long back then. This allows someone to create something and then benefit from it for their entire life, and slightly into the lives of their children. They can always release it sooner if they wish. I have no problem with this.
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post #206 of 207 Old 12-13-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Agreed. The copyright holder owns the item. Copyright law currently allows the creator to own it for (I think) 120 years from the day of creation of the work. It used to be far less, but people did not live as long back then. This allows someone to create something and then benefit from it for their entire life, and slightly into the lives of their children. They can always release it sooner if they wish. I have no problem with this.

It depends:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_lengths

Based on publication and creation date:
  • 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation whichever is shorter (anonymous works, pseudonymous works, or works made for hire, published since 1978)[316]
  • 95 years from publication for works published 1964–1977; 28 (if copyright not renewed) or 95 years from publication for works published 1923–1963 (Copyrights prior to 1923 have expired, not including copyrights on sound recordings published prior to Feb 15, 1972, covered only under state laws.)

Based on authors death:
  • Life + 70 years (works published since 1978 or unpublished works)

Looky here!
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post #207 of 207 Old 12-13-2013, 10:14 AM
 
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I figured I was not being exact, but I was close. I think those time frames are fair.
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