Anyone ever wish they did their HTPC right the first time? (or better?) - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 04:29 PM
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I can only imagine what the discussions are like over in candlepowerforums.com....
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post #302 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 CL7 $89.99
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2400 CL11 $$86.99

What if I compare $90 ram from the same manufacturer to $87 ram? Is that silly too?

My point still stands...

2400Mhz ram isn't always faster than 1600Mhz ram. Despite this, you've blindly suggested people "upgrade" to 2400Mhz ram because it's "faster."
This is such BS and you know it. I never once said anyone needed to upgrade to faster RAM or it made any signficant difference. I'm not sure why everyone has their panties in a bunch of ram speeds in this thread for.

I also lol-ed at this post I quoted because those two models of ram are the same batch of manufacture. You know you can reduce 2400mhz to 1600mhz and run a tighter timing right? It's essentially the same stuff and same performance, and for $4 I'm not sure it matters either way. Both are great kits. I would not consider either of those kits cheap either. Gkill is good stuff, and there is certainly a lot of crappier and cheaper ram than that. $90 kit is not a cheap kit.

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post #303 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 04:40 PM
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Mfusick, you have said in this thread that regarding Ajhieb...

1. I have him blocked
2. I do not read his posts
3. I do not respond to his posts

You know you can't stop arguing with him, it's in your nature. Why don't you just own it?
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post #304 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
But seriously, I never said anyone was cheap or had cheap parts, I said I was cheap and bought cheap parts. I used myself as the example and not anyone else. I share my own personal mistakes and regrets, and I never said specifically about anyone else. I believe you are again mistaken about all this. You should go back and re-read all my posts if you don't believe me. They are there still.


First post in the thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
So I'll ask what is it about HTPC that makes people so freakin' cheap? Is it really worth saving that $20 on that suspect PSU? Or the $20 you save by not grabbing that better motherboard? Or faster SSD? How about the CPU? Worth getting a turd?

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Using myself was the best way I could make the suggestion and comments I was making and NOT come off condescending IMO. I never said anyone specifically had cheap parts other than myself, and I made a generally inquiry to the observation I had why such behavior is so prevalent in HTPC, and seemingly absent in many other places. I believe this is true, I don't see the values in the other forums. Most of the other forums on AVS have people that share a common passion with each other and they are all chasing optimal, not minimal. They are all trying to advance something, not reduce it. But with HTPC there is a really serious tendency to go cheap and go very minimalist, and since this clashes with my normal tendency I noticed it and it intrigues me as to why this is the way things are here. Asking why is not offensive, nor was intended to be such. I asked the nicest way I could, using myself as the example.
And people answered the question... several times... nicely even. But you persisted in talking down to the people that tried to provide you with insight into the situation that you had inquired about.


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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
With HTPC $20 is a lot of money, and this has been reinforced by all the comments obviously. But why is $20 so important in an HTPC that you might actually have it and use it for many years, when people will easily blow $20 on the stupidest things in real life ? $20 more for a better projector, or speaker system, or screen, or TV, or subwoofer would be a non factor and no brainer in the the other forums. But $20 for a better PSU or more RAM, or a faster CPU seems like it's nearly EVIL in this forum. The suggestion of any validity to doing anything more than minimalist is obviously offensive in this forum for some reason. How come? What's different here?
It's not rocket science. You have different demographics in the different forums. Generally people that are building dedicated home theaters are spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on them. Simply put, they have lots of money, it's pretty much a prerequisite to building a dedicated home theater. That isn't the case for just a plane old HTPC. Anybody with a few hundred bucks to spare can put together a HTPC. Many of those people don't have thousands laying around to spend on whimsical upgrades.

It's been explained probably a dozen times now. Perhaps if you actually read the responses instead of just responding to what you guess they said, you wouldn't feel compelled to keep repeating the question.
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post #305 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dropkick Murphy View Post
Mfusick, you have said in this thread that regarding Ajhieb...

1. I have him blocked
2. I do not read his posts
3. I do not respond to his posts

You know you can't stop arguing with him, it's in your nature. Why don't you just own it?
I never said I have him blocked. I said I skim or skip his posts and best way to deal with him is just ignore. You are right. I should learn my lesson. I really need to be stricter about this policy.

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post #306 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
This is such BS and you know it. I never once said anyone needed to upgrade to faster RAM or it made any signficant difference. I'm not sure why everyone has their panties in a bunch of ram speeds in this thread for.
Your reading comprehension really leaves a lot to be desired. I said you suggested that people get the 2400Mhz ram over 1600Mhz ram. Are you denying that, or would you like me to go and copy some more of your quotes? I'd be happy to. Just say the word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I also lol-ed at this post I quoted because those two models of ram are the same batch of manufacture. You know you can reduce 2400mhz to 1600mhz and run a tighter timing right? It's essentially the same stuff and same performance, and for $4 I'm not sure it matters either way. Both are great kits. I would not consider either of those kits cheap either. Gkill is good stuff, and there is certainly a lot of crappier and cheaper ram than that. $90 kit is not a cheap kit.
The 1600Mhz CL7 I linked to was the cheapest 8GB pair at Newegg. (that was CL7)
With the 2400Mhz Ram, I simply did a search for 8GB (2x4GB) 2400Mhz. The cheapert came in at $80 and was a brand I'd never heard of (so were the next two cheapest.) First name brand I recognized was Mushkin @ $85 then G.Skill @ $87. If you're suggesting that $87 is expensive, then how can you claim that getting 2400Mhz is a cheap upgrade? Is it expensive or not?

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post #307 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:03 PM
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Perhaps not, but it would allow for repurposing the system in the future.
Not necessarily. A Core 2 Quad Q6600 with DDR2 1066MHz RAM and VelociRaptor HDD or 1st gen Intel X25-E will still be horribly outclassed by a modern $500-600 build. Personally, I'd rather buy/build a more power efficient machine (which incidentally, will likely be faster in real-world use considering the IPC improvements) than repurpose that space heater.

By the way, when the heck did RAM become so expensive? I remember paying just $80-90 for my Kingston 16GB DDR3 1600 CL11 kits. Yes, they're slow. I value motherboard compatibility over speed. They were also a good $50 or so cheaper compared to faster or lower latency RAM. Money which, in my use-case, is better spent on CPU, GPU, more RAM or a bigger SSD.
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post #308 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post
Not necessarily. A Core 2 Quad Q6600 with DDR2 1066MHz RAM and VelociRaptor HDD or 1st gen Intel X25-E will still be horribly outclassed by a modern $500-600 build. Personally, I'd rather buy/build a more power efficient machine (which incidentally, will likely be faster in real-world use considering the IPC improvements) than repurpose that space heater.
Perhaps, but I've saved the $500, repurposed the machine into a personal mail server and moved it into my office where I'm often a bit chilly.
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post #309 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
But seriously, I never said anyone was cheap or had cheap parts, I said I was cheap and bought cheap parts. I used myself as the example and not anyone else. I share my own personal mistakes and regrets, and I never said specifically about anyone else. I believe you are again mistaken about all this. You should go back and re-read all my posts if you don't believe me. They are there still.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post


First post in the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
So I'll ask what is it about HTPC that makes people so freakin' cheap? Is it really worth saving that $20 on that suspect PSU? Or the $20 you save by not grabbing that better motherboard? Or faster SSD? How about the CPU? Worth getting a turd?


Again, he walked right into that one

He literally told me a while back he never said NAS boxes were crap too. I can go quote and link that if he wants. The refusal, and the calling of them crap.

But, he doesn't actually do any of this remember - we are just all out to get him for some odd, unexplainable reason.
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post #310 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
Anyhow, I would think that quantity will always enhance a users experience. Comparing 1600mhz to 2400mhz might not enhance the experience at all though.

That's true to a point but you see drastically diminishing returns after a certain point.

The idea that "more ram is good" implies that you can keep improving forever. It's more accurate to say "not enough ram is bad" once you have "enough" adding more than that will only see a marginal increase in performance. (plus it can slow down things like waking up from hibernation)

The analogy I used to use when teaching was an office.

Your desktop is your RAM (working space for document and applications)
Your filing cabinet is your hard drive (storage for documents and applications that aren't active)
And you are the CPU. (you're the one manipulating everything)

The main problem you run into with regards to quantity of RAM is having to rely on virtual memory (aka the page file) too much.

If you can remember back in school when they had those little tiny desks with the chair attached. They sucked because they just didn't have enough room. You couldn't have a textbook open and a notebook to take notes at the same time. You were constantly shuffling things around in order to work. It's a very inefficient process. When your PC runs out of physical memory it starts using virtual memory. Virtual memory should just be for services that need to be loaded, but aren't actually used much. They get thrown in virtual memory to free up room for more pressing things. If you don't have enough physical memory (the small grade school desk) then your computer starts moving things you are actually working on, into virtual memory. Since virtual memory resides on the hard drive (the file cabinet in our analogy) and the hard drive is several orders of magnitude slower than ram, it makes getting anything done, rather difficult. That's why your computer is slow when you don't have enough ram.

If your desk is big enough to handle everything you are working on at once, then making the desk bigger doesn't really do much good. On the computer there are some incremental benefits as Windows will allocate unused ram for hard drive caching, but even that has a limit. If you stick a TB of ram in your computer windows isn't just going to cache your entire hard drive. So at a certain point adding more ram becomes moot.


From what I've seen most typical HTPC applications don't need a great deal of RAM. 8GB is usually enough for most things. The biggest memory hog I can think of is WMC Extender sessions. Those can chew up a decent chunk of memory and if you have several connected at once, 8GB might not be enough.
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post #311 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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How do you use the ignore feature on the new AVS board? Anyone know ?
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post #312 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:36 PM
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remember - we are just all out to get him for some odd, unexplainable reason.


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post #313 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:36 PM
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How do you use the ignore feature on the new AVS board? Anyone know ?
What's that? I can't hear you.
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post #314 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post
By the way, when the heck did RAM become so expensive? I remember paying just $80-90 for my Kingston 16GB DDR3 1600 CL11 kits. Yes, they're slow. I value motherboard compatibility over speed. They were also a good $50 or so cheaper compared to faster or lower latency RAM. Money which, in my use-case, is better spent on CPU, GPU, more RAM or a bigger SSD.
Yeah. I could be mistaken - or the story wrong - but I heard there was an issue at a DRAM factory a while back that led to an increase in price (similar to the flood that increased HDD prices a while back. Don't know if for the RAM it was a flood, fire, other or all of the above). So that, along with just declining new PC sales - prices increased, and are not going down. I wouldn't be surprised if it was also a little of "prices are high, lets keep them high - gotta get that money" going on.
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post #315 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:42 PM
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That's true to a point but you see drastically diminishing returns after a certain point.


So to sum up everything, that could have been done in the first twelve posts of this thread but which was NEVER going to happen:

yes, "more" and "faster" are technically "better"--in a vacuum, completely out of context. Do they make a difference for a given application? Maybe technically yes. Is the difference noticeable to a human being using the system? If not, then why bother with the "faster" and "more" for the application in question?

crap, I broke my rule.
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post #316 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:44 PM
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I never said anyone was cheap or had cheap parts, I said I was cheap and bought cheap parts. I used myself as the example and not anyone else. I share my own personal mistakes and regrets, and I never said specifically about anyone else...

Using myself was the best way I could make the suggestion and comments I was making and NOT come off condescending IMO. I never said anyone specifically had cheap parts other than myself, and I made a generally inquiry to the observation I had why such behavior is so prevalent in HTPC, and seemingly absent in many other places. I believe this is true, I don't see the values in the other forums. Most of the other forums on AVS have people that share a common passion with each other and they are all chasing optimal, not minimal. They are all trying to advance something, not reduce it. But with HTPC there is a really serious tendency to go cheap and go very minimalist, and since this clashes with my normal tendency I noticed it and it intrigues me as to why this is the way things are here. Asking why is not offensive, nor was intended to be such. I asked the nicest way I could, using myself as the example.

With HTPC $20 is a lot of money, and this has been reinforced by all the comments obviously. But why is $20 so important in an HTPC that you might actually have it and use it for many years, when people will easily blow $20 on the stupidest things in real life ? $20 more for a better projector, or speaker system, or screen, or TV, or subwoofer would be a non factor and no brainer in the the other forums. But $20 for a better PSU or more RAM, or a faster CPU seems like it's nearly EVIL in this forum. The suggestion of any validity to doing anything more than minimalist is obviously offensive in this forum for some reason. Just look at the replies! How come? What's different here?

2 things Mfusick: 1) Why is it so difficult to comprehend that what may be "cheap" and "minimalist" to you is actually optimal to a great many other people, and 2) How can you not recognize you're being condescending when you throw out suggestions like people who prefer budget builds must only do so because they lack self-esteem?

I've been refraining from piling on because I do respect you and appreciate the advice you've given to me and countless others here. But you are condescending. You may not think it because you tend to be less so when you address another poster directly. But when you generalize about all those cheap misguided people out there who lack the self-esteem to build their HTPC exactly as you would, who are the rest of us supposed to think you are talking about except us? You aren't usually insulting when you address someone directly (and from what I've seen usually only after you've been provoked repeatedy), so I'll give you that. But en masse you insult pretty much constantly.

Which to be honest, I don't even care about. Personally I think an internet forum should be a free-for-all and I tend to think we have too many self-appointed civility cops already. I certainly don't take it personally. But your denial in not even being able to recognize that you're being condescending to others -- that's a bit hard to take. I like you but you should aspire to a little more self-awareness and "own your sh*t" (as my wife would say). This "I was only talking about myself" business 10+ pages into this thread is just lame.
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post #317 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:49 PM
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In a discussion of how much hardware one needs in their HTPC for a fast fluid stutter free experience madVR invariably comes up. madVR is something of a corner case but it always gets trotted out as to why we need to plan around beefy hardware for HTPC.

Truth is madVR can be a bottomless pit in terms of hardware requirements. That is a case where almost always more is better at least on the GPU side. So it is a big straw man. It is interesting that almost no one on this forum actually talks about using madVR for what is perhaps its most interesting capability and one that doesn't have big hardware requirements. Display color correction with a 3D LUT is one hell of a neat trick. Calibration with a 3D LUT can turn a ho hum display into a superior one. It can't fix low native contrast but it can make color nearly perfect.

Even a Haswell i3 with integrated graphics is enough GPU to greatly upgrade a display with average color response. I use the Lumagen Radiance to do that so it corrects for multiple inputs but for the price of entry madVR and Argyll are an amazing tandem with relatively modest hardware requirements, the single biggest requirement is spending some time sorting it out. Take a look at the Display Calibrations forum there is a lot of real experience there using madVR in this way.
3DLUT color correction is definitely my favorite feature of madVR. I upgraded my Zacate (E350) HTPC to a AMD A8-6500 so I could utilize madVR. I can do a little bit of the upscaling but I don't really care for those features that much since the high end of that is pricy on the hardware and power consumption. I also switched from XBMC to JRiver for the native madVR support. ~$250 in hardware and software got me the features of a $700 eeColor LUT box. I do eventually want to get a eeColor LUT box so my other sources can be color corrected but those are mostly just for video games.

My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)

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post #318 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:53 PM
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How do you use the ignore feature on the new AVS board? Anyone know ?
Click on a person's name -> View Public Profile -> User lists -> Add to ignore list.

You're welcome

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post #319 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 06:03 PM
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Perhaps, but I've saved the $500, repurposed the machine into a personal mail server and moved it into my office where I'm often a bit chilly.
That's only if you hadn't overbuilt and spent an extra $500 or more when you built it in the first place. Otherwise, it's a wash. Unless you need to support a whole bunch of clients, you could still have repurposed a less expensive Celeron/Pentium Wolfdale build as a personal mail server (and for a 24/7 build, it'll cost you less in terms of electricity, too). Alas, it wouldn't have worked quite as well as a space heater.

I live in SoCal so I can do without the cost of electricity required for additional cooling.
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post #320 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 06:28 PM
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I'm going to be bolding a lot of the italic, since it's clearly used to deliver a point!

You guys need to develop a thicker skin first and foremost, because this is pretty shocking. Seriously!

Science forum for HTPC's, hmmm. It's more like a playground for people constantly wanting a "one-up" on another opponent.

Faster RAM... Mfusick made some suggestions why it may help, but for F**K sake, can nobody actually work out for themselves whether fast RAM would actually be beneficial for them? Spoon Feeding, all the way? Seriously? It shouldn't need to come to that. Do some thorough research first!! Not once in this thread (near the beginning) was i ever inspired to buy faster RAM. Ridiculous.

Again, lets bring it back to the science forum... I do science, in fact science and chemistry (albeit, my chemistry is not as good as it used to be), and I reiterate, this is all getting very pathetic.

Sorry for the over-use of the italics. It makes for annoying reading though doesn't it? Especially in the context you read it in.

I won't bother emphasizing much further, but I will point out a few things for the rest of this thread - thick skins, research, common sense & stop the spoon feeding arguments - very pathetic!
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post #321 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 06:43 PM
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I'm going to be bolding a lot of the italic, since it's clearly used to deliver a point!

You guys need to develop a thicker skin first and foremost, because this is pretty shocking. Seriously!

Science forum for HTPC's, hmmm. It's more like a playground for people constantly wanting a "one-up" on another opponent.

Faster RAM... Mfusick made some suggestions why it may help, but for F**K sake, can nobody actually work out for themselves whether fast RAM would actually be beneficial for them? Spoon Feeding, all the way? Seriously? It shouldn't need to come to that. Do some thorough research first!! Not once in this thread (near the beginning) was i ever inspired to buy faster RAM. Ridiculous.

Again, lets bring it back to the science forum... I do science, in fact science and chemistry (albeit, my chemistry is not as good as it used to be), and I reiterate, this is all getting very pathetic.

Sorry for the over-use of the italics. It makes for annoying reading though doesn't it? Especially in the context you read it in.

I won't bother emphasizing much further, but I will point out a few things for the rest of this thread - thick skins, research, common sense & stop the spoon feeding arguments - very pathetic!
I don't think anyone here was wanting to be spoonfed.

Perhaps you're not familiar with the courtroom maxim "Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to."

I won't speak for staknhalo but I strongly suspect his line of questioning was following that maxim. Speaking for myself, I don't ever ask questions to Mfusick that I don't already know the answer to. I'm not asking for me I'm asking for him.

If Mfusick goes into a conversation with a preconceived notion, you'll never change his mind with facts and figures, anecdotes or statistics. If his experience has lead him to believe something, he will cling to that belief through thick and thin. However, on occasion, you can walking him down the path to truth, by asking simple questions. Now thus far it hasn't exactly worked out since every time he starts to get close to a little enlightenment, he gets spooked and runs away, but I get the feeling he at least saw the truth even if he didn't want to accept it.
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post #322 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 06:45 PM
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Sleeping Dogs: Minimum FPS
Spoiler!

Like the average frame rates, it seems that 1333 MHz is a bust, 1866 MHz+ does the business, and 2133 MHz is the sweet spot.
To be honest, this is the least compelling argument I've seen for faster RAM. 21% faster might sound nice and all but you're still getting less than 6 fps. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to game at just 6 fps. Unless the price difference is really small (less than $5), I'd rather put that money towards a discrete GPU.
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post #323 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:00 PM
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I understand you and staknhalo's line of questioning (never heard of the official courtroom terms), and i've labelled it spoon-feeding arguments for now - it seems pretty precise to me.

Science should not be like this, put it forward correctly, all of you!

If we all carry on like a bunch of one-upers, all you're going to get is a pathetic argument about who's literature is better that the other. That gets you absolutely nowhere! True?

Mfusick may not (or have some) have the same knowledge as you, but from what i've read he cant be that dumb either. You'll get different types of everything.

1. you're going to get an HTPCer that wants some extra oomph, simply because they want gaming.
2. you're going to get an HTPCer that wants some extra... ok I've decided this is leading down the spoon feeding route, and - pathetic.

See where i'm going? You have your needs? staknhalo has his needs? we've established now, that we don't need Mfusick to establish your needs for you? I hope? Otherwise, he should start charging for a service he's providing you! *pinch of salt*
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post #324 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:09 PM
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I really, REALLY hate to go here, but:

* is it my imagination, or is this the AV Science forum only because those nasty Brits already took over avforums, and der Germans then took the next best av-forums? And that "science" never factored into it other than some way to provide characters in a URL that allowed the URL to exist independently? If so, then enough with the "but this is SCIENCE!" thing.

* science is a process, and it starts with observation and measurement. So if the observation and measurement says that a particular RAM stick is 1% faster than another RAM stick, it's science.

yeah. I really, really hated pointing that out.

Of course, the social scientists measure the human reaction (or lack thereof) to that 1% difference, so that's science...
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post #325 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:10 PM
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I understand you and staknhalo's line of questioning (never heard of the official courtroom terms), and i've labelled it spoon-feeding arguments for now - it seems pretty precise to me.

Science should not be like this, put it forward correctly, all of you!

If we all carry on like a bunch of one-upers, all you're going to get is a pathetic argument about who's literature is better that the other. That gets you absolutely nowhere! True?

Mfusick may not (or have some) have the same knowledge as you, but from what i've ready he cant be that dumb either. You'll get different types of everything.

1. you're going to get an HTPCer that wants some extra oomph, simply because they want gaming.
2. you're going to get an HTPCer that wants some extra... ok I've decided this is leading down the spoon feeding route, and - pathetic.

See where i'm going? You have your needs? staknhalo has his needs? we've established now, that we don't need Mfusick to establish your needs for you? I hope? Otherwise, he should start charging for a service he's providing you! *pinch of salt*
No; we need Mfusick to understand not everyone does things the same way he does, or is wrong for doing things in a way other than he does. We also prefer it if he didn't call any device he doesn't use, like, prefer or understand crap/garbage/etc (that's seems to be his only criteria for doing so); and would also like it if he didn't constantly state anyone who doesn't do things his way/uses what he uses is either 1)lacking self-esteem 2)a coward 3)cheap 4)an idiot 5)whatever else he is on record as saying.

He constantly does this in almost every thread he starts - he alienates a broad range of people with sweeping, broad accusations/insults. Even though he denies it - it's all in his post history for anyone to go back and see. And he must forget so, as he tells people to go back and check his post history to show he doesn't do this - it's one of the easiest ways to prove your point against him/he is his own worst enemy. Either that, or he just doesn't think anyone will go back and check/call him out on it.

Now, he has every right to alienate people, be wrong, and say whatever he wants. Just as much of a right we have to challenge him and call him out on it when he does so.

If he doesn't like being called out and proven wrong over and over - he can 1)change the way he posts/change what-or-how he says things 2)stop posting altogether 3)learn to deal with what comes along with the territory if he wants to 'keep on keeping on' - if you will.

And it's not like it's only me or ajhieb are calling him out on this - sure we might be the most persistent/vocal - but the amount of people calling him out in this thread alone is kinda evident we aren't just making all this up about him. He has a problem or does this intentionally - I couldn't say which - or even care anymore which it is - but I'll continue to call him out when he makes broad/sweeping insults at people and/or their ways.

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post #326 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:20 PM
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No; we need Mfusick to understand not everyone does things the same way he does, or is wrong for doing things in a way other than he does. We also prefer it if he didn't call any device he doesn't use, like or prefer crap (that's his only criteria for doing so); and would also like it if he didn't constantly state anyone who doesn't do things his way/uses what he uses is either 1)lacking self-esteem 2)a coward 3)cheap 4)an idiot 5)whatever else he is on record as saying.

He constantly does this in almost every thread he starts - he alienates a broad range of people with sweeping, broad accusations/insults. Even though he denies it - it's all in his post history for anyone to go back and see (and he must forget so, as he tells people to go back and check his post history to show he doesn't do this).

Now, he has every right to alienate people, be wrong, and say whatever he wants. Just as much of a right we have to challenge him and call him out when he does so.

If he doesn't like being called out and proven wrong - he can 1)change the way he posts/what he says 2)stop posting 3)learn to deal with what comes along with the territory if he wants to keep on keeping on, if you will.
I've usually bailed out of the threads i've seen when they've come to alienate Mfusick, simply because I don't know everything about him.

Science typically shouldn't exclude people on how they feel about one another either.

I will re-stress, thickers skins needed? I say thicker skins because his fleeting statements are nothing. Gee-whiz! He loves a nice spec'd PC, it's really not the end of the world. He might recommend something on his experience, likewise I would too!

If i'm wrong - my thick skinned science way of thinking appreciates being corrected! In fact, I WOULD LOVE TO BE CORRECTED, my science decisions have big consequences (money/safety wise)!
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post #327 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:29 PM
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I've usually bailed out of the threads i've seen when they've come to alienate Mfusick, simply because I don't know everything about him.

Science typically shouldn't exclude people on how they feel about one another either.

I will re-stress, thickers skins needed? I say thicker skins because his fleeting statements are nothing. Gee-whiz! He loves a nice spec'd PC, it's really not the end of the world. He might recommend something on his experience, likewise I would too!

If i'm wrong - my thick skinned science way of thinking appreciates being corrected! In fact, I WOULD LOVE TO BE CORRECTED, my science decisions have big consequences (money/safety wise)!

Sure, I could ignore him. That is another option for me. And I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with him/see the fallacies in what he says who do. But when he makes 13 new threads a week it seems (or feels), doing exactly what I describe above; I chose the option of calling him out on it. It also has the benefit of preventing anyone who just happens to stop in and read his post/topic/whatever from believing it - thus, hopefully stopping the spread of FUD to others. If it even leads to just 1 person who might have believed him - to actually realizing he's just spewing nonsense - then it's worth it IMO.
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post #328 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:31 PM
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That's true to a point but you see drastically diminishing returns after a certain point.

The idea that "more ram is good" implies that you can keep improving forever. It's more accurate to say "not enough ram is bad" once you have "enough" adding more than that will only see a marginal increase in performance. (plus it can slow down things like waking up from hibernation)

The analogy I used to use when teaching was an office.

Your desktop is your RAM (working space for document and applications)
Your filing cabinet is your hard drive (storage for documents and applications that aren't active)
And you are the CPU. (you're the one manipulating everything)

The main problem you run into with regards to quantity of RAM is having to rely on virtual memory (aka the page file) too much.

If you can remember back in school when they had those little tiny desks with the chair attached. They sucked because they just didn't have enough room. You couldn't have a textbook open and a notebook to take notes at the same time. You were constantly shuffling things around in order to work. It's a very inefficient process. When your PC runs out of physical memory it starts using virtual memory. Virtual memory should just be for services that need to be loaded, but aren't actually used much. They get thrown in virtual memory to free up room for more pressing things. If you don't have enough physical memory (the small grade school desk) then your computer starts moving things you are actually working on, into virtual memory. Since virtual memory resides on the hard drive (the file cabinet in our analogy) and the hard drive is several orders of magnitude slower than ram, it makes getting anything done, rather difficult. That's why your computer is slow when you don't have enough ram.

If your desk is big enough to handle everything you are working on at once, then making the desk bigger doesn't really do much good. On the computer there are some incremental benefits as Windows will allocate unused ram for hard drive caching, but even that has a limit. If you stick a TB of ram in your computer windows isn't just going to cache your entire hard drive. So at a certain point adding more ram becomes moot.


From what I've seen most typical HTPC applications don't need a great deal of RAM. 8GB is usually enough for most things. The biggest memory hog I can think of is WMC Extender sessions. Those can chew up a decent chunk of memory and if you have several connected at once, 8GB might not be enough.
Great post. I actually like the analogy of the school desks
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post #329 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:31 PM
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See where i'm going? You have your needs? staknhalo has his needs? we've established now, that we don't need Mfusick to establish your needs for you? I hope? Otherwise, he should start charging for a service he's providing you! *pinch of salt*
No we don't. My needs and staknhalo's needs are already well accounted for. He's not providing a service for us. We're providing a service for him. (a better understanding of how PC's work) Granted it appears to be a service that he has no interest in, but as they say, you can lead a horse to water...

And history is littered with scientist arguing, fighting and being catty. Hell if one of them wasn't in a wheelchair I suspect Hawking and Susskind would have been throwing elbows off the top rope.

But I agree to a point because if you look at this thread in a vacuum, there are probably some reactions that are a little overboard. But we don't exist in a vacuum. Mfusick has been spreading misinformation for as long as I've been active on these boards. Hell, do a google search on his username... he has the same M.O. on dozens of different forums (some that he's been banned from) His condescending remarks, patronizing internet memes, and lazy research are all annoying to me, but I can look past all of that. What I can't abide is his constant stream of factually incorrect statements, and generally bad advice. Sure, he's been known to give individuals some good buying tips on occasion, and some people are quite pleased with the results of following his advice, but when you get away from a few specific instances and look at his posts in general, he has two traits that invalidate nearly everything he writes...

1) He over generalizes (often based on nothing but his own limited experience) A handful of people exhibit behavior "X" mfusick wants to know why so many people exhibit behavior "X" or Widget "Y improves performance for "Z" mfusick assumes Widget "Y" improves performance for A, B and C

2) He relies on hyperbole. 2% difference between X and Y? according to mfusick Y is definitively crap, junk or garbage.

Find a thread that he's started that doesn't contain a healthy dose of broad generalization, combined with heavy use of hyperbole. You'll be searching for quite a while

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post #330 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:40 PM
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I've usually bailed out of the threads i've seen when they've come to alienate Mfusick, simply because I don't know everything about him.

Science typically shouldn't exclude people on how they feel about one another either.

I will re-stress, thickers skins needed? I say thicker skins because his fleeting statements are nothing. Gee-whiz! He loves a nice spec'd PC, it's really not the end of the world. He might recommend something on his experience, likewise I would too!

If i'm wrong - my thick skinned science way of thinking appreciates being corrected! In fact, I WOULD LOVE TO BE CORRECTED, my science decisions have big consequences (money/safety wise)!
I'm not trying to exclude mfusick. I'm trying to educate him.

He can get excited about his PC all he wants. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. The issues arise when he starts making statements that are patently false. And I agree about being corrected. I hate to find out that I was wrong about something, but I'm just as happy to know now that I'm right. You know who doesn't like to be corrected? Mfusick. That's why these threads turn into 15 page fiascoes, because he simple refuses to ever change his mind about anything despite a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

As far as his experience goes, that's great and all, but part of science is recognizing that sometimes your own experiences don't always apply to everything. While I've been to over half the states and commonwealths in this great country of ours, I haven't ever left the continental United States. Based on my own experience, I live on a flat plane, not a round planet. I have to accept the evidence from others to accept that my experience is not only invalid, but categorically wrong.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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