CableCARD vs "copy once" -- why only WMC? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

What are scene rules?

Pirate codes of conduct.

Thou shall rip to this quality
Thou shall name file this format
Thou shall not ...

Otherwise your file gets nuked.

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post #32 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

I don't think licensing PlayReady is what we would want. That means you still rely on Microsoft to use PlayReady and to make sure it is up to date. The best solution to break free of the MS WMC ties are for another company to create and certify a version of PlayReady.
Don't confuse PlayReady with Media Center. PlayReady in no way relies on Media Center and developing your own DRM would require significant development resources. Even if you did manage to get it certified by CableLabs (not an easy task), there is no guarantee that existing devices would support it. After Certification, CableLabs would need to modifiy the existing specifications to include it and only devices that are certified after the new specification goes into effect would have to support it. Licensing PlayReady is the best option. Licensing DTCP-IP + one of their approved persistent storage DRMs is the second best option. Developing a new DRM scheme and getting is certified by CableLabs is the worst possible solution from a business standpoint.
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post #33 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Don't confuse PlayReady with Media Center. PlayReady in no way relies on Media Center and developing your own DRM would require significant development resources. Even if you did manage to get it certified by CableLabs (not an easy task), there is no guarantee that existing devices would support it. After Certification, CableLabs would need to modifiy the existing specifications to include it and only devices that are certified after the new specification goes into effect would have to support it. Licensing PlayReady is the best option. Licensing DTCP-IP + one of their approved persistent storage DRMs is the second best option. Developing a new DRM scheme and getting is certified by CableLabs is the worst possible solution from a business standpoint.

Why not group PlayReady with WMC? Where else can you use a cablecard with copy protected content than with Microsoft's PlayReady and WMC?

Of course it is a significant resource hog to create your own PlayReady competitor. How interested will MS be in cablecard certification of PlayReady after WMC is gone? That's why I suggested it get replaced too.

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post #34 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 11:27 AM
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PlayReady is used for much, much more than just WMC's protected CableCard content. It's used by IIS Smooth Streaming/Silverlight, Netflix, Amazon Instant Video and Xbox video services just to name a few things.
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post #35 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 11:37 AM
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@vladd thanks for breaking some of this down

do you know what originally kept cablecard tuners locked to OEM machines on Vista and why that was opened up on W7?

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post #36 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 11:46 AM
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Originally, the entire system (tuner + computer + software) had to be Certified by CableLabs. They later removed that requirement in the specifications and only the tuner had to be certified. The tuner is still however only permitted to transfer copy protected video if it is encapsulated in one of the CableLabs approved DRM schemes (which the software would need to support).
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post #37 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

if having the source code would open all the secrets as you believe, then it is likely someone would have figured out how to do it to WMC without the source code.

DRM usually requires a protected path - beginning with booting the OS to what can be loaded to the OS (AKA signed driver).
Yes there are people can hack/defeat the protected path, see this report: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/update-ati-driver-flaw-exposes-vista-kernel-to-attackers/438
that guy is working for Apple now.
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post #38 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

The best solution to break free of the MS WMC ties are for another company to create and certify a version of PlayReady.

The best solution is to abolish DRM. If you pay for something, you should be able to use it as you please. The general industry trend of moving towards IP content delivery is probably going to open the floodgates for an entirely new wave of restrictions and headaches for the end user, but at least it may make CableCard woes obsolete in the process.
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post #39 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

I have read rumours that it's possible to install TiVo cracks to make them ignore copy-once channels, which is perhaps a more likely way for accessing that content

I tried to find and quote the info I read on this, because I had this same question over a year ago and after sifting through all the evidence this was the conclusion I gathered. I think this was the only possible way HBO content was hitting torrence so soon after broadcast
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Open source software would never be able to support it because playback has to support a protected media path including all decoders and renderers. With an open source software, someone with just a little knowledge could simply modify the decoder output to dump a DRM free copy to disk.

Many times when I install a new linux distro it asks whether I'd prefer the open source or proprietary drivers. I don't believe the end user can successfully modify the closed source drivers, but I may be wrong
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Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I had looked into creating a "black-box" type application that could be used by various softwares like NextPVR, MediaPortal and others but there is a clause in the PlayReady License Agreement that makes that idea a non starter.

I'm curious about a few things here
  1. What is the clause that makes the idea a non-starter?
  2. I think the black box idea could work

I agree that the time and effort probably wouldn't reach profit level vs expense, so in reality we need a wealth benefactor looking to invest in a loss for a tax shelter biggrin.gif

Also, even if all this came to pass, if we were still stuck with the WMC copy-once limitations "only works on the device that recorded it" then the software would still suck frown.gif

It really wouldn't take a whole lot of change for WMC to go from a B- to A+ front-end. And a closed-source pay product like W8-extender-edition that was x86/ARM compatible would be a great step rather than leaving the consumers to rely on OEMs removing their head from their tucus when choosing hardware for extenders
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post #40 of 59 Old 02-03-2014, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I think this was the only possible way HBO content was hitting torrence so soon after broadcast

That's because HDMI capture card (with HDCP support ) is widely available.
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post #41 of 59 Old 02-04-2014, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by netant View Post

That's because HDMI capture card (with HDCP support ) is widely available.

Unless my understanding is wrong, if the HDMI capture card supports HDCP then it won't capture copy-once material. If the HDMI capture card doesn't support HDCP, then the STB won't send it any video to capture in the fist place. To record copy-once material via HDMI you'd need a capture card that will circumvent HDCP, and to my knowledge, that doesn't exist.

As has been mentioned in other threads, it's also possible that the HBO scene releases are coming from somewhere overseas where the content isn't encrypted.

If I had a signature, this is where it would be.
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post #42 of 59 Old 02-04-2014, 01:10 AM
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Again, using a capture card would violate Scene rules and cause fake HDTV releases to get nuked. The only valid source for an HDTV release is an MPEG transport stream.

Overseas sources also aren't the explanation, as popular HBO shows do not air in other countries for days, weeks, or even months after the original US broadcast, which is one of the reasons why the bootleg files are so popular there. I believe HBO even decided to alter its Game of Thrones release schedule in Australia to give Australians less incentive to pirate the show. They originally had to wait something like six months to see it on whichever Australian network carries it, and with the massive potential for spoilers provided by social media, many of them weren't waiting.
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post #43 of 59 Old 02-04-2014, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Again, using a capture card would violate Scene rules and cause fake HDTV releases to get nuked. The only valid source for an HDTV release is an MPEG transport stream.

Overseas sources also aren't the explanation, as popular HBO shows do not air in other countries for days, weeks, or even months after the original US broadcast, which is one of the reasons why the bootleg files are so popular there. I believe HBO even decided to alter its Game of Thrones release schedule in Australia to give Australians less incentive to pirate the show. They originally had to wait something like six months to see it on whichever Australian network carries it, and with the massive potential for spoilers provided by social media, many of them weren't waiting.

Well, that's great that you're such a believer in Scene Rules (or is it "Rulez" I never know when the whole l33t speak thing comes into play) but I can hop on usenet right now and download 10,000 hours of content labeled as HDTV that isn't an MPEG transport stream. Was the original source? Maybe. Hard to say, since it isn't the original untouched stream.

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post #44 of 59 Old 02-04-2014, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

Unless my understanding is wrong, if the HDMI capture card supports HDCP then it won't capture copy-once material. If the HDMI capture card doesn't support HDCP, then the STB won't send it any video to capture in the fist place. To record copy-once material via HDMI you'd need a capture card that will circumvent HDCP, and to my knowledge, that doesn't exist.

As has been mentioned in other threads, it's also possible that the HBO scene releases are coming from somewhere overseas where the content isn't encrypted.

Some HDMI capture cards from eBay could record BluRay movies directly from PS3's HDMI output.
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post #45 of 59 Old 02-05-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

  1. What is the clause that makes the idea a non-starter?
  2. I think the black box idea could work
  1. There was a clause that basically said allowing a third party application access to your PlayReady enabled program via API or other means was prohibited. I would need to go back and find the exact clause.
  2. It would if it wasn't for the above mentioned clause (at least the way I understood it).
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Also, even if all this came to pass, if we were still stuck with the WMC copy-once limitations "only works on the device that recorded it" then the software would still suck frown.gif

From my understanding of the PlayReady compliance docs, playing back on another device would not be an issue (as long as it supported PlayReady, DTCP-IP or one of several other DRMs. There are some limitations in how that is accomplished with copy once content though (you couldn't transfer it to another DRM for storage because that would be copy twice for example).
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post #46 of 59 Old 02-05-2014, 12:07 PM
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If there was a decent alternative to WMC even at $100 per machine I'd jump on it. WMC has way too many issues its outdated, etc. This is a headache for the consumer it doesn't prevent anything. Its actually MUCH MUCH easier to just not deal with this mess and go looking for torrents.
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post #47 of 59 Old 02-06-2014, 07:10 AM
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That's entirely your opinion - WMC has no issues using Xbox and Linksys extenders here and was easy to setup with a Prime tuner (DRM'd channels included). I wouldn't call it dated either because it has a fully functional HDUI (which can be greatly enhanced with add-ons) and ability to auto-skip commercials on unprotected channels. It's also remote controllable with stuff like Remote Potato and the Ceton Media Center app for phones and tablets.

I personally prefer my Tivo for day-to-day use, but WMC is my wife's whole house DVR and she has no complaints, and that's saying a lot.
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post #48 of 59 Old 02-06-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ewitte View Post

If there was a decent alternative to WMC even at $100 per machine I'd jump on it. WMC has way too many issues its outdated, etc. This is a headache for the consumer it doesn't prevent anything. Its actually MUCH MUCH easier to just not deal with this mess and go looking for torrents.

Which part of it is outdated?

The ability to view encrypted and copyrighted cable?

The ability to view different content on 6 different TV's at the same time?

Let's see what other alternatives are. Cable company provided box, or TiVO. Both of which are significantly more expensive than WMC.

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #49 of 59 Old 02-06-2014, 09:49 AM
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it definity is dated. it might still work you well enough in a way you're happy with (I'm happy enough using it too).

but you've said yourself you archive movies as avi files w/ mp3 audio because thats all your outdated extenders can handle. thats 10 year old technology. theres a boat load of other features and options that come standard today in any connected tv or set top box that WMC can't do either.

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post #50 of 59 Old 02-06-2014, 10:05 AM
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With the right codec packs installed and configured properly, I have no problem playing back mkv BD rips with DD 5.1 and DTS audio tracks on extenders (Xbox 360) in addition to live TV and recorded TVs.
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post #51 of 59 Old 02-06-2014, 10:10 AM
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mine always get angry about random mkv bd rips
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post #52 of 59 Old 02-06-2014, 10:16 AM
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The key is audio track. DD 5.1 is the most trouble free. DTS sometimes works. Sometimes have trouble. HD audio tracks never really work on extenders for me. It isn't the best choice for play those videos but it is doable inside WMC extender. For BD rips, I use my blu ray player instead which support HD audio and chapter skips.
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post #53 of 59 Old 02-06-2014, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

I have no problem playing back mkv BD rips with DD 5.1 and DTS audio tracks on extenders (Xbox 360)
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DTS sometimes works.

HD audio tracks never really work on extenders for me.

For BD rips, I use my blu ray player instead which support HD audio and chapter skips.

I think thats my point smile.gif if it wasn't outdated there would be new extenders and they would decode and bitstream these things.

Most of us want a unified singular interface to access all the media on all the televisions. If there was one way that allowed us to get DVR recordings off Showtime, bluray movies, mkv, Netflix, DTS-MA, etc from the same interface on the same device I think we would all jump on it.

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post #54 of 59 Old 02-07-2014, 04:32 AM
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If all you use it for is TV it works fine. Not everyone wants to play rips and torrents everywhere.
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post #55 of 59 Old 06-10-2014, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by vladd View Post

The only thing the software would have to license is PlayReady but they would also need license Dolby/MPEG2 for playback (they would be able to rely on third party decoders because it would break the protected playback chain). There are no CableLabs certifications required for software, only for the tuners. The tuners are then authorized to release the copy protected video stream to the software if it is emcapsulated using one of three CableLabs authorized DRM schemes:

  1. DCTP-IP
  2. Windows Media DRM 10 or newer (which includes PlayReady)
  3. Helix DRM (Real Media) : Nobody uses this.


DTCP-IP, as the acronym implies, is a transmission only DRM. It cannot be used to for persistent storage (recordings). For that, the DTCP-IP spec requires that copy protection be handed off to another DRM scheme authorized by the DTLA. See http://www.dtcp.com/approvedtechnologies.aspx

One of those approved DRM schemes is Windows Media DRM 10 or newer (which includes PlayReady). So you can either license DTCP-IP + PlayReady (this is where the $30K price comes from... $15K each) or license just PlayReady because you don't need DTCP-IP for interfacing with an OCUR/DRT if you already have PlayReady).

Sorry to bump an old thread, but you're by far the most knowledgeable person I've run into on this topic on the net. Do you know if we can look forward to the DLNA CVP-2 solution as allowing for recordings, or is it just going to be for transmission as well?

The CVP-2 white paper doesn't say anything about recording, nor does the DTCP link you have above, so I'm not that hopeful - but wondering if you might have some definitive information? Thanks.
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post #56 of 59 Old 06-18-2014, 01:41 PM
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From what I understand (and I haven't really looked into it that much) CVP-2 will basically allow you to control and stream from your cable company's DVR using a DLNA device that supports HTML5.


A followup on what you quoted above:


I was prepared to pay the interim license fees ($5K) for PlayReady with the goal of creating an plugin that could be used to record/play protected CableCard content in third party apps. There is a clause in the PlayReady Compliance docs that may have prohibited it in which case, the license would have been used to create a version of NextPVR was protected content enabled. The plan was to start a Kickstarter campaign for the final license fee ($10K) once the product was ready for distribution. The product would have been sold for a small sum to cover various expenses including MPEG/Dolby decoder licensing (because third party decoders would not be able to be used).


There is clause in the PlayReady Compliance docs that prohibits using content from a CableCard source without written authorization from CableLabs. After several attempts to contact CableLabs, I was finally put in contact with someone who should be able to help and the conversation was very promising. He said I would be fine as long as I complied with the PlayReady specification and he would conduct a conference call (the following week) with myself and someone from their legal department to get what I needed. The conversation with the legal department, however, went very differently.


CableLabs will not authorize ANY software application for protected CableCard content. I would have had to contact every cable provider in the country (large and small) and get authorization from them (who in turn would need authorization from content providers). There was also a long list of stipulations that would need to be met, the exact list not available without NDA (and CableLabs has never responded to my NDA requests).


Bottom line is that I couldn't use PlayReady to access the CableCard tuner without CableLabs authorization (if I wanted to pass the Compliance testing and get the final license) and CableLabs doesn't give authorization under any circumstance. Catch 22.


DTCP has no such restriction (requiring CableLabs approval) so software apps (with the exception of WMC because Microsoft has a special deal with CableLabs in order to comply with their own requirement) do indeed need to license both DTCP-IP ($14K per year) and PlayReady ($15k per major revision). Unfortunately, this was cost prohibitive for my project.

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post #57 of 59 Old 06-18-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post
From what I understand (and I haven't really looked into it that much) CVP-2 will basically allow you to control and stream from your cable company's DVR using a DLNA device that supports HTML5.


A followup on what you quoted above:


I was prepared to pay the interim license fees ($5K) for PlayReady with the goal of creating an plugin that could be used to record/play protected CableCard content in third party apps. There is a clause in the PlayReady Compliance docs that may have prohibited it in which case, the license would have been used to create a version of NextPVR was protected content enabled. The plan was to start a Kickstarter campaign for the final license fee ($10K) once the product was ready for distribution. The product would have been sold for a small sum to cover various expenses including MPEG/Dolby decoder licensing (because third party decoders would not be able to be used).


There is clause in the PlayReady Compliance docs that prohibits using content from a CableCard source without written authorization from CableLabs. After several attempts to contact CableLabs, I was finally put in contact with someone who should be able to help and the conversation was very promising. He said I would be fine as long as I complied with the PlayReady specification and he would conduct a conference call (the following week) with myself and someone from their legal department to get what I needed. The conversation with the legal department, however, went very differently.


CableLabs will not authorize ANY software application for protected CableCard content. I would have had to contact every cable provider in the country (large and small) and get authorization from them (who in turn would need authorization from content providers). There was also a long list of stipulations that would need to be met, the exact list not available without NDA (and CableLabs has never responded to my NDA requests).


Bottom line is that I couldn't use PlayReady to access the CableCard tuner without CableLabs authorization (if I wanted to pass the Compliance testing and get the final license) and CableLabs doesn't give authorization under any circumstance. Catch 22.


DTCP has no such restriction (requiring CableLabs approval) so software apps (with the exception of WMC because Microsoft has a special deal with CableLabs in order to comply with their own requirement) do indeed need to license both DTCP-IP ($14K per year) and PlayReady ($15k per major revision). Unfortunately, this was cost prohibitive for my project.
So what purpose does CableLabs even serve? I thought part of what they do is to serve as the aggregator for licensing DRM (I read it as Damn Rights Management) issues?

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post #58 of 59 Old 06-18-2014, 02:30 PM
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Got me. All I can do is tell you what they told me.


I was pretty disappointed.
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post #59 of 59 Old 06-18-2014, 02:37 PM
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I bet you were. I'm sorry you couldn't crowd fund an alternative to WMC because of the Cable Companies desire to circumvent the regulations allowing alternatives to their cash cow STB's.

The other day I was thinking about the echo and ceton's inability to complete the android project. I'm almost certain that it was as much an issue with hardware and internet based f/w updates as it was the fact that someone over at HBO got wind of the forthcoming ability of that device to be able to act as both a cable box and a local content "streaming" device.. Damn Rights Management!

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