So what does Kaveri bring to the table for HTPC? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll be building a new htpc soon, and was leaning towards Richland over Haswell, now Kaveri drops. I use J River for music currently, and WMC for movies, but in this new build I think I'm going to update to the newest J River and run Red October. This utilizes MadVR as I understand it? I'm not familiar with that but I assume any of the top AMD APU's and a midrange Haswell can run that fine? That would be the most stressfull thing this computer does. It appears Kaveri doesn't really step up CPU performance over an equivalent Richland. On the GPU or feature set side, do any of you see any reason for the new Kaveri over Richland for what I'm using it for. Would anyone pick Kaveri of Haswell? I think originally I was leaning towards AMD for what appeared to be better colorspace support and a other couple little things, HDMI handshake was one IIRC. The only other reason I can see using Kaveri for my purposes is it presumably runs cooler on the smaller fab. I would really like to keep the computer silent by using a single quiet CPU fan and no case fans.

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post #2 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 06:48 AM
 
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Kaveri has a much more powerful GPU than Richland. I do not use MadVR, so Richland is plenty for me. I am not sure if the more powerful GPU will do anything for you, though. Its appearance should drop the price of Richland, though.
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post #3 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 07:08 AM
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so what exactly is FM2+ in relation to my FM2/Trinity combo?


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post #4 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 07:17 AM
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I'm kinda curious about this too, have an A6-3500 and I'm trying to decide if it's worth upgrading to Kaveri or Richland (say an a8-6500 or A8-7600)
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post #5 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 07:27 AM
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Slight increase in IPC countered by slower cpu clocks. Generally more gpu cores per apu across the line. Benches at Anand and Techreport but nothing specific to HTPC use. It shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate from renethx's madvr charts by using gpu core count, but most of gains seem to be in TDP. The 45W A8 looks like the overall sweet spot, as the benchmarks don't seem to improve much up the line from there to the A10.
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post #6 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 07:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

so what exactly is FM2+ in relation to my FM2/Trinity combo?

FM2+ is a new socket design, it has backwards compatibility with FM2 CPUs and memory. If you want the new CPU, you must get the new mobo style. The key is that if you want, you can buy a mobo now and then upgrade the chip later, since the mobo will support your FM2 chip. AMD's upgrade path allows leapfrogging. AM3 processors worked in AM2+ sockets, provided your mobo maker created a BIOS update (and most did). If AMD continues its normal way of doing things, the FM3 CPU will work in the FM2+ socket, but that is not a guarantee. Rumor has it they will be completely changing things come AM3.
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post #7 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 08:10 AM
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Any thoughts on how TrueAudio may impact HTPC use?
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post #8 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 08:45 AM
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In the couple of review I've read it seems gaming is the win with Kaveri. So if you want a gaming HTPC it might be a decent choice when Intel + GPU doesn't fit your form factor. No idea if the 23.796Hz issue is fixed in Kaveri like it was in Haswell.

 

 

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post #9 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruiner View Post

Any thoughts on how TrueAudio may impact HTPC use?

 

TrueAudio does not impact HTPC use, as it's more of a gaming thing - basically game developers can utilize AMD TrueAudio APIs to code audio specific stuff within their games.


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post #10 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 12:43 PM
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Νο 4Κ H.264 decoding in hardware for Kaveri.

I wonder when AMD will finally decide to support it.

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post #11 of 45 Old 01-15-2014, 03:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NikosD View Post

Νο 4Κ H.264 decoding in hardware for Kaveri.

I wonder when AMD will finally decide to support it.

Probably when HDMI 2.0 is out and readily available so they can support 60Hz 4k. No sense in doing it half-assed.
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post #12 of 45 Old 01-16-2014, 12:48 AM
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Probably not.
Nice excuse though.

Because HDMI 2.0 is ready as specification by September of 2013 and first motherboards with HDMI 2.0 support will be announced in the next few months.

The 4K H.264 HW support is something not as easy as you can order it now and have it ready in a few months.

Also, if AMD wanted to provide 4K@60 fps HW decoding now and the excuse is the limited HDMI support, AMD could provide a DisplayPort v1.2 which is capable of 4K@60fps.

We have to wait for the next AMD architecture in the next 1 or 2 years to support 4K H.264 HW decoding.

Moreover, we have to say that decoding is something different than displaying.
A lot of people would like to have the ability to decode 4K H.264 in HW and display it to a 1080p monitor.

When the first motherboards appear with HDMI 2.0 support, I predict that the next excuse of AMD will be that 4K is not widely supported and they will provide it through H.264 and H.265, because providing it by H.264 only will be a half-assed service.

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post #13 of 45 Old 01-16-2014, 05:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NikosD View Post

Probably not.
Nice excuse though.

Because HDMI 2.0 is ready as specification by September of 2013 and first motherboards with HDMI 2.0 support will be announced in the next few months.

The test kit to certify devices became available just this month. There aren't any TVs available yet with HDMI 2.0.

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Also, if AMD wanted to provide 4K@60 fps HW decoding now and the excuse is the limited HDMI support, AMD could provide a DisplayPort v1.2 which is capable of 4K@60fps.

Only if they wanted to exclude the United States from their pool of available buyers. Not a smart move for a Canadian company.
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We have to wait for the next AMD architecture in the next 1 or 2 years to support 4K H.264 HW decoding.

Probably, and by then we might have movies that will need it.
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Moreover, we have to say that decoding is something different than displaying.
A lot of people would like to have the ability to decode 4K H.264 in HW and display it to a 1080p monitor.

Why?
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When the first motherboards appear with HDMI 2.0 support, I predict that the next excuse of AMD will be that 4K is not widely supported and they will provide it through H.264 and H.265, because providing it by H.264 only will be a half-assed service.

It would be correct, much like saying that not being able to fly like superman due to the existence of gravity is an excuse. AFAIK, no consumer level vid card maker does H.265 yet - and no humans can fly like superman. This is most likely due to the chip designers (like Broadcom) not having chips available for purchase yet so the vid card makers cannot make their vid cards with them - and gravity.
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post #14 of 45 Old 01-16-2014, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not looking for 4k capability, it isn't mature yet. No TV's with HDMI 2.0. No source material that I can find - and I don't consider "Mastered in 4k" but finalized at 1080P anything other than marketing gibberish. Like DVD upconversion just prior to the launch of an actual high definition source (HD-DVD at the time). And the point about H265 is a good one. It looks to me like 4k sources are going to realistically require H265, the files would be just huge without it. Maybe BD100 discs will be cheap and reliable to read, but I'm not holding my breath, and I'm certainly not going to by a new standalone player just to read a BD100 disc when a year later I'll have to buy another player to decode H265 because every studio will immediately switch to it. But enough about that...

I haven't found Renethex's madvr page yet, but I'm assuming both A10-6800 Richland, A10-7850 Kaveri, and HD4600 Haswell will run it fine? If so my only real concerns are minimizing any HDMI handshake issues (using either Marantz or NAD avr's), no colorspace issues with the TV or projector, that sort of thing. Given that what would you guys suggest for my use?

~Brandon


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post #15 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 12:44 AM
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OK, it's time to be more specific again.

4K H.264 content is available worldwide via the largest video streaming service of the world, which is YouTube of course.
As a matter of fact, the 4K H.264 content is available by the summer of 2010 via YouTube in limited quantities of course.

Of course now in 2014 there are hundreds of 4K H.264 clips in YouTube and other video streaming services, maybe thousands.

Don't expect to find full length movies in 4K H.264 format as long as no BluRay or other specification takes an official form of storing that 4K H.264 movies.

But there are other short-length movies- like TimeScapes, Sintel, Tears of Steel, Big Buck Bunny that exist in 4K H.264 form.

It's meaningless to discuss why someone has to be able to decode such clips/ movies. The reason is because they exist. There are 4K H.264 clips out there, so the most logical thing is the will to decode them!

Is there anything more simple than this ?

Also there is 3D.

When someone tries to playback a 3D file (there are also thousands of them), he has to decode a 3D format encoding in a form of full SBS, or top-bottom etc, which almost all of them are beyond full HD.

The resolutions of 3D files are like 2560x800, 2880x1080, 3840x1080, 1920 x 2160 etc

How are you going to accelerate in HW those 3D resolutions if you are limited in much lower resolutions ?

Moreover NVIDIA introduced in the world their 4K@30fps video processor (VP5) in the first quarter of 2011! This is a good 3 years ago.

Intel gave us their first generation of their 4K@80fps video processor (IvyBridge) in the first quarter of 2012. This is 2 years ago.

And because AMD is not capable of delivering such product, a 4K H.264 video processor - due to financial reasons of course - even in 2014 or maybe 2015, AMD is very capable of finding excuses about that!

And they seem good on this.

One final point:

In the past, to be more exact in Catalyst release notes of Catalyst 10.4 (back in April of 2010), AMD promised full H.264 support up to 4K x 2K for UVD2.2, in their official Catalyst 10.4 release notes.

That was even before YouTube announces 4K support!

So, ATI/ AMD was very proactive in 2010 of paper support of 4K HW decoding and they saw a real need of supporting 4K H.264 HW acceleration but they never implement it in real world!

It's 2014 and after 4 years of their promise of 4K x 2K we are still waiting for AMD to deliver what they promised officially.

Of course it's not the first time that ATI says lies about feature support of their decoding engine.

We are still waiting for MPEG-2 VLD and MPEG-4 ASP support in their UVD2.2 engine which ATI was advertising in their product line for Radeon HD 5000 series, you know...

Anyway, everyone is free to make the choice he wants.

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post #16 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 05:15 AM
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Kaveri brings nothing to HTPC IMO.

I'm simply uninterested until AMD can compete with intel on the CPU front, or they are available for a significant discount and offer a superior value.

I'm not cool with the performance handicap and the higher energy consumption, and heat unless I'm getting it a lot cheaper

Lettuce face reality : even last generation intel or amd chips can do perfectly fine HTPC basic playback.

If you want to game or do something like MadVR you are better off with an intel CPU and dedicated video card

So where does that leave Kaveri ?

It has a place but only on the budget or Low end side of things.

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post #17 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 05:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikosD View Post

OK, it's time to be more specific again.

4K H.264 content is available worldwide via the largest video streaming service of the world, which is YouTube of course.
As a matter of fact, the 4K H.264 content is available by the summer of 2010 via YouTube in limited quantities of course.

Really....youtube? That is your source material? Really?

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Moreover NVIDIA introduced in the world their 4K@30fps video processor (VP5) in the first quarter of 2011! This is a good 3 years ago.

Intel gave us their first generation of their 4K@80fps video processor (IvyBridge) in the first quarter of 2012. This is 2 years ago.

Neither of which is H.265, which was one of your bitches, AMD has done H.264 4K @ 30fps since the 7000 series was launched (possibly before then).
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post #18 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 05:43 AM
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Sources about what ?

What is it that you don't know and don't believe ?

BTW, I'm not more anonymous and more random than you.

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post #19 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 05:44 AM
 
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Sources about what ?

What is it that you don't know and don't believe ?

BTW, I'm not more anonymous and more random than you.

You missed my edit. But yes, you are 100% more anonymous and random then I am, to me (the person who wrote that post). I know who I am but you, you are a random, anonymous person on the Internet to me and apparently I also need to research your claims to find what the truth is, since you post wrong information and claim it to be true.
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post #20 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 05:51 AM
 
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You are quite wrong about AMD not supporting 4k and accelerating other things (Kaveri has a 7000 series GPU in it):

◾Cutting-edge integrated display support ◦DisplayPort 1.2 •Max resolution: 4096x2160 @ 60 Hz per display
•Multi-Stream
•21.6 Gbps bandwidth (HBR2)
•High bit-rate audio
•Quad HD/4K/UHDTV display support
•1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D (Frame Sequential Format)

◦HDMI® (With 4K, 3D, x.v.Color™ and Deep Color) •Max resolution: 4096x2160 @ 30 Hz
•1080p30 Stereoscopic 3D (Packed Frame Format)
•Quad HD/4K/UHDTV video display support

◦HDMI® (With 4K, 3D, Deep Color and x.v.Color™) •Max resolution: 4096x2160
•1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D
•Quad HD/4k video support
http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/7000/7970/Pages/radeon-7970.aspx#3


According to TheGuru3D:

A new videocodec: h265/hevc

Kaveri will support h265/hevc as well. The new video codec is up and coming thanks to the rapid adoption of Ultra HD and thus the sheer need to preserve costly bandwith. Initially we heard that this will be software support rendered over the shader engine ony. High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) is a video compression format and will be a successor to H.264/MPEG-4 AVC (Advanced Video Coding). HEVC is to double the data compression ratio compared to H.264/MPEG-4 AVC at the same level of video quality. It can alternatively be used to provide substantially improved video quality at the same bit rate. It can support 8K UHD and resolutions up to 8192x4320.
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_a8_7600_apu_review,3.html


Seems you need to search harder for things to whine about wrt AMD. I made the mistake of believing you the first time, now I realize I have to research all your claims to find the actual truth.
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post #21 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 05:53 AM
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My point about H.265 was for AMD only, as a possible next excuse about not delivering 4K in the next few months.

The first excuse was no HDMI 4K@60 fps support and the next will be no 4K H.265 maturity.

For Nvidia and Intel I have nothing to say about 4K H.265 because they are already support 4K H.264 and because of that, I'm sure that next generation will include 4K H.265 support for both companies.

For now and for the last couple of years both companies support 4K H.264 and that is more than enough.

About anonymity I really can't follow you.

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post #22 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 05:57 AM
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About 4K and AMD, I think you should read again my posts.

I'm talking about 4K HW acceleration of H.264, about HW decoding of H.264 up to 4K resolution.

Not about 4K decoding in software and 4K display.

I thought you got it from the beginning...

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post #23 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 06:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikosD View Post

My point about H.265 was for AMD only, as a possible next excuse about not delivering 4K in the next few months.

The first excuse was no HDMI 4K@60 fps support and the next will be no 4K H.265 maturity.

For Nvidia and Intel I have nothing to say about 4K H.265 because they are already support 4K H.264 and because of that, I'm sure that next generation will include 4K H.265 support for both companies.

For now and for the last couple of years both companies support 4K H.264 and that is more than enough.

About anonymity I really can't follow you.

Wait - you complain that AMD does not have 4K H.265 but it is fine that Intel and NVidia do not have it? All three companies support 4K H.264.

AIT's UVD is hardware decoding. UVD 2.2 brought H.264 hardware decoding. UVD 4.2 supports 4K hardware decoding. If Guru3D is right (and they often are), it also supports H.265 hardware decoding, something they others do not do but you are fine with them not doing it...
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post #24 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 06:12 AM
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All three companies support 4K H.264.

AIT's UVD is hardware decoding. UVD 2.2 brought H.264 hardware decoding. UVD 4.2 supports 4K hardware decoding. If Guru3D is right (and they often are), it also supports H.265 hardware decoding, something they others do not do but you are fine with them not doing it...

This is definitely not true.
If it was true, I wouldn't complain from the beginning.

UVD 4.2 adds to UVD 3.2 only better handling of errors in video streams.
No HW 4K H.264 for UVD 4.2 and definitely no HW 4K H.265 support.

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post #25 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 06:19 AM
 
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Back to the actual purpose of the thread (which is not to irrationally bash AMD)

I did just find some interesting things people might like about Kaveri:

Apparently, you can select 65W or 45W for the APU (for the 65W APUs, of course) so you can automatically reduce their power usage if you wish.
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_a8_7600_apu_review,4.html

Also, if you transcode, the GPU transcoding is insanely fast, super fast if you use Espresso. I do not transcode, so I do not know the merits of one program over another:

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_a8_7600_apu_review,13.html


Here is their conclusion:

Kaveri is good step forward for AMD, the heterogeneous architecture allows them to have the different segments within the APU to communicate and address each other much better, faster and more efficient. That is in essence what the big achievement of Kaveri entails. It is the first step for AMD's true heterogeneous architecture, a symbiosis of segments like the processor, IGP, memory controller, video engine and so on all merged together. And that brings in efficiency. Kaveri as such is the most powerful APU AMD ever introduced, the focus for AMD however has been everything but not processing performance, and that puzzles me. I've been thinking about this for tdays really, I mean AMD put well over 2 Billion transistors in this APU and that shows in both OpenCL and graphics performance. Kudo's for that. But the actual processing performance of the product is barely a notch faster compared to Trinity and Richland, and I just don't get it anymore. See it's now 2014 and the APU serial processing performance is not even at the performance level of a Phenom II X4 970 from early 2011. AMD on their end claims that actually processing performance is less significant and that the GPU performance as well as OpenCL performance is where they need to be. CPU performance will be compensated once Mantle kicks in, it pretty much sums up AMDs look at things. But even if Mantle would get wise adoption from the software houses, it's not gonna help them at all with generic CPU dependant applications, just with games.

In AMDs defense, we can compare a A8-7600 price wise towards the Intel Core I3 4330 CPU right ? I mean it's the same price. On Intels side you get a much slower IGP and actually only two physical CPU cores. In that perspective the A8 series at the very least seem to be very tempting. But sure, it will be interesting to see how this will pan out on the short term.

The A8-7600 APU as tested today performance roughly at similar performance levels as the previous generation A10-6700 and A10 6800K APUs. We feel that the AMD A8-7600 as tested today is a product for entry-level towards mainstream PCs, it is an excellent solution for HTPCs. The focus on the A8 system and the capabilities will be small form factor PCs for casual gaming, media etc and on that front it definitely excels. The A8-7600 with its optional TDP configuration at 45W might very well be the sweet spot for Kaveri.
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_a8_7600_apu_review,19.html
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post #26 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 06:20 AM
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But still... isn't it early for 4k ? There might be a few people doing it now, but I imagine things are going to change or shakeup before this becomes popular. 4k support is more to have a feather in the cap. And nothing Kaveri does is not available with a dedicated GPU.

Can Kaveri do max level MADVR ? Or can it do max level SVP ? If it can- then it has a serious place in HTPC IMO. If it can not- then what is the point ? For basic playback there isn't much difference and the extra GPU horsepower is wasted.

Kaveri is stuck in no mans land where it's not powerful enough for the high end, it's too expensive to really rule the low end, and the performance is either more than you need for basic playback, or not enough for advanced playback.

I see it stuck in the middle, and probably a good alternative to a Pentium or an i3, offering better graphics and full 3D. As soon as it costs what the core i3/i5/i7 costs it's pointless because the Intel are more powerful and more efficient and there isn't much cost difference. So really Kaveri has a place in low end, and can offer advantage over Pentium or Celeron.

I'd still rather choose a better Intel CPU and add a dedicated video card (which I can also add later and add HDMI 2.0 and 4k and 3D and all that even better than Kaveri) for a high end or midrange build.

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post #27 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 06:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NikosD View Post

This is definitely not true.
If it was true, I wouldn't complain from the beginning.

UVD 4.2 adds to UVD 3.2 only better handling of errors in video streams.
No HW 4K H.264 for UVD 4.2 and definitely no HW 4K H.265 support.

AMD and hardware review sites disagree with you. I have Guru3D saying the opposite of you and they support their claim by actually testing the hardware and posting the results. You claim everyone but you is wrong and then fail to support your claim. Sorry, but Guru3D and their testing is far more believable than KidosD and no testing.
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post #28 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 06:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

But still... isn't it early for 4k ? There might be a few people doing it now, but I imagine things are going to change or shakeup before this becomes popular. 4k support is more to have a feather in the cap. And nothing Kaveri does is not available with a dedicated GPU.

Can Kaveri do max level MADVR ? Or can it do max level SVP ? If it can- then it has a serious place in HTPC IMO. If it can not- then what is the point ? For basic playback there isn't much difference and the extra GPU horsepower is wasted.

Kaveri is stuck in no mans land where it's not powerful enough for the high end, it's too expensive to really rule the low end, and the performance is either more than you need for basic playback, or not enough for advanced playback.

I see it stuck in the middle, and probably a good alternative to a Pentium or an i3, offering better graphics and full 3D. As soon as it costs what the core i3/i5/i7 costs it's pointless because the Intel are more powerful and more efficient and there isn't much cost difference. So really Kaveri has a place in low end, and can offer advantage over Pentium or Celeron.

I'd still rather choose a better Intel CPU and add a dedicated video card (which I can also add later and add HDMI 2.0 and 4k and 3D and all that even better than Kaveri) for a high end or midrange build.

Yeah, waiting for 4K is the smart thing to do. Until HDMI 2.0 is out there is no reason to grab 4K. My posts were simply to correct the false information presented whose only purpose was AMD bashing.

Kaveri does some very interesting things. If Guru3D's claim of hardware decoding of H.265 is true, then it becomes a little more exciting. Still, my personal opinion is to wait on that as well until the industry catches up. I was going to upgrade to Kaveri when it came out (I went with Richland because my mobo was dying), but I see no real reason to do so.

MadVR does not work with the default WMC players, so I do not use it. AFAIK, madshi has yet to test the new APUs.


EDIT: The next architecture from AMD will most likely be killer - I personally am going to wait for it to upgrade.
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post #29 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 06:27 AM
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I copy from the above link of Guru3D.

" The reason why we noticed stuttering seems to be that the trailer is not DXVA encoded, or DXVA at 4K does not yet work."

About testing, look at the Excel of my signature.

Obviously you don't have a clue about DXVA decoding.

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post #30 of 45 Old 01-17-2014, 07:13 AM
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@cybrsage

When you are ready and you read by yourself that AMD doesn't support 4K H.264 in HW, I expect from you an apology about "false information" I give for AMD and about "KidosD".

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