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post #31 of 59 Old 07-18-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 2E151 View Post
Will a standard power supply fit in a 2U case, or do I need a slim one designed for a server case?
Depends on the case. Some will work with a standard ATX power supply, some have proprietary supplies and others use the 1U supplies.

Another thing to consider if you're wanting to go the backplane route is to stick with a tower case and get a couple 4in3 or 5in3 hotswap cages.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #32 of 59 Old 07-18-2014, 05:21 PM
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What cages have backplanes ?

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post #33 of 59 Old 07-18-2014, 06:03 PM
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What cages have backplanes ?
Um... pretty much every multi-drive sata hot swap cage I've ever encountered.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #34 of 59 Old 07-18-2014, 06:19 PM
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With sas8087? I've been looking and can't find.

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post #35 of 59 Old 07-18-2014, 06:32 PM
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I don't know if this is going to initiate a terminology war, but typically a cage is what you call it when there are no backplanes. You just connect power and data cables to your drives

When I've seen a backplane it was usually called a module or enclosure. Like these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816133030

OP - I use two of those 5in3 hot swap enclosures in my server to give me 10 extra bays in addition to the 5 built in HDD bays on a thermaltake armor. Having the backplane is nice like mfusick said, since with those two norco 5in3 modules I use I can just plug in two molex connectors from the PSU to the entire enclosure rather than 5 sata connections from the PSU

With those backplanes added to a tower you can't go 8087->8087 like you can in the norco chassis. That's a little cleaner on cable management, but not much. I have to use 8087->sata breakout cables then connect the sata (data not power) cable ends to the backplane

It's nice to just pull or add a drive by pulling out the tray and adding the drive to it without opening the case. I used to antagonise mfusick for pushing the hot swap thing so much, but I can't ever see myself going back after having it for myself
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post #36 of 59 Old 07-18-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
With sas8087? I've been looking and can't find.
Doubtful you'll find a SAS connector on a SATA backplane.

Most SAS gear is aimed at Enterprise which means you have two problems... the first is, you won't find much in the way of "home brew" SAS parts... it's pretty much enterprise level server chassis, and enterprise level RAID cards. The second problem is that even if you do manage to find a drive cage with SAS connector, it's probably going to be for 2.5" enterprise drives, as most Enterprise storage has been moving away from 3.5" drives for the last several years. (Backblaze not withstanding)

Having said that, Supermicro makes a few 2.5" cages with 8087 connectors.

Edit: Agree with Dark_Slayer on the terminology. "Cage" was not the best choice of words. (though it does yield fruitful results with a newegg search)

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #37 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post
I don't know if this is going to initiate a terminology war, but typically a cage is what you call it when there are no backplanes. You just connect power and data cables to your drives

When I've seen a backplane it was usually called a module or enclosure. Like these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816133030

OP - I use two of those 5in3 hot swap enclosures in my server to give me 10 extra bays in addition to the 5 built in HDD bays on a thermaltake armor. Having the backplane is nice like mfusick said, since with those two norco 5in3 modules I use I can just plug in two molex connectors from the PSU to the entire enclosure rather than 5 sata connections from the PSU

With those backplanes added to a tower you can't go 8087->8087 like you can in the norco chassis. That's a little cleaner on cable management, but not much. I have to use 8087->sata breakout cables then connect the sata (data not power) cable ends to the backplane

It's nice to just pull or add a drive by pulling out the tray and adding the drive to it without opening the case. I used to antagonise mfusick for pushing the hot swap thing so much, but I can't ever see myself going back after having it for myself
Yeah that was my thinking ... backplanes are not on cages. Cages just hold HDD's. I'm not of enough concern to care much about a terminology war. I'll call it whatever people want to call it. But I'm currently looking for cages with SAS connector and backplanes to expand my norco past 20 hard drives.

I think I am going to just do a second value chassis.

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post #38 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
Doubtful you'll find a SAS connector on a SATA backplane.

Most SAS gear is aimed at Enterprise which means you have two problems... the first is, you won't find much in the way of "home brew" SAS parts... it's pretty much enterprise level server chassis, and enterprise level RAID cards. The second problem is that even if you do manage to find a drive cage with SAS connector, it's probably going to be for 2.5" enterprise drives, as most Enterprise storage has been moving away from 3.5" drives for the last several years. (Backblaze not withstanding)

Having said that, Supermicro makes a few 2.5" cages with 8087 connectors.

Edit: Agree with Dark_Slayer on the terminology. "Cage" was not the best choice of words. (though it does yield fruitful results with a newegg search)
I have a case I can use, that is full tower but I'd like to use SAS for connection and have a backplane for power splitting to make it easier.

Looks like not too much exists so I'll probably add a second server chassis. Anyone know a cheap server chassis that has SAS8087 and power splitting backplanes? Preferable 4 per like my Norco now ?

Would it be crazy to just buy replacement norco backplanes and make my own chassis ? I have a spare fan wall, and I'm pretty slick with metal or wood fabrication. I could retro fit this full tower chasis to lay sideways I think

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post #39 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Yeah that was my thinking ... backplanes are not on cages. Cages just hold HDD's. I'm not of enough concern to care much about a terminology war. I'll call it whatever people want to call it. But I'm currently looking for cages with SAS connector and backplanes to expand my norco past 20 hard drives.

I think I am going to just do a second value chassis.
For the record.. I'm not making this stuff up...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...=-1&isNodeId=1

Note the term "cage" in the listings.

I get that "cage" might not be the best term to use, but it most definitely is an accepted term in that context.

If you guys want to keep nitpicking terminology you need to figure out which side of the fence you want to sit on.

The "proper" definition of transcoding doesn't imply real time. The use of it to mean real-time is accepted, but not the proper definition. Just because some chucklehead at plex decided he didn't want to talk about ffmpeg or whatever lame horse**** excuse it was why they decided to do what they did, that doesn't change the term as a whole.

At least I can acknowledge when I've used a term in a manner that might not be the most precise. Wish some other folks (who insist on calling others out) could man up and do the same.

So what's it going to be? Are we going to nitpick and bring up every minor vocabulary snafu no matter how inconsequential it might be to the conversation, or can we act like grown ups and just have a normal conversation?

That said, you're right... backplanes aren't cages. Backplanes are a part of hot swap cages, and as I stated above, if you get a multi drive sata hot swap cage it most certainly will include a backplane.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #40 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I have a case I can use, that is full tower but I'd like to use SAS for connection and have a backplane for power splitting to make it easier.

Looks like not too much exists so I'll probably add a second server chassis. Anyone know a cheap server chassis that has SAS8087 and power splitting backplanes? Preferable 4 per like my Norco now ?

Would it be crazy to just buy replacement norco backplanes and make my own chassis ? I have a spare fan wall, and I'm pretty slick with metal or wood fabrication. I could retro fit this full tower chasis to lay sideways I think
Trying to make your own will probably cost more than just buying a Norco.

You have a few otions outside of starting from scratch...

1) Do the double-case mod and cut teh bottom out of a case and stack the two
2) Get a 2nd case, buy a bunch of internal to external SAS adapters to keep things clean and cable everything from the new case to the old case.
3) get a 2nd case that includes a SAS expander just buy 1 internal to external SAS adapter and be off on your merry way.

I prefer Option 3 especially if you don't mind used equipment as it will be significantly cheaper and easier than the other two. THe downside could be performance as the SAS expander will limit bandwidth, but depending on the nature of your use with it, it might not have a significant impact.

I've read good things about these and plan on getting a couple soon:

http://unixsurplus.com/product/sgi-3...-nas-jbod-good

and you can do further reading about them here:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1711128

But I think it would be more than adequate for media storage. You could then keep all of your other more dynamic data on your pool that isn't on the expander without fear of any performance degradation.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #41 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 10:06 AM
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I think the double case makes sense. I don't mind cutting or drilling a hole in the top and bottom of the cases. They would always be stacked. But I could also go out the back and in the back of another to avoid that if cables was long enough.

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post #42 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 10:19 AM
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I think the double case makes sense. I don't mind cutting or drilling a hole in the top and bottom of the cases. They would always be stacked. But I could also go out the back and in the back of another to avoid that if cables was long enough.
The thing to keep in mind for the double case mod is to either physically join the cases so that if you move one, the other comes with it, otherwise doing any sort of maintenance can get really cumbersome. If they aren't physically joined and you need to move one (or both) you'll either have to move both at once, which I imagine would be difficult with two unattached 4u server chassis, or take them apart and uncable everything in the expansion chassis. You could use the internal to external adapters to give you a place to disconnect the two chassis without opening anything, but that would require several of those is you planned on populating a norco 4224 or 4220 (and knowing you, you'll eventually have both full... let's not kid ourselves)
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RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #43 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 10:29 AM
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Of course it'll be populated

But if you wanted to turn a case into a JBOD case, you can get something like this: http://www.servethehome.com/supermic...sis-made-easy/

They have breakout cables to connect non-Supermicro power buttons and LEDs too.
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post #44 of 59 Old 07-19-2014, 10:53 AM
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Of course it'll be populated

But if you wanted to turn a case into a JBOD case, you can get something like this: http://www.servethehome.com/supermic...sis-made-easy/

They have breakout cables to connect non-Supermicro power buttons and LEDs too.
this is the route I think I will take. I'm just trying to find a cheaper dummie case that has backplanes. I don't want to run sata wires.

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post #45 of 59 Old 07-20-2014, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know if this is going to initiate a terminology war, but typically a cage is what you call it when there are no backplanes. You just connect power and data cables to your drives

When I've seen a backplane it was usually called a module or enclosure. Like these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816133030

OP - I use two of those 5in3 hot swap enclosures in my server to give me 10 extra bays in addition to the 5 built in HDD bays on a thermaltake armor. Having the backplane is nice like mfusick said, since with those two norco 5in3 modules I use I can just plug in two molex connectors from the PSU to the entire enclosure rather than 5 sata connections from the PSU

With those backplanes added to a tower you can't go 8087->8087 like you can in the norco chassis. That's a little cleaner on cable management, but not much. I have to use 8087->sata breakout cables then connect the sata (data not power) cable ends to the backplane

It's nice to just pull or add a drive by pulling out the tray and adding the drive to it without opening the case. I used to antagonise mfusick for pushing the hot swap thing so much, but I can't ever see myself going back after having it for myself
Yeah, this is the direction I want to take it in. Do those modules fit directly into the Thermaltake Armor, or did you have to modify the case?
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post #46 of 59 Old 07-20-2014, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, which model of Thermaltake Armor are you using?
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post #47 of 59 Old 07-20-2014, 04:42 PM
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Also, which model of Thermaltake Armor are you using?
I have the old high end one, full tower- 10 bays. With add on hard drive cages for 14 hard drives. I'd sell it cheap too, but shipping is expensive on something this big and sized. It's the good one with the thick metal ply. It has the side window clear as well. I think it was $399 back in 2007 or whenever core2 duo was current high end. It just sits on my floor empty now. I have all the accessories for it too, because this was my first case I used for a server before I upgraded to the 20 bay hot swap chassis. I have the SATA splitters, and the 4 sata wire combos, the IDE to SATA power splitters and all that. Probably $50 in accessories to power and hook up 12 HDD's and the extra thermaltake HDD cage (3 total + another up top near PSU) I think the cages alone where like $30 each.

$40 the case is yours. $50 I'd do all the extra accessories too. But shipping might be $$$.

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post #48 of 59 Old 07-21-2014, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the old high end one, full tower- 10 bays. With add on hard drive cages for 14 hard drives. I'd sell it cheap too, but shipping is expensive on something this big and sized. It's the good one with the thick metal ply. It has the side window clear as well. I think it was $399 back in 2007 or whenever core2 duo was current high end. It just sits on my floor empty now. I have all the accessories for it too, because this was my first case I used for a server before I upgraded to the 20 bay hot swap chassis. I have the SATA splitters, and the 4 sata wire combos, the IDE to SATA power splitters and all that. Probably $50 in accessories to power and hook up 12 HDD's and the extra thermaltake HDD cage (3 total + another up top near PSU) I think the cages alone where like $30 each.

$40 the case is yours. $50 I'd do all the extra accessories too. But shipping might be $$$.

That would be a great deal, but yeah, the shipping would probably kill me considering I can get a new one for about 149 + 15 bucks shipping.
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post #49 of 59 Old 07-21-2014, 09:35 AM
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Okay, because my servers have been through a few iterations I am going to suggest a different approach: Go with real enterprise hardware. You will appreciate that down the road.

I started out with all consumer hardware, moved on to consumer parts in an enterprise case, and finally arrived at Enterprise components only, with the exception of the hard drives.


After long periods of 24 /7 operation I just found consumer parts didn't last. Norco backplanes broke, motherboard RAM slots and SATA ports went inop and RAM sticks arrived dead.

Currently I'm using a Supermicro SC826 case that I got brand new off eBay for £140. It's got redundant power supplies, a SAS expander backplane and 12 hotswap bays. The power supplies are noisy but that won't matter if you can locate the server in a closet or basement.

Inside it is a Supermicro X9SRL-F motherboard, a Socket 2011 Xeon 1.8 gigahertz quad core processor and 16GB of ECC DDR3 RAM.

The motherboard has IPMI which is a fantastic feature allowing completely headless operation, great if the system is stowed away in a basement or garage.

This is all running Windows Server 2012 essentials and flexraid.

You can get those Supermicro cases really cheap, even complete servers if you don't mind older hardware. This is true enterprise gear at rock bottom prices.

I wanted a motherboard for the new Xeons so I got mine at retail, but just go one generation back and you can get great deals.
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post #50 of 59 Old 07-21-2014, 06:47 PM
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That would be a great deal, but yeah, the shipping would probably kill me considering I can get a new one for about 149 + 15 bucks shipping.
Where you live?

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post #51 of 59 Old 07-21-2014, 07:06 PM
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what kind of CPU can handle 3D SBS or Updown?
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post #52 of 59 Old 07-22-2014, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Where you live?
Florida, Melbourne
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post #53 of 59 Old 07-22-2014, 06:27 AM
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You mind driving Clearwater or Orlando pick it up ?

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post #54 of 59 Old 07-22-2014, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Red face

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You mind driving Clearwater or Orlando pick it up ?
With the way fuel prices are down here, even that might not balance out. I'll have to see if I'll be in Orlando anytime in the future. I really appreciate it though
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post #55 of 59 Old 07-22-2014, 01:52 PM
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what kind of CPU can handle 3D SBS or Updown?
Core i3 i5 or i7 or modern AMD CPU are 3D capable but ideally you want MVC MKV or ISO. SBS or OU suck.

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post #56 of 59 Old 07-22-2014, 05:03 PM
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Core i3 i5 or i7 or modern AMD CPU are 3D capable but ideally you want MVC MKV or ISO. SBS or OU suck.
why does it suck?
just lower res?

I just bought a low-end J1900 Acer so I hope it can handle most of these files.
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post #57 of 59 Old 07-22-2014, 08:47 PM
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Actually I just remoted into my Flexraid server and checked, wife is watching via PLEX on our ROKU and my parents are watching at their house via Mediabrowser 3 app for their ROKU.
How are you viewing this info? Looking for transcoding processes in task manager?
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post #58 of 59 Old 07-23-2014, 10:24 AM
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How are you viewing this info? Looking for transcoding processes in task manager?
No. Both PLEX and MB show you what is currently playing. I remote into my server (or just open up the config page from my desktop) and bring up the PLEX or MB server pages in the browser.

MB server shows you on the first page. PLEX is an orange icon you can click to see with zig zag looking lines.

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post #59 of 59 Old 07-24-2014, 12:05 AM
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Yeah, this is the direction I want to take it in. Do those modules fit directly into the Thermaltake Armor, or did you have to modify the case?
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Also, which model of Thermaltake Armor are you using?
I have this one http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/produc...?id=C_00000091

I had to mod the 5.25 bays since they had tabs. The 5in3 hot swaps don't fit into any case with the 5.25 bay tabs. It really was not a fun mod for me since I ran into it haphazardly (poor planning and too much ego) and ended up having to be serverless for a couple days to get the case taken apart so I could take it over to my dad's and use his dremel. Ended up using some snips to get the removal started on each tab then a dremel to get everything removed flush. Then an air compressor to blow all the miscellaneous shavings out of the case

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why does it suck?
just lower res?

I just bought a low-end J1900 Acer so I hope it can handle most of these files.
Doesn't really suck, but generally it is either lower res or an extremely large filesize. I'm not sure if MVC MKV can be played back 2D in XBMC with the j1900, but stardogchampion or someone in the j1900 threads could likely test that for you. My guess would be that it can, but I honestly don't know for sure. I playback my MVC MKVs in 2D within XBMC. I've yet to setup a true stereoscopic player for them (thought I had this with PDVD but found out later it was a conversion) but an external player isn't too much to setup if you are doing a windows build

As to whether or not it really sucks, playback some SBS file in 2D and 3D in xbmc and see if the quality is acceptable to you. I only have one file in this format, and it looks great to me (turbo). There's always going to be a line somewhere between theoretical maximum and what the human eye can perceive in regards to your viewing needs
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