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post #91 of 110 Old 02-26-2014, 06:00 PM
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I'm looking to upgrade my HTPC as well and looking for full htpc duties as well as gaming. I've settled on the Pentium g3220 at $69 paired with a 750ti at $149. 750ti is the new Maxwell part, 65w tdp, doesn't require a 6pin connector (although I do have one), and looks to be pretty powerful on the gaming front. This would settle the Pentium doesn't do frame packed bluray 3d problem, push madvr if needed, and provide 1080p gaming on high except games like BF4, Crysis 3, etc. It would crush COD though.
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post #92 of 110 Old 02-26-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I'm going to venture off topic and out on a limb, but this position is offered quite frequently

My honest answer, even with my new vizio m701d-a3r (and especially with the old Samsung 61A750), is yes. I still don't see a difference. I've got a few 10GB mkvs that I compare against their full bitrate rips, and I can't see a difference. I've got a 12GB 3D SBS mkv and I think it looks great. I don't have the full MVC variant to compare, but the SBS re-encode looks quite good. For the others (2D 1080p), I made the encodes myself *from* the full rip, and they look the same to me.

I guess it's similar to when you hear DVD or flac audio in a high end setup the first time, but you don't really know how to appreciate it. Or recently, when I had to play a blu-ray for someone and "point" out the surround effects. It's easy to get used to a "mode" of viewing where you don't appreciate or notice a difference above certain qualities. For me, I've pointed this out with madvr 1080p in mpchc vs ffmpeg 1080p in XBMC, to appreciate any difference in quality I'd have to adjust my focus in a typical movie from *the movie* to *the edges* and *contrast areas* just to see any difference in detail. I still wonder if the full bitrate purists only spend time watching details in movies rather than just watching movies ? ?

Hi Dark Slayer. I'll follow you off topic and say that I've wondered the same thing. The bitrate purists as you call them used to make me question (at least a little) my practice of running my ripped movies through Handbrake to compress the MKVs. Some here are so adamant about being able to see a difference that it would make me wonder if I just had an untrained eye and whether there might come a time when all the sudden I'd recognize these deficiencies I'd never noticed before and would start seeing them in all my compressed movie files. So I started going out of my way to look for flaws and doing A/B testing of the same scenes full rip vs. compressed, etc., to make sure if that tipping pont was going to come it would be sooner rather than later. That is, until it finally hit me how silly it all was. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there are videophiles out there who like looking for every imperfection and I like reading (and am sometimes swayed by) professional bluray reviews. But I don't want to watch movies that way and I have a hard time believing very many of the bitrate purists do either. Just doesn't seem like much fun to me. But, to each his own I guess.
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post #93 of 110 Old 02-26-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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What should i look at when buying a mobo? Some mobos do not have hdmi output.. is that a problem? can i use dvi-hdmi adapters? does it affect 3d video or 4k video? (there won't be audio i guess?)

reposting as it is lost in the previous page

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post #94 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 07:27 AM
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You want HDMI

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post #95 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

You want HDMI


ok thx. Anything i need to look at when buying a mobo? How easy is it to underclock the core i3 4130 so as it consumes same power as 4130T?

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post #96 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

You want HDMI

If the motherboard is right for the job, a $10 video card adds HDMI, and will probably be better than on-board/on-CPU one.

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #97 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post

If the motherboard is right for the job, a $10 video card adds HDMI, and will probably be better than on-board/on-CPU one.

It's tough to find a GPU card for $10. And the added hassle and energy costs is rarely worth it just for HDMI IMO. However, if you wanted say 3D or MadVR then it's a different story (but again not $10).


For $10 I think you are better off getting a mobo with it. That is about what HDMI costs extra in a mobo anyways. Sometimes less. It just seems easier unless you specifically want a GPU card.

I would look at a $69 Asrock H87 motherboard with HDMI and INTEL LAN. That's my suggestion on the high value side of things.

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post #98 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yeahman45 View Post
 


ok thx. Anything i need to look at when buying a mobo? How easy is it to underclock the core i3 4130 so as it consumes same power as 4130T?


can i underclock with any mobo? Do i need a feature on mobo for 4k video(some mobo advertise doing it..so i guess some don't?) or 3d video?

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post #99 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 12:58 PM
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4k is more dependent on your GPU (or CPU iGPU) than the actual mobo port. I'd think you would upgrade to a GPU card when you wanted 4k anyways though. Do you have a 4K display ?

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post #100 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahman45 View Post
 


can i underclock with any mobo? Do i need a feature on mobo for 4k video(some mobo advertise doing it..so i guess some don't?) or 3d video?


it's possible to use audio with dvi -> hdmi adapter this topic is not easy and depends on a lot of things same for 3d just get a board with hdmi 1.4. for full 4k support you need hdmi 2.0, of cause DP can do 4k in 60 fps since years but there is no tv with DP and most likely this isn't changing. and forget 4k support it will take al lot of more years till 4k is used. intel can only decode 4k h264 streams but h264 is most likely not used for 4k it's going to be h265 or something else.

 

about down clocking.

all board should support it but in the end a non t or non s version doesn't use more power they only can use more power when needed. tdp really useless the number is just theoretical ignore it.

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post #101 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 01:40 PM
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Well said, I have my CPU set to 4000mhz right now (manually set to 40 x 100 in bios). That is 4000mhz by 8 cores (4 virtual and 4 actual)





Look at the above pictures: You will notice: (screen shot taken from when I typed this reply)

Idling around AVS my system will cruise at 800mhz without breaking a sweat. Keep in mind I am downloading, and I run triple monitors too.

If I open up something heavy like WINRAR an ISO see what happens:






It's there when I need it, but not when I do not.

Simply put downclocking makes almost no sense to me at all. When your CPU is going full tilt you want all that power. It's not going waste any power when you do not need it. So I do not see the point.

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post #102 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 02:11 PM
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Undervolting is where you really save power. Underclocking comes with it usually; because when you undervolt a significant amount, the CPU wouldn't be able to draw enough power to run @ stock speeds - so you would need to underclock as well. And of course power=heat, so by undervolting you are keeping your system cooler also. How much power/heat you save depends on how much you undervolt (and subsequently, underclock). Underclocking just by itself won't really do squat for you.
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post #103 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 02:53 PM
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Undervolting is where you really save power. Underclocking comes with it usually; because when you undervolt a significant amount, the CPU wouldn't be able to draw enough power to run @ stock speeds - so you would need to underclock as well. And of course power=heat, so by undervolting you are keeping your system cooler also. How much power/heat you save depends on how much you undervolt (and subsequently, underclock). Underclocking just by itself won't really do squat for you.

But again on modern haswel it is already very efficient and already will undervolt and underclock itself to save power. Simply put if you don't need the power then it won't be produced, and all that electricity and heat will be saved.

I think there is more viability in the strategy of overbuying your CPU so that it will never hit 100% in an effort to stay cool and quiet than there is in the strategy of buying a weaker CPU. I think it's a common misconception that a cheaper weaker CPU will draw less power or save energy/heat/noise. That's not actually true. A weak CPU that needs to run 80% to get the job done is actually going to run hotter, and noisier than a quad core running 800mhz and 10%. You do not need to undervolt a CPU because if you set your power settings right it will be done automatically for you. Difference being if you need the power it will be available. Manual under volting would be a permanent handicap. That seems bad to me. Then again a slow HTPC or PC scares the crap out of me. I hate that. I might be different.

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post #104 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 03:14 PM
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The reason to do it manually is to able to achieve a lower undervolt/underclock than the cpu/system can do automatically. While they are very efficient on their own/out of the box, it's not as efficient as they CAN be. If it's not for you, cool.
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post #105 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 03:22 PM
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The reason to do it is it is able to achieve a lower undervolt/underclock than the cpu/system can do manually/automatically.

I do understand that, but you would need a pretty robust CPU with headroom. Killing the performance of something like a pentium down to say 2ghz is going to make it slower than I'd want. Anything with a passmark score under 2000 is nearly worthless IMO. really just not a pleasant experience. I would not want that. It would be clearly disadvantaged and sluggish. I think there is a time when you want performance, and it's nice to have it when you need it. I'd just let the CPU and power setting figure it out, I think it does a good job. 800mhz idle speeds are fine IMO. Haswel is extremely efficient in these areas... the trade off of manually under volting would not worth it. We are talking about killing performance, and extra work - just to save an insignificant amount of power and heat.

It might make sense on a more piggy style CPU, but with Haswell I don't think the trade off is worth the trouble. It's very efficient to begin with. I'd just enjoy it for what it is. My original point was that a non T series will consume the same amount of energy as the T series when playing back the same video file. You don't need a T series. If the non T series is using more power then you would be very happy it is more powerful, because that would be a scenario where the T series would be tapped out at 100% and have a performance disadvantage.

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post #106 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 03:26 PM
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I do understand that, but you would need a pretty robust CPU with headroom. Killing the performance of something like a pentium down to say 2ghz is going to make it slower than I'd want. Anything with a passmark score under 2000 is nearly worthless IMO. really just not a pleasant experience. I would not want that. It would be clearly disadvantaged and sluggish. I think there is a time when you want performance, and it's nice to have it when you need it. I'd just let the CPU and power setting figure it out, I think it does a good job. 800mhz idle speeds are fine IMO. Haswel is extremely efficient in these areas... the trade off of manually under volting would not worth it. We are talking about killing performance, and extra work - just to save an insignificant amount of power and heat.

It might make sense on a more piggy style CPU, but with Haswell I don't think the trade off is worth the trouble. It's very efficient to begin with. I'd just enjoy it for what it is. My original point was that a non T series will consume the same amount of energy as the T series when playing back the same video file. You don't need a T series. If the non T series is using more power then you would be very happy it is more powerful, because that would be a scenario where the T series would be tapped out at 100% and have a performance disadvantage.

That is all just subjective.

People who don't do MadVR, do no transcoding, etc have no need for the same power you might require/deem necessary. Everyone has different wants/needs/goals.

Like I said, if it ain't for you, cool. But that doesn't negate its place in the world for anyone and everyone. Only you.
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post #107 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 04:24 PM
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That is all just subjective.

People who don't do MadVR, do no transcoding, etc have no need for the same power you might require/deem necessary. Everyone has different wants/needs/goals.

Like I said, if it ain't for you, cool. But that doesn't negate its place in the world for anyone and everyone. Only you.

You are right. I was expressing my own personal slant on it. I know a basic 2.5ghz CPU like a CELERON Sandy bridge or Ivy bridge runs about 2000-2500 Passmark scores, and that is about the minimum I would personally want. They are starting to feel sluggish to me. Again, you are right it might be that my personal performance bar is based on my 3570K i5 in my HTPC, my 2600k i7 in my media server and my 4770k i7 in my desktop. But I also have a G860 3.0ghz dual core in my office PC, and it does feel a little sluggish to me.

I actually own a variety of CPU and have tested them first hand and back to back:



My personal bone yard behind my treadmill and elliptical in my mess basement ^

I've used a G530 Celeron all the way up to my i7. I've run multiple different machines at multiple different tasks in the last few generations of CPU's. Several different Celeron, Pentium, i3, i5, and i7. I feel like I am qualified to give an opinion, and I'm not trying to suggest my opinion is the only right one. Just trying to offer it as some advice with the sincere attempt at providing some help to someone who might not be as experienced in the differences.

My G860 3.0ghz is a tad sluggish for me, but still perfectly usable I'd guess for the majority of people who are not performance sensitive or don't know better. It has a passmark score of 2831. A celeron like I said runs about 2000-2500. Something like a G530 is about 2100 I think. I've used that too, and that is indeed a bit sluggish. For comparison the machine I am typing this on that I posted the screen shots above runs 11,000 passmark scores all day. I'm not saying everyone needs an i7, but I do think that when you get down to about a 2000 passmark score CPU they feel slow. I don't know how much you could undervolt a Pentium before it feels pretty slow. They are already pretty slow to begin with. That was my point. You won't save much energy at all really, and you will give up too much performance. If someone was ultra sensitive to heat and noise, and perhaps was trying to build a passive cooled machine that was totally silent and still decent performance I could see how undervolting an i5 or i7 might make sense. It would still have enough performance to be good, but it would be dead silent and run cool. But again, modern CPU already are so I still question if it would be worth it. You would need a special circumstance to make it worth it I think. It's not very likely to happen for most people.

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post #108 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 08:06 PM
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I do understand that, but you would need a pretty robust CPU with headroom. Killing the performance of something like a pentium down to say 2ghz is going to make it slower than I'd want. Anything with a passmark score under 2000 is nearly worthless IMO. really just not a pleasant experience. I would not want that. It would be clearly disadvantaged and sluggish. I think there is a time when you want performance, and it's nice to have it when you need it. I'd just let the CPU and power setting figure it out, I think it does a good job. 800mhz idle speeds are fine IMO. Haswel is extremely efficient in these areas... the trade off of manually under volting would not worth it. We are talking about killing performance, and extra work - just to save an insignificant amount of power and heat.

It might make sense on a more piggy style CPU, but with Haswell I don't think the trade off is worth the trouble. It's very efficient to begin with. I'd just enjoy it for what it is. My original point was that a non T series will consume the same amount of energy as the T series when playing back the same video file. You don't need a T series. If the non T series is using more power then you would be very happy it is more powerful, because that would be a scenario where the T series would be tapped out at 100% and have a performance disadvantage.
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That is all just subjective

A bunch of his post was subjective, but this one particular portion "a non T series will consume the same amount of energy as the T series when playing back the same video file" is factually correct

Nevcairel is a very smart fellow, but his comment that "a T series will use less power" was only partially true. It *will* definitely use less power than it's equivalent non-T if you happen to be running some Prime95 stress test on them. However, when you are doing *HTPC* tasks like video playback (without something silly like SVP going on) the CPU doesn't reach it's turbo frequencies, and they really only need some paltry 10% utilization to take care of business. T will limit your max, but that only uses less power at 100% (while performing less mind you). However, low cpu tasks won't be consuming less power out of the box, and are really only recommended if you want the low-profile cooler
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post #109 of 110 Old 02-27-2014, 11:45 PM
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in the end you can easily waste power with down clocking. yeah it take less power on 100% but it takes way longer to do the same task and in the end power is wasted.

 

this normally isn't happing in htpc because if you hit 100 % with a non downclocked cpu you can't play the same file with a downclocked cpu.

the t/s  cpu are only good if you have real trouble cooling the cpu and you can downclock a normal version. else it's totally pointless. ok i can't see a point in them.

 

btw i'm passivly cooling  4130 with no problem at all just a huge cpu cooler without a fan.

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post #110 of 110 Old 03-01-2014, 06:16 AM
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Yup that was my point. The newer chips are already so efficient that there isn't much upside to under volting them.

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