Cablecard is in trouble - House votes to dump requirement - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't that say that from 7 alone there are 2x WMC users per Tivo subscriber?

600M x 0.015 = 9M WMC vs 4.5M Tivo
It would appear so.

Stats are great, but you also have to look behind the numbers.

Let's assume that 90% of Windows 7 licenses are installed on work computers, i.e. no business need for WMC in most cases. That leaves 60,000,000 home users worldwide. Out of those 60M there are 9M regular WMC users. That is 15% of all Windows installed on home computers that regularly use WMC.

That is almost double the number of regular Internet Explorer users.
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

I really think Microsoft jumped the gun in abandoning WMC, just as it is gaining momentum.

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #32 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 06:29 AM
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How many use it to watch TV with a cablecard? That's what we're really talking about here-pretty much all the other features are replaceable with third party apps. I'd be shocked if there were even a hundred thousand.


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Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post
Based on somewhat outdated information: According to Microsoft, and they know exactly how many people use WMC7, there are 9,000,000 regular WMC7 users.

Out of 600,000,000 Windows 7 licenses, 6% used WMC7 occasionally, and 25% of the 6% used it regularly (1.5% of all Windows users).

I wish there was more updated information. At the time of the publication there were very few tuner options.

There are a number of WMC8 users.

Not sure if MCE XP is still supported with the guide feed since support for XP has ended.

For comparison, There are a total of 4,500,000 Tivo Subscribers in the world.

Sources:

http://www.businessinsider.com/micro...ry-much-2011-9

http://www.zdnet.com/with-600-millio...xp-4010026342/

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zht...479&highlight=
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post #33 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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http://multichannel.com/news/technol...ast-47m/374461

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The nation’s top nine incumbent cable operators have deployed more than 47 million MSO-supplied set-tops with CableCARDs, the National Cable & Telecommunications Association told the FCC in a report filed Friday (May 9). That’s up from about 45 million when the NCTA filed its FCC report in late January.

The number of CableCARDs deployed in leased devices continues to dwarf the number of modules used in devices with CableCARD slots sold at retail, including TiVo DVRs and a limited number of HDTV models. In its latest report, the NCTA said the nine largest U.S. MSOs have deployed over 616,000 CableCARDs for use in retail devices, just 10,000 more than the 606,000 reported in January.
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post #34 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 07:08 AM
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I just hope whatever eventually replaces cablecard technology allows users to set up their own devices. I have some issues with WMC and my ceton cable card tuner but it beats paying upwards of $30 or more a month for the cable companies boxes that I would need. Of course my wife sees it differently, she just wants a TV that works and isn't all "complicated"
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post #35 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Whatever the successor is to cablecard will need software/apps written. Open source won't cut it - this will have to come from a company with deep pockets.

I can imagine apps for Android TV, or Samsung Smart TV, or Roku branded devices, but I wonder who would lead the development of Windows or Mac based front end type software (I don't think anyone will if Ceton and/or Silicon Dust haven't done it yet). This next interation could be what Apple uses to finally debut a television set.

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post #36 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 11:46 AM
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It would be great though if this alternative route to feed Tivo's is available to other tuners...though I doubt it.
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post #37 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyodor View Post
How many use it to watch TV with a cablecard? That's what we're really talking about here-pretty much all the other features are replaceable with third party apps. I'd be shocked if there were even a hundred thousand.
Yup. Just because someone uses WMC, doesn't mean they're using it to watch TV. Just because someone uses WMC to watch TV, doesn't mean they are using CableCard. WMC CableCard users are a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority. I expect TIVO (in regards to CableCard users) has CableCard WMC user count well, well beat.
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post #38 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post
It would appear so.

Stats are great, but you also have to look behind the numbers.
So your response to misleading stats is to just make some up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post
Let's assume that 90% of Windows 7 licenses are installed on work computers, i.e. no business need for WMC in most cases. That leaves 60,000,000 home users worldwide. Out of those 60M there are 9M regular WMC users. That is 15% of all Windows installed on home computers that regularly use WMC.
You're just completely fabricating a number, and then taking the result of that fabrication (that 15% of "home" Windows users, use Media Center regularly) and stating it as fact. Not to mention the "600,000,000 million" figure is Windows 7 install base, and the percentages you're using to derive your stats are WMC stats. (which presumably include Vista and possibly XP)


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That is almost double the number of regular Internet Explorer users.
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
Then on top of it, you're comparing your fabricated stat to the wrong real stat. Your 15% figure is derived as part of windows user base. (and your imaginary subset of "home" users) whereas the browser link you show is looking at all users, not just windows or windows "home" users. Of course the numbers for IE look a lot worse in that context. Mac users, and Unix users can't use IE. If you wanted a "fair" comparison, it was in the first article you linked to...

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By comparison, Media Player (66% of Windows users in July) and IE (88%) are popular rendering engines for all types of media content, including an increased volume of "premium" and streaming content.
...which is also from the same time frame as your "assumed" stat.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #39 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post
Whatever the successor is to cablecard will need software/apps written. Open source won't cut it - this will have to come from a company with deep pockets.
Open source would be fine if these companies would just admit that DRM doesn't even work and only encourages people to seek illegal solutions that are easier to use than the legal ones. It's already seemed to work in the music business, as services like iTunes and Pandora have made getting legal music cheap and easy, so old, illegal alternatives like Napster have fallen to the wayside.
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post #40 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 05:10 PM
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Cablecard, Playready, DRM etc etc all need to die. The question is, will they? I suspect not.

There may or may not be a successor to cablecard, but practically speaking nothing will change. You'll still have restrictions, you'll still have DRM, proprietary solutions and what not. Why? You guys are thinking of this from a consumer perspective.

If I was the CEO of HBO and I had to make a decision - Why don't I launch a web platform (and associated apps) and allow paying users to stream my stuff directly from me, rather than via their cable/sat setup??

Well, let's see how much can I charge them...Hmm..the only comparison is Netflix. And that's $7-8 a month. WHAT? Is Hastings nuts? What is wrong with him?? Hmm...then there's Amazon. Wait, they give away their video library FREE to Prime members! But their users do pay them $99 a year...and that's what? $8 a month. What is wrong with Bezos?? Is he nuts?

<--Looks at how much Comcast/Verizon/DirecTV et all are paying me per month GUARANTEED, without spinning up a new web infrastructure (that's going to cost me a pretty penny...).

<---Calls the CEOs of these cable companies and congratulates them on what a fine job they are doing...and sits back with his 30yr old scotch.

<---What is wrong with all these guys on AVS?? Don't they understand business??

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post #41 of 98 Old 07-30-2014, 05:27 PM
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It is bizarre that the CCI copy restrictions exist on cablecard usage when you consider the only real content they serve to protect (hbo, cinemax, showtime, etc) is usually available within an hour after the end of the original broadcast in "other" places. Don't know why Comcast, Fios, Charter, Cox, TWC, etc think that those of us paying for the content monthly won't just dump the tv portion eventually
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post #42 of 98 Old 07-31-2014, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post
It is bizarre that the CCI copy restrictions exist on cablecard usage when you consider the only real content they serve to protect (hbo, cinemax, showtime, etc) is usually available within an hour after the end of the original broadcast in "other" places. Don't know why Comcast, Fios, Charter, Cox, TWC, etc think that those of us paying for the content monthly won't just dump the tv portion eventually

I believe copy restrictions are set by the content owners, not the re-broadcasters.

One year, SupeBowl was set to "copy never" on cable (still no restrictions over OTA), but that was set by the owner of the content, the NFL.

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #43 of 98 Old 07-31-2014, 10:54 AM
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And you would be incorrect in that assumption, given that TWC, Brighthouse and Cox all set copy-once on a ton of channels that Comcast, Verizon, Charter etc. don't.

The premiums like HBO have their own restrictions, sure. But all the other non-local channels are subject to the decision of the cableCo you're with.
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post #44 of 98 Old 07-31-2014, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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And for a lot of those channels, Comcast IS the content owner
-CNBC
-E!
-Golf Channel
-MSNBC
-NBC Sports
-Syfy
-USA

etc etc

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post #45 of 98 Old 08-01-2014, 03:32 PM
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Alas, probably what's next is going to suck - just plain streaming. It gives the broadcasters the most control over the content and they can force you to watch the stupid commercials.

But I think my media center +CC investment is good for at least the next 5 years, minimum.
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post #46 of 98 Old 08-02-2014, 07:32 AM
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Alas, probably what's next is going to suck - just plain streaming. It gives the broadcasters the most control over the content and they can force you to watch the stupid commercials.

But I think my media center +CC investment is good for at least the next 5 years, minimum.
I agree, if all of this cord cutting stuff takes over and the content creators move to an all-streaming environment, that would be a disappointing future. I like the advantages that come with using a DVR.

Once I record something, I can "consume" it the way I want to. No chance that it will suddenly disappear from availability like Netflix or on-demand often do.

I can also forward through the ads when I want, which Hulu and on-demand don't allow. Fios does allow you to forward at 2x speed using on-demand, but that's not nearly as convenient as pressing the skip forward button a few times.

Plus with WMC and Tivo, you can save your recordings on external HDs to rewatch in the future and you can load the recordings on to a tablet and watch them where you want without worrying about a wifi signal.

I think people that are always going on about how the current environment with the cable companies is bad may not realize that its actually pretty good right now.
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post #47 of 98 Old 08-02-2014, 09:29 AM
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I think people that are always going on about how the current environment with the cable companies is bad may not realize that its actually pretty good right now.
This is exactly right. I actually came to this thread because I was checking to see if there were any recent threads about people jumping ship to cable provider DVRs and I noticed it.

I gripe about WMC not working 100% the way I want 100% of the time, but after looking around, neither does e.g. Cox Contour which I was investigating. I see that people gripe about it quite a bit and my problems with WMC which I've lived with for years are very small potatoes.

I realized I'm happy with what I have, actually very happy both with Cox Internet (they just doubled my speeds, even) and using media center as my DVR.

We may be in a golden age, I think contrary to usual technology trends the future will be worse than the present with regards to home content consumption.
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post #48 of 98 Old 08-02-2014, 02:31 PM
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And you would be incorrect in that assumption, given that TWC, Brighthouse and Cox all set copy-once on a ton of channels that Comcast, Verizon, Charter etc. don't.

The premiums like HBO have their own restrictions, sure. But all the other non-local channels are subject to the decision of the cableCo you're with.
There is a two layer approach going on, the provider and the owner, with the most restrictive limit being the one that is put in place. If the provider normally has everything marked as Copy Freely but the owner wants it marked as Copy Once, it gets marked as Copy Once. If the owner does not care (which means Copy Freely) but the provider marks most things as Copy Once, then it gets marked as Copy Once.


That is why Verizon FiOS (normally Copy Freely) has only the premium channels marked as Copy Once.
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post #49 of 98 Old 08-02-2014, 06:47 PM
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But less and less over the air content is worth watching lately. I hear people mention this "cord cutting" stuff, but more than half of the series I have set to record seem to be on cable channels. Looking through the series I have set, they are mostly on SHO, FX, HBO, AMC, a couple on TNT, SMITH and BBCA and a few Yankee games each week on YES. Of the OTA channels, pretty much only FOX and ABC. If I cut the cord, I would cut off about 75% of what I watch, plus lose the movies on STZ, EPIX and TCM as well as on HBO and SHO.

Has anyone started an "antenna cutting" movement?
I only watch first run episodes of 60 Minutes on CBS and recently watched Cosmos on FOX. I am currently watching nothing on the broadcast channels because 60 Minutes is just showing repeats until the new season starts. I watch everything else on regular and premium cable channels. If I cut the cord, I would decrease my TV consumption by possibly 90% to 100%.

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post #50 of 98 Old 08-06-2014, 12:19 PM
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Alas, probably what's next is going to suck - just plain streaming. It gives the broadcasters the most control over the content and they can force you to watch the stupid commercials.

But I think my media center +CC investment is good for at least the next 5 years, minimum.
I'm in the other camp, the one that got tired of cable monopolies and cable cos dictating my viewing. For a low investment, I purchased both PlayOn and Play ready lifetime licenses. I can "record" any stream (legally), so if Netflix or Hulu removed it, I still have it. Plus, I can transfer it to another device and take it with me.

If any commercials are in the stream, I can fast forward those too.

There are other options too. Eventually, these companies will change their business models, if the market changes. By bowing to them, you're encouraging them to continue their draconian ways.
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post #51 of 98 Old 08-06-2014, 12:45 PM
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I'm in the other camp, the one that got tired of cable monopolies and cable cos dictating my viewing. For a low investment, I purchased both PlayOn and Play ready lifetime licenses. I can "record" any stream (legally), so if Netflix or Hulu removed it, I still have it. Plus, I can transfer it to another device and take it with me.

If any commercials are in the stream, I can fast forward those too.

There are other options too. Eventually, these companies will change their business models, if the market changes. By bowing to them, you're encouraging them to continue their draconian ways.
Can you describe your set up some more? I don't think I've heard of anyone doing that
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post #52 of 98 Old 08-06-2014, 01:26 PM
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...For a low investment, I purchased both PlayOn and Play ready lifetime licenses. I can "record" any stream (legally), so if Netflix or Hulu removed it, I still have it.
I have never heard of these. It sounds interesting, like a DVR for online streams.

What format does it record from Netflix in? Is it HD?

Have you tried to record from other online services like HBOGo, StarzPlay and Showtime Anytime?
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post #53 of 98 Old 08-06-2014, 01:57 PM
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Sure. So there's software called "PlayOn" and a second companion software called "Play Later". They are always going on sale, so there's no need to pay full price for them. You can pay a yearly subscription for each, but it's a MUCH better deal to wait until they're on sale (every other month it seems), and get the lifetime licenses.

PlayOn lets you stream Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, MLB, NHL, NFL (all requiring subscriptions of course), as well as CBS, NBC, and most any other streaming service, inc. YouTube and any streaming video link you can find.

It should be obvious it requires a running computer (we're talking about streaming, duh). Butif you're worried about electricity use, keep in mind, your cable DVR NEVER shuts off , even when you push the power button.

It plays these streams out to a Roku, Xbox, PS3/4, Chromecast, iPad, or Android tablet or phone.

PlayLater works with PlayOn to "record" the streams. These recordings can be kept indefinitely, and copied to any device that can play mp4 files, inc. an iPad or Android device.

Say you watch Blue Bloods, but you don't want to pay for Hulu Plus. You can "record" each episode during the season using PlayLater. As free Hulu pulls episodes (I think they usually only keep 4 at any given time), yours remain on your device. At the end of the season, you can binge watch it if you like. You can also skip the commercials, as you would with any video file.

I have dozens of movies I've "recorded" from Netflix. As Netflix removes them, I get to keep them.

I could, if I wanted, subscribe to HBO for a month, record seasons of HBO series from HBOGO, then cancel HBO and spend a few months watching my recordings.

Then there's Usenet and Torrents, which, contrary to what many people have been brainwashed into thinking, are not all illegal files. There are tons of public domain shows like The Beverly Hillbillies and Gilligan's Island available. No need to subscribe to expanded basic to get TV Land. There are even programs that can automatically search out these shows and download them for you.

Cable in it's present form will continue for some time. Your cable co. gives you a remote control, but the reality is they push the buttons. Personally, I believe streaming is the future. Whether it controls you, or you control it is up to you.

Damn it Chloe, we're running out of time. Use the not a computer device!
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post #54 of 98 Old 08-06-2014, 02:35 PM
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Did you mean "Play Later" instead of "play ready" in your original post?
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post #55 of 98 Old 08-06-2014, 06:31 PM
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Probably. Maybe it was an auto correct thing. Which post number? I can't remember more than like 30 minutes these days.

Damn it Chloe, we're running out of time. Use the not a computer device!
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post #56 of 98 Old 08-07-2014, 06:49 AM
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And all of this requires your HSI to be uncapped of course (i.e. full streaming in lieu of DVR'ing cable). With Comcast that's getting more and more difficult as they expand the cap trials.
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post #57 of 98 Old 08-07-2014, 12:04 PM
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And all of this requires your HSI to be uncapped of course (i.e. full streaming in lieu of DVR'ing cable). With Comcast that's getting more and more difficult as they expand the cap trials.
Do they not allow you to pay extra for more GB's? And if so, which is cheaper: paying for more GB's, or paying for expanded TV service and DVR rentals?

I don't know about Comcast (I'm lucky enough to not live in their service area), but we were paying about $75/mo just for expanded - that's no HBO, Showtime, not even BBCA. I got rid of that and we're down to $35 for TV (we can't receive any OTA signal here).

But if we cancelled the whole TV part, we would "save" about $75. Does Comcast charge $75 for going over the cap?

Actually, a cap would be about the only thing that might get me to return to AT&T - unless they cap also.
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post #58 of 98 Old 08-07-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by leebo View Post
I'm in the other camp, the one that got tired of cable monopolies and cable cos dictating my viewing. For a low investment, I purchased both PlayOn and Play ready lifetime licenses. I can "record" any stream (legally), so if Netflix or Hulu removed it, I still have it. Plus, I can transfer it to another device and take it with me.

If any commercials are in the stream, I can fast forward those too.

There are other options too. Eventually, these companies will change their business models, if the market changes. By bowing to them, you're encouraging them to continue their draconian ways.
I hate watching online network tv because it's choppy flash 720 video with 2.0 stereo through a browser, can't be controlled with a remote, has horrible repeating commercials, not to mention site buffers and crashes. Video On Demand or Apps don't seem any better, except for maybe remote control support. If they ever start doing real 1080p video, 5.1 audio, remote control support, and automatic commercial skipping then I might consider trying it out.

Then there is data usage/caps- the Play On / Play Later model says 1GB per hour of video (can't imagine what kind of picture/audio quality that is). So if I record/watch 10 hours per day, that would be 300GB per month just in "tv"!
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post #59 of 98 Old 08-07-2014, 03:08 PM
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Now you know why companies are salivating at the future of IP delivery of TV content. Not only does it allow them to bypass DVRs and force you to watch commercials again, but with the content owners also serving as ISPs, they can doubly charge you for the same content when watching it causes you to exceed your monthly bandwidth cap. It's a win-win for them and a lose-lose for you, aside from your ability to watch those commercials abroad, unlike the traditional TV model that forces you to watch them at home.
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post #60 of 98 Old 08-07-2014, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post
I hate watching online network tv because it's choppy flash 720 video with 2.0 stereo through a browser, can't be controlled with a remote, has horrible repeating commercials, not to mention site buffers and crashes. Video On Demand or Apps don't seem any better, except for maybe remote control support. If they ever start doing real 1080p video, 5.1 audio, remote control support, and automatic commercial skipping then I might consider trying it out.

Then there is data usage/caps- the Play On / Play Later model says 1GB per hour of video (can't imagine what kind of picture/audio quality that is). So if I record/watch 10 hours per day, that would be 300GB per month just in "tv"!
Sounds like either an ISP issue or a computer issue.
As far as the quality of PlayLater "recordings", they're identical to the source in my experience. It tacks on a message at the beginning of every recording, something like "This recording was made by (your email address), an appearances effort to keep you from sharing them on the Internet.

Like I said, once you "record", you can skip any commercials.

As far as data usage, that's a different issue. I'm talking about taking a stand against control of your TV. I'm getting older, and therefor tired, of these monopolies charging us more and giving us less. I'm doing what I can to give them as few $ as I can.

They gave us cable cards, but made it more complex than the average person was willing to deal with. Now they're working on taking that away, forcing everyone to use one of their boxes.

Netflix is becomming a factor in their revenue, so what do they do? Throttle Netflix.

Data caps are just another method of control - trying to discourage people from cutting the cord.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to use PlayOn or even stream. I'm just saying if you don't make some kind of effort to change the way you get your entertainment, Comcast, et al will continue to turn the screws.
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