Anyone ever wish they did their HTPC right the first time? (or better?) - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 09:12 PM
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Beyond chipset spec ram speeds can cause instability

It does not always cause it nor is it guaranteed, but if you don't believe me search technet for ntoskrnl bsods and see when people are asked to change disable their xmp profiles. Just like CPU over clocking, doesn't necessitate instability but sure can be the cause of it

Overbuilding ssds based on your recommendations doesn't lead to instability, just doesn't get you any increased performance for managing HDD storage arrays
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post #212 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok I've seen this ram speed nonsense said a few times so I guess it's time to address it. Buying high quality mainstream ram from a great manufacturer and a model of ram that's intended to be reasonably compatible with your motherboard and CPU is not at all detrimental to your reliability or simplicity. In fact it's my opinion doing anything otherwise is simply idiotic. Buying 1066 MHz or 1333mhz memory for a motherboard and CPU that supports 2400mhz+ does not increase your reliability in any meaningful way and it only serves to limit the performance of your system. In most cases the cost difference is also very small which further makes the choice for the crappier ram even more stupid.

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post #213 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Secondly, my question was specifically how does choosing better hardware decrease reliability or simplicity? My thinking is it does not in any meaningful way. Buying a better psu, or motherboard, or CPU, or SSD, or ram does not decrease your reliability in any meaningful way I am aware of. Drivers for an i5/i7 seem as stable as those for an i3 or Pentium/celeron. Drivers for a superior samsung PRO SSD seem as reliable as those for lesser models, actually warranty and reliability are seemingly increased if anything. I'm not aware of any significant differences with higher end Z series motherboards that feature increased functionality and performance versus lesser models on reliability either. Nor the same for a nicer sleeved cable, more efficient, modular PSU- if anything these come with like double the warranty and increased power savings and expansion options.

I don't agree with you.
Oh... so now you want to differentiate things with "in a meaningful way."

Still waiting for your proof that increasing the RAM speed on a HTPC will impact the build positively in any meaningful way.

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post #214 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Ok I've seen this ram speed nonsense said a few times so I guess it's time to address it. Buying high quality mainstream ram from a great manufacturer and a model of ram that's intended to be reasonably compatible with your motherboard and CPU is not at all detrimental to your reliability or simplicity. In fact it's my opinion doing anything otherwise is simply idiotic
Are you going to actually address it? Or just make anecdotes?

Do I need to post instances where it did matter from sevenforums or technet? If I post them would you read them?
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post #215 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Ok I've seen this ram speed nonsense said a few times so I guess it's time to address it. Buying high quality mainstream ram from a great manufacturer and a model of ram that's intended to be reasonably compatible with your motherboard and CPU is not at all detrimental to your reliability or simplicity. In fact it's my opinion doing anything otherwise is simply idiotic. Buying 1066 MHz or 1333mhz memory for a motherboard and CPU that supports 2400mhz+ does not increase your reliability in any meaningful way and it only serves to limit the performance of your system. In most cases the cost difference is also very small which further makes the choice for the crappier ram even more stupid.
How much (in your esteemed opinion) does it limit performance on an HTPC?

How is that decrease in performance going to translate to the user experience, in a meaningful way?

By the way... I like how you go about making it sound like someone else has made some crazy assertion, and you're going to definitely debunk said notion. And instead of bringing anything of value to the discussion... you just say it's wrong. You don't really bring any evidence to back up your claim. You don't bring any evidence to refute the other claim. You just start throwing out insults.

But we did at least finally get to the root of the matter... your elitism. You believe that people that buy slower ram are "idiotic." You think they' are "stupid." At least those people give a reason why they are making the choices that are. (it's cheaper) and that isn't up for debate in the majority of cases. (sure, you can catch the faster stuff on sale on occasion, but then I don't necessarily disagree with buying the faster stuff) But your whole reasoning behind spending the extra money in the first place is some myth about it being faster or a better value.

You don't provide anything to justify that claim.

And it is wrong. You're wrong.


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post #216 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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For all intensive purposes you are on my ignore list; as I explained in the PM messages I rarely read everything you say or do I care to even comment as I have no intentions or desires to argue and debate with you. There's little to be gained so the best way to win is not to play. I'm truly sorry if this upsets you but as I also explained in the same PM the AVS forum is a hobby for me that I do because I enjoy it but my time is limited and better spent in other areas. I do like talking about the tech, but a lot less so talking about semantics between you and I. If you can't understand or see how faster ram speed and lower CAS and higher quality ram can improve CPU and iGPU performance then I'd point you towards google to find that answer. It's not hard to find that answer. How about instead of my wasting my time trying to convince you that instead you prove to me otherwise? It seems like it's more important to you than it is to me, which is odd considering I'm right about this. I'm not wasting my time arguing with you for no reason anymore if there is nothing to be gained. Your posting style in general isn't respectful, or kind, or even cordial so therefore you are unworthy of the effort of a proper response.

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post #217 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
For all intensive purposes you are on my ignore list; as I explained in the PM messages I rarely read everything you say or do I care to even comment as I have no intentions or desires to argue and debate with you. There's little to be gained so the best way to win is not to play. I'm truly sorry if this upsets you but as I also explained in the same PM the AVS forum is a hobby for me that I do because I enjoy it but my time is limited and better spent in other areas. I do like talking about the tech, but a lot less so talking about semantics between you and I. If you can't understand or see how faster ram speed and lower CAS and higher quality ram can improve CPU and iGPU performance then I'd point you towards google to find that answer. It's not hard to find that answer. How about instead of my wasting my time trying to convince you that instead you prove to me otherwise? It seems like it's more important to you than it is to me, which is odd considering I'm right about this. I'm not wasting my time arguing with you for no reason anymore if there is nothing to be gained. Your posting style in general isn't respectful, or kind, or even cordial so therefore you are unworthy of the effort of a proper response.
In other words...

Since you don't agree with me and actually can provide sound reasoning and a testable hypothesis in a science forum I would rather act like you don't exist.

Or put another way.... Some people in this forum are content with spewing ridiculous misinformation like its gospel while calling other people "garbage" or "trash" or that their idea should be "killed with fire". And I guess when they are called on it by the community to provide actual factual data to back up said ridiculous misinformation they complain to the mods and tuck themselves inside their shell instead of answering the question... in a science forum nonetheless.
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post #218 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 10:24 PM
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Serious question to all - would increased RAM speed/tighter timings do anything noticeable for transcoding or MadVR? Like, aside from increasing the benchmark score of the PC. I don't do any of that with an HTPC, so I have no clue. I couldn't see how it would though. I was thinking maybe it could help with buffering/the way some transcodes are stored in 'chunks' by either MB or Plex (forget which one does that). I would suspect if any performance increase, it would be highly negligible/virtually unnoticeable. Curious if this is the case or not.

I know in gaming, you can hope for maybe 5-10 FPS increase; but mainly, faster RAM will help you with overclocking the CPU.

If I'm not mistaken, for my HTPC (again, that doesn't do MadVR or transcoding) - faster RAM would lead to a theoretically increased (how much - probably negligible - but an increase nonetheless) benchmark number produced for my HTPC. That's literally inconsequential for my HTPC or any like it. It wouldn't provide any noticeable performance/quality increase in listening to music/watching MP4 or recorded TV videos/recording TV. So I fail to see how I would have been better off buying faster RAM.

Am I correct in all this? And like I said (I don't believe so, but as I don't do them, I can't say for sure), curious about the transcoding/MadVR question.
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post #219 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
For all intensive intents and purposes you are on my ignore list; as I explained in the PM messages I rarely read everything you say or do I care to even comment as I have no intentions or desires to argue and debate with you. There's little to be gained so the best way to win is not to play. I'm truly sorry if this upsets you but as I also explained in the same PM the AVS forum is a hobby for me that I do because I enjoy it but my time is limited and better spent in other areas. I do like talking about the tech, but a lot less so talking about semantics between you and I. If you can't understand or see how faster ram speed and lower CAS and higher quality ram can't improve CPU and iGPU performance then I'd point you towards google to find that answer. It's not hard to find that answer. How about instead of my wasting my time trying to convince you that instead you prove to me otherwise? It seems like it's more important to you than it is to me, which is odd considering I'm right about this. I'm not wasting my time arguing with you for no reason anymore if there is nothing to be gained. Your posting style in general isn't respectful, or kind, or even cordial so therefore you are unworthy of the effort of a proper response.
Fixed that for you.

Actually you explained that you rarely read everything anyone says and you basically just skim posts "to get the gist." I'm guessing I'm not the only one that finds that insulting.

I think if you'll look at the majority of my posts here I treat most people with a great deal of respect. I do my best to start off treating everyone with respect, but some people go out of their way (such as yourself) to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they don't deserve my respect. First and foremost, you disrespect hundreds if not thousands of people on here every time (which is often) you make your condescending, elitist comments, putting down the people that don't do things the way you think they should be done.

Furthermore, you continue, despite being called out on it by several people around here on several occasions to spout off your opinion as if it is a fact. Which is further compounded by the fact that your opinions are often categorically wrong. Sure you're entitled to your opinion, and to a degree, even entitled to share it, but what you're not entitled to do is to share it as if it is fact. This is a science forum. Your opinion means nothing when the evidence is to the contrary.

As far as faster ram goes, once again the difference between you and I is I actually have an understanding of how PC's work. You have some superficial knowledge, and you try and extrapolate from that in ways that aren't correct. I know how a PC works. I know what memory is, how it works, and how it is accessed. More importantly to this conversation I know how it interacts with other components of a PC, and I know what things will be affected by memory and what won't.

What you know is that PC2400 is faster than PC1600 memory. You think that since memory can impact system performance that faster memory will make any/every PC faster. And what you think is wrong. Increasing the speed of the memory is only going to have a meaningful impact on tasks that are doing heavy reads or writes to system memory. It will only have a really significant impact on applications that are actually memory-bound and limited by the speed of the memory. Very few things you are likely to do on an HTPC are going to be heavily reading or writing from memory. And nothing I can think of on an HTPC is going to actually be memory bound. The limiting factor on almost all PC applications will be either CPU, Disk or User bound. I'd use an analogy to make it easier to understand, but I know that you won't read it, and even if you did, you'd just claim you didn't understand anyway. But if you had bothered to read what I've actually written and address what I've actually said, you'd know that I agree that faster RAM can make a difference in some systems. No doubt about that. What I'm saying is that it won't make a meaningful difference on HTPC systems, and I'm confident about that because frankly I know more about this stuff than you do. I have more experience with it. I've been doing it longer. I've had more exposure to it, and I actually have a working knowledge of it. I didn't just do something a couple of times, and then try and pass myself off as an expert.

And as I stated earlier in my response to your PM, if you're not going to go to the trouble of reading my posts thoroughly, then don't comment on them. If you're not willing to even listen to what I have to say, then don't bother to respond. I don't need the internet equivalent of some guy standing there while I'm talking saying "uh huh." just waiting for his turn to talk again. No matter how far off base the things are that you write, I still take the time to read them all and address them. If you're not willing to do the same in return, then you've proven beyond the shadow of a doubt you don't deserve my respect.

There are plenty of people on this forum with whom I disagree with often, and sometimes vehemently. But I still have respect for most of them as they always make an honest attempt to engage in a discussion, and are open minded enough to at least read the information put in front of them, and to provide inofmration of their own to back up their assertions when called upon to do so. I respect those people a great deal.

But your insistence on spreading misinformation is a plague on this board, and I can only hope one day you learn to see the error of your ways. This is the A/V Science forums. Opinions are welcome, but only when presented as such.

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post #220 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by staknhalo View Post
Serious question to all - would increased RAM speed do anything noticeablefor transcoding or MadVR? Like, aside from increasing the benchmark score of the PC. I don't do any of that with an HTPC, so I have no clue. I couldn't see how though.

I know in gaming, you can hope for maybe 5-10 FPS increase; but mainly, faster RAM will help you with overclocking the CPU.

If I'm not mistaken, for my HTPC (again, that doesn't do MadVR or transcoding) - faster RAM would lead to a theoretically increased (how much - probably negligible - but an increase nonetheless) benchmark number produced for my HTPC. That's literally inconsequential for my HTPC or any like it. It wouldn't provide any noticeable performance/quality increase in listening to music/watching MP4 or recorded TV videos/recording TV.

Am I correct in all this? And like I said (I don't believe so, but as I don't do them, I can't say for sure), curious about the transcoding/MadVR question.
As far as transcoding goes, it will have a very small impact. Transcoding is CPU bound. From the benchmarks I've seen the difference it will make is going to be in the 5% range, and often less than that. It won't make a bit of difference on a single stream, and it's unlikely to make the difference between being able to transcode n and n+1 streams. If you differentiate between transcoding (realtime) and re-encoding, then things may change a little bit. You're 5% difference could translate to an earlier completion time, but depending on how long the encode takes in the first place, that may not be a significant difference. If you're using QuickSync, it gets a little tougher to tell. My understanding is that QuickSync is offloading a lot of the operations onto a separate execution unit. So while it still might be CPU bound, the result of that won't be as obvious if you were to look in Task Manager for instance. (none of the cores will be close to being pegged) however, in some cases depending on your settings QuickSync can actually be I/O bound. Either way, it isn't memory bound, so memory speed increase isn't going to make much of an impact.

I'm not really sure about MadVR, as I have only a tiny amount of experience with it (@renethx would probably be the best to ask about it) but I think it is more dependent on the GPU. This is going to be sort of a gray area because memory speed could have a significant impact on speed if you're using an integrated GPU as it's shared memory, but if you're running MadVR my understanding is that you should probably be running a discrete video card in the first place. So it may be a moot point as well there too. If you are running a discrete GPU then the memory speed, could have a slight impact on things, but again, it seems unlikely that it will be a difference make in terms of what MadVR will or won't be able to do.

As far as other typical things like recorded TV or listening to music... absolutely no impact at all.

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post #221 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 11:04 PM
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The only htpc related reason for faster ram falls in the category of running madvr on integrated graphics, but no longer applies when you add a dgpu

Essentially you fall into that category when you are purchasing amd (which people hardly ever recommend to begin with) to run madvr (at which point dgpus are still required for full levels)
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post #222 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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In other words...

Since you don't agree with me and actually can provide sound reasoning and a testable hypothesis in a science forum I would rather act like you don't exist.

Or put another way.... Some people in this forum are content with spewing ridiculous misinformation like its gospel while calling other people "garbage" or "trash" or that their idea should be "killed with fire". And I guess when they are called on it by the community to provide actual factual data to back up said ridiculous misinformation they complain to the mods and tuck themselves inside their shell instead of answering the question... in a science forum nonetheless.

Again this is horse manure and a big crock of feces.

First, and again I have nothing to prove to you and no desire to engage in a debate fueled by personal feelings or semantics.

Secondly, and most importantly I was not suggesting every HTPC need be outfitted with the highest end premium memory, rather I was simply debunking the notion being suggested that premium memory somehow lowered system reliability. I'm calling BS on that. Don't twist my words about this.

Third, your point would be better received by everyone including myself without the continued personal attacks. Being nice doesn't hurt your credibility, but doing otherwise certainly does.

And fourth and lastly if you don't understand how faster premium memory with lower latency can improve PC performance and also iGPU graphics and video performance then I'd suggest you use google to figure it out because I'm not going to waste my time on you or ajhieb any longer. I'm right about this and there's plenty of information out there that proves it; I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you just because you want to be a PITA. I dare you to prove that premium memory with faster clock speed and lower latency does not have any improvement in PC performance or offer any graphics performance benefits. I'm right. You are wrong. The end.

Also, please keep in mind I'm suggesting and always have been suggesting that better ram is often a really small difference in cost. If it's not not nearly the same cost then I'm happy to admit the performance benefits might not be worth the extra cost for those on a tight budget. But this is a lot different than you suggesting there is no difference or performance improvement, or faster/better premium ram is less stable and unreliable, or that cheaper slower lower grade ram is somehow magically more reliable. Please don't exaggerate or artificially create things you think I say or might believe just to argue against that simply because you want to argue. I have no time or tolerance for this either.

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post #223 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 11:34 PM
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@Mfusick , will you tell me how/where faster RAM will specifically improve the performance on my HTPC outside of a possible benchmark number increase - something I could notice in use/viewing and say "Hey, yeah, this is better"?

Edit: I Google'd it and can't find anything. That's why I'm asking.
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post #224 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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The only htpc related reason for faster ram falls in the category of running madvr on integrated graphics, but no longer applies when you add a dgpu

Essentially you fall into that category when you are purchasing amd (which people hardly ever recommend to begin with) to run madvr (at which point dgpus are still required for full levels)
This is a little short sighted don't you think? There's a myriad of other ways higher quality ram might benefit PC performance. How much improvement and if it's worth it is another subject but suggesting it's doesn't exist is inaccurate.

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post #225 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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@Mfusick , will you tell me how/where faster RAM will specifically improve the performance on my HTPC outside of a possible benchmark number increase - something I could notice in use/viewing and say "Hey, yeah, this is better"?

Edit: I Google'd it and can't find anything. That's why I'm asking.
It's 3am here and I need sleep but I just saw this and I'll be happy to answer in the morning. I just wanted let you know quickly I'm not ignoring you but it's late and I must retire for a while.

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post #226 of 335 Old 08-07-2014, 11:59 PM
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And fourth and lastly if you don't understand how faster premium memory with lower latency can improve PC performance and also iGPU graphics and video performance then I'd suggest you use google to figure it out because I'm not going to waste my time on you or ajhieb any longer. I'm right about this and there's plenty of information out there that proves it; I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you just because you want to be a PITA. I dare you to prove that premium memory with faster clock speed and lower latency does not have any improvement in PC performance or offer any graphics performance benefits. I'm right. You are wrong. The end.
Ahhh back to the strawman again. We're not talking about PC performance... we're talking about HTPC performance. HTPCs do different stuff than normal PCs (you know that, right?) and what everyone here wants to know is what HTPC stuff will be improved by faster memory.

And I don't think anyone here is claiming that nothing on an HTPC will be improved by faster memory. Perhaps if you weren't skimming through so much you would have realized that. What we're saying is, that not everything will be improved, and in fact, not much will. For some people nothing will be improved.

So can you name what specifically will show a meaningful performance boost from the faster memory? (and I like that you've added the latency as a stipulation on there as well, despite the fact that you often promote faster memory without that same stipulation) Don't bother with any of your horse manure, crock of feces excuses either. You have more posts on this forum (many of which are nothing but a waste of time) than assassin, stacknhalo, Dark_Slayer and myself combined. You never seemed to worry about your time before. Now all of the sudden, making a rational defense of your own statements in a Science furom is a waste of your time? Puh-lease!

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post #227 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Ajhieb I don't read your posts or bother with replies to you as I explained this to you and why already. Good night.

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post #228 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 12:12 AM
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It's 3am here and I need sleep but I just saw this and I'll be happy to answer in the morning. I just wanted let you know quickly I'm not ignoring you but it's late and I must retire for a while.
OK, just don't leave me hanging please.
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post #229 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 01:24 AM
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Ajhieb I don't read your posts or bother with replies to you as I explained this to you and why already. Good night.
How was I supposed to know? I just skimmed over your post. You can't expect me to read all of that.

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post #230 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 04:15 AM
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Nope, I'm happy with my G1620, and was happy with my older dual core AMD that I used for 5 years before that. Don't need an i5/7 for HTPC, would just be a waste of money. I have cheapass ram, cheapass motherboard, cheapass case, cheapass PSU, and $90 GPU for madVR.

Anything faster/more expensive serves no purpose for what I do on my HTPC.

I'd also like to add that I have absolutely no desire to transcode and watch anything on a phone or tablet. I have a 60" plasma (thinking of getting a projector as well) and the thought of watching the latest episode of Game on Thrones on a cell phone just blows my mind.
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post #231 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 05:28 AM
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Oh good Lord... I give up... some are just never going to change...

No HTPC in my household (there are three of them) ever got more than an i3 and only the living room one has a GTX 750 ti in it... the remaining two run on iGPU... all of them with 4GB RAM
The server has a 6 core AMD processor and runs FreeNAS (because of ZFS) with 16GB DDR3 Non-ECC RAM... I guess I will soon be shot in the face for not using ECC RAM and enterprise grade mobo with Xeon processors...
Only the living room HTPC has an SSD in it, and honestly speaking the SSD adds an absolute zero value to viewing experience... in fact, there is no noticeable differnce in boot up times when compared to other HTPCs... okay, I need to mention that all of my HTPCs are installed with the minimal CentOS 6 Linux image with XFCE and Plex client... nothing more... and all boot straight into the Plex client...
You may call me cheap, stupid, idiotic as much as you want (oh, someone here already did quite a few times in this thread alone) it is simply not going to change the fact that each individual sees the $ value differently...

What makes me laugh as well is expressions like "cheap $60 mobo... cheap $20 increase... etc...
Maybe my knowledge in English language is not sound enough, but I simply don't get the emphasis on the use of the word "cheap"
I could imagine a $60 mobo or a cheap mobo, otherwise others might as well say an expensive $20 increase...

All in all, I think it has been (bitterly) hashed out here that overspending on hardware adds no significant value in the HTPC arena, while at the same time, it is up to the spender to decide for themselves if the extra spend is worth it or not...
There isn't and won't ever be a right or wrong opinion in this regard...

Considering the amount of insults being thrown around, I would already be considering closing this thread if I was a moderator... honestly...
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post #232 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 06:26 AM
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I think when you start a thread under the premise that people that did something different than the op did it "wrong" and should "upgrade it" or "make it better" to "catch up to what the op is doing" (which obviously is vastly superior to what the rest of us schleps are doing) what you are seeing here is the result.

As has been stated... this certainly isn't the first time and definitely won't be the last. And as has also been stated it's the community's responsibility to correct misinformation to the uninitiated reader for those that might be stopping by avs for education, facts and actual a/v science.
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post
I think when you start a thread under the premise that people that did something different than the op did it "wrong" and should "upgrade it" or "make it better" to "catch up to what the op is doing" (which obviously is vastly superior to what the rest of us schleps are doing) what you are seeing here is the result.

As has been stated... this certainly isn't the first time and definitely won't be the last. And as has also been stated it's the community's responsibility to correct misinformation to the uninitiated reader for those that might be stopping by avs for education, facts and actual a/v science.
Why stir the pot or kick mud ? My post was about what "I" did wrong and not anyone else's. I did it wrong, and I used myself and my experience as the example.

Then I nicely asked what other people might have done wrong or might change or do differently if they had a chance. It's sad that only a few posters with a personal grudge drag this into what it's become . Is it not possible to talk about the tech, give or share some personal experiences with each other, and most importantly have fun and be nice to each other ? I guess not. Another thread into the toilet. Sad.

It's funny you've had no educational posts, "presented no correct information" and haven't even had any posts in this thread talking about the tech or the real subject matter. Why are you even here then?

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post #234 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Why stir the pot or kick mud ? My post was about what "I" did wrong and not anyone else's. I did it wrong, and I used myself and my experience as the example.

Then I nicely asked what other people might have done wrong or might change or do differently if they had a chance. It's sad that only a few posters with a personal grudge drag this into what it's become . Is it not possible to talk about the tech, give or share some personal experiences with each other, and most importantly have fun and be nice to each other ? I guess not. Another thread into the toilet. Sad.

It's funny you've had no educational posts, "presented no correct information" and haven't even had any posts in this thread talking about the tech or the real subject matter. Why are you even here then?
Are you delusional or just a bad lair? You know that the beginning of the thread is still there for people to read, right?

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So I'll ask what is it about HTPC that makes people so freakin' cheap?
Yeah... real nice.

Let me ask a nice question... what makes you so freakin' flippant?

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #235 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:30 AM
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For all intensive purposes
OK, the actual phrase is: "for all intents and purposes".

Please note that as you move forward.

We now return you to The Real PC Builders of AVS Forum.
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post #236 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:33 AM
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In a discussion of how much hardware one needs in their HTPC for a fast fluid stutter free experience madVR invariably comes up. madVR is something of a corner case but it always gets trotted out as to why we need to plan around beefy hardware for HTPC.

Truth is madVR can be a bottomless pit in terms of hardware requirements. That is a case where almost always more is better at least on the GPU side. So it is a big straw man. It is interesting that almost no one on this forum actually talks about using madVR for what is perhaps its most interesting capability and one that doesn't have big hardware requirements. Display color correction with a 3D LUT is one hell of a neat trick. Calibration with a 3D LUT can turn a ho hum display into a superior one. It can't fix low native contrast but it can make color nearly perfect.

Even a Haswell i3 with integrated graphics is enough GPU to greatly upgrade a display with average color response. I use the Lumagen Radiance to do that so it corrects for multiple inputs but for the price of entry madVR and Argyll are an amazing tandem with relatively modest hardware requirements, the single biggest requirement is spending some time sorting it out. Take a look at the Display Calibrations forum there is a lot of real experience there using madVR in this way.
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post #237 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 07:36 AM
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Dag!

Hey, I'm gonna stick my neck out here. I've read the original post and felt that it was a great topic of discussion. I believe Mfusick an active member of the community often brings great topics up in order to create discussion and keep this forum area alive. You may agree with him or not and you can certainly chime in your opinion on the subject matter but c'mon some of the stuff taken out of context of the overall discussion comes down to his personal observation and experience.

I didn't chime in on the question because my setup is much more basic than most and doesn't even compare but it works for my needs. Everyone who knows me thinks it's mind blowing but I know better . In any event I enjoy coming here to get information and understand what's possible with what I've got and what I can obtain. I also enjoy helping others when they are stuck or don't understand something even if it seems simple to me or you guys. This stuff can quite overwhelming to your average Joe or noobie and sometimes a little guidance goes a long way. However, the multiple threads which seem to spiral like this are getting to be monotonous.

In any event I hope we get back to topic because I think it was a great question, that would help others to come and learn from the experience of other users. Similar to this thread in the Dedicated Theater section. I know that if I had a topic of discussion like this one I may have done things a little differently when I was beginning my build.
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post #238 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 08:13 AM
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Might I suggest that we focus on the tech... or perhaps just abandon this thread altogether.

In my opinion, it's ok to have a healthy debate about a controversial subject between a bunch of tech heads, however, it seems like all that is taking place is heated arguments.

Really, nothing is to be gained here if that's the case, as I'm now skimming through the argumentative posts and likely missing beneficial content.

I like you guys and have learned an astronomical amount from each of you thus far. Each one of you contributed to my HTPC build, I personally used every one of Assassin's guides to set my HTPC and server up. I owe it to the OP and his knowledge of transcoding that helped me configure my server within my HTPC.

It seems that this type of behavior causes AVS members to pick sides and that frankly just makes people abandon the forums altogether.

Lets focus on contributing meaningful content and conversation, remembering that it takes two (or more) to tango.

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There's that as well


Xbmc does this for you w/o madvr . . . what is your setup?
I did not know XBMC did this. I made the mistake of buying Win 8.1 pro so that I could purchase WMC. I'm vested in that decision now (I was convinced 8.1 was the wise choice due to its metro Netflix app)... anyhow, I use mediabrowser3 and MBC with WMC. When watching movies via MBC I use MPC-HC as an external player and have madvr only adjusting frame rates. It has been suggested in the MPC thread that madvr doesn't do anything to enhance blu ray rips. Thus my reasoning for utilizing madvr only to adjust to 24hz.

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Originally Posted by staknhalo View Post
Serious question to all - would increased RAM speed/tighter timings do anything noticeable for transcoding or MadVR? Like, aside from increasing the benchmark score of the PC. I don't do any of that with an HTPC, so I have no clue. I couldn't see how it would though. I was thinking maybe it could help with buffering/the way some transcodes are stored in 'chunks' by either MB or Plex (forget which one does that). I would suspect if any performance increase, it would be highly negligible/virtually unnoticeable. Curious if this is the case or not.

I know in gaming, you can hope for maybe 5-10 FPS increase; but mainly, faster RAM will help you with overclocking the CPU.

If I'm not mistaken, for my HTPC (again, that doesn't do MadVR or transcoding) - faster RAM would lead to a theoretically increased (how much - probably negligible - but an increase nonetheless) benchmark number produced for my HTPC. That's literally inconsequential for my HTPC or any like it. It wouldn't provide any noticeable performance/quality increase in listening to music/watching MP4 or recorded TV videos/recording TV. So I fail to see how I would have been better off buying faster RAM.

Am I correct in all this? And like I said (I don't believe so, but as I don't do them, I can't say for sure), curious about the transcoding/MadVR question.
I fell victim to over spending for faster memory whereas I now think I should have focused more on quantity.

The one area I don't regret is investing in an SSD. I feel like this was beneficial for my particular situation because I boot from cold daily.

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Dag!

Hey, I'm gonna stick my neck out here. I've read the original post and felt that it was a great topic of discussion. I believe Mfusick an active member of the community often brings great topics up in order to create discussion and keep this forum area alive. You may agree with him or not and you can certainly chime in your opinion on the subject matter but c'mon some of the stuff taken out of context of the overall discussion comes down to his personal observation and experience.

I didn't chime in on the question because my setup is much more basic than most and doesn't even compare but it works for my needs. Everyone who knows me thinks it's mind blowing but I know better . In any event I enjoy coming here to get information and understand what's possible with what I've got and what I can obtain. I also enjoy helping others when they are stuck or don't understand something even if it seems simple to me or you guys. This stuff can quite overwhelming to your average Joe or noobie and sometimes a little guidance goes a long way. However, the multiple threads which seem to spiral like this are getting to be monotonous.

In any event I hope we get back to topic because I think it was a great question, that would help others to come and learn from the experience of other users. Similar to this thread in the Dedicated Theater section. I know that if I had a topic of discussion like this one I may have done things a little differently when I was beginning my build.
One million thumbs up!
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post #239 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, just don't leave me hanging please.
I'm not. But please understand I'm answering this question because you asked clearly and nicely and I'm doing it in good faith. I have no interest in a confrontation or pissing match with anyone and there is a few things we'll need to make clear before we look at the nitty gritty. The first thing is that I want to be clear that by answering your question I am by no means advocating someone needs to go spend $200 on a high end ram kit for HTPC for a meager 8% performance improvement over a $60 kit. I'm talking about short money here, like the difference of $20 between a single channel kit and dual channel kit, or a 2400mhz kit and a 1333mhz kit, Or a lower CAS kit and a higher one... etc... In many cases the price differences are only a few dollars especially if you shop or your smart about your buying. Once the money distances become greater that's a game changer IMO. Now that I've cleared that up, I'd also like to ask everyone to please realize there is some people that might twist things to start an argument (I'm hoping that doesn't happen here with this) and again I'm not saying you need to get high end ram, or spend a ton of money on anything. I'm just going to answer your question because you asked.

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@Mfusick , will you tell me how/where faster RAM will specifically improve the performance on my HTPC outside of a possible benchmark number increase - something I could notice in use/viewing and say "Hey, yeah, this is better"?

Edit: I Google'd it and can't find anything. That's why I'm asking.
Ok some of the things you might notice with better RAM (better ram might be more, it might be lower CAS, it might be faster Mhz speed, It might be dual channel vs single... I am going to just lump it all together as "better" for simplicity here because my original comment was a general one that assumed a typical $20 difference or less from one thing to another and that might be any of those things) are:

-Faster/better USB3.0 performance, lower amount of time to copy/paste over USB drives
-Reduced time/ increased performance on zipping or unzipping a file (think downloads, including movies)
-Improved performance on video rendering or conversion or encoding, even transcoding could benefit
-Improved performance on SVP / MadVR
-Improved performance on gaming (although slight you can get some more FPS if you are a gamer)
-Better IGPU performance, especially on overclock

But keep in mind these differences are very small, it's not black and white or huge performance differences. Also, some of these things might not matter to someone depending on what they do with their HTPC or how they use it. But in general higher quality, higher amounts, faster, and lower latency memory does have a positive effect on PC performance. I'm not saying everyone could benefit from that all the time, rather I was trying to debunk the crazy idea being suggested that MORE/BETTER/FASTER RAM was some how less reliable OR that there is NO DIFFERENCE. It's one thing to appreciate a high value ram kit that offers a lot of bang for your buck and offers generally good enough performance, but doing this doesn't mean that there is no performance advantages of better/bigger ram kits. It just means the value might not be there for some folks.


I think in HTPC the iGPU performance improvement (5%+) with good ram/more ram in dual channel might be worth the cost to some, especially when it's short money extra or possibly the same cost. I have not seen huge variances between something like 1066/1333mhz and something like 1866/2133/2400mhz. 1600mhz hits square in the middle... but even then it's almost the same price as the faster/better kits these days too. 2800mhz+ is high end stuff so only gamers or serious users with a high end rig would want to explore that stuff. But again, more ram is short money and has some improvements too- Think jumping from a single 4GB single channel kit to a double stick dual channel 8GB kit. In a lot of cases that jump isn't super crazy expensive and it's going to have some performance advantages. Can you playback a video with a single channel 4GB kit ? Of coarse you can. At the end of the day just use your common sense and choose the kit that offers you the most bang for your buck and satisfies you needs. I've had plenty of crappy ram that led to system instability and problems to learn that for small amount of cost buying a brand name I trust with a good reputation and a lifetime warranty is also worth a small premium. For short money saved this isn't an area you want to try to go ultra cheap on IMO. Quality is important too, and that's also a main point I was making originally when talking about small differences in cost or the possible trouble with trying too hard to pinch pennies. Cheap ram might not be worth the money savings, especially if you get a bad stick or end up having reliability problems with a suspect brand or bad model of RAM.

Here is a good article: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7364/m...-on-haswell/10

There is another one for AMD that's roughly the same too if you wanted to change platforms ^ Link at the bottom.

Some data:



USB 3.0 Copy Test with MaxCPU

We transfer a set size of files from the 120GB OCZ Vertex3 connected via SATA 6 Gbps on the motherboard to the 240 GB OCZ Vertex3 SSD with a SATA 6 Gbps to USB 3.0 converter via USB 3.0 using DiskBench, which monitors the time taken to transfer. The files transferred are a 9.2 GB set of 7539 files across 1011 folders – 95% of these files are small typical website files, and the rest (90% of the size) are precompiled installers. In an update to pre-Z87 testing, we also run MaxCPU to load up one of the threads during the test which improves general performance up to 15% by causing all the internal pathways to run at full speed.

Results are represented as seconds taken to complete the copy test, where lower is better.




WinRAR 4.2

With 64-bit WinRAR, we compress the set of files used in the motherboard review USB speed tests. WinRAR x64 3.93 attempts to use multithreading when possible, and provides as a good test for when a system has variable threaded load. WinRAR 4.2 does this a lot better! If a system has multiple speeds to invoke at different loading, the switching between those speeds will determine how well the system will do.

Up first, WinRAR 3.93, with results expressed in terms of seconds to compress. Lower is better.



Using the older version of WinRAR shows a 31% advantage moving from 1333 C9 to 3000 C12, although 2400 C9/2666 C10/2800 C11 have a good showing.

WinRAR 4.2 results next:




Xilisoft Video Converter 7

With XVC, users can convert any type of normal video to any compatible format for smartphones, tablets and other devices. By default, it uses all available threads on the system, and in the presence of appropriate graphics cards, can utilize CUDA for NVIDIA GPUs as well as AMD WinAPP for AMD GPUs. For this test, we use a set of 33 HD videos, each lasting 30 seconds, and convert them from 1080p to an iPod H.264 video format using just the CPU. The time taken to convert these videos gives us our result in seconds, where lower is better.




Video Conversion - x264 HD Benchmark

The x264 HD Benchmark uses a common HD encoding tool to process an HD MPEG2 source at 1280x720 at 3963 Kbps. This test represents a standardized result which can be compared across other reviews, and is dependent on both CPU power and memory speed. The benchmark performs a 2-pass encode, and the results shown are the average frame rate of each pass performed four times. Higher is better this time around.




Sleeping Dogs: Minimum FPS

Like the average frame rates, it seems that 1333 MHz is a bust, 1866 MHz+ does the business, and 2133 MHz is the sweet spot.



I put the copy paste in smaller font because the new quote system on this forum upgrade doesn't work so well anymore. I am going to stop because anyone who wants to see more can just read the article, (or the others) and see the additional details.

Keep in mind I'm not and have never said everyone needs a high end ram kit or needs go spend a ton of cash on memory. Anyone suggesting that is just making that up looking for a confrontation. I simply said that for $20 here and there you might not actually be saving money or making smart choices if you pinch your pennies. When the street prices for an 8GB kit isn't hugely more than a 4GB kit, or the same for a dual channel kit vs a single channel, or a lower CAS vs a higher CAS kit, or a faster MHz kit vs a slower one, or a good trusted brand name costs less than $20 more than a lesser brand or model I think it's smart to take a look at the better products because for $5 or $10 or even $20 difference that amount might be insignificant over the coarse of many years of superior trouble free operation and well worth it.
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post #240 of 335 Old 08-08-2014, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, the actual phrase is: "for all intents and purposes".

Please note that as you move forward.

We now return you to The Real PC Builders of AVS Forum.
This was already pointed out once. Thanks. I type a lot of replies on my cell phone and I don't catch stuff or have the diligence I should with proof reading, especially against auto correct. Thanks for twisting the knife, it was a huge benefit to everyone. Back to our regularly scheduled programming:


Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Nope, I'm happy with my G1620, and was happy with my older dual core AMD that I used for 5 years before that. Don't need an i5/7 for HTPC, would just be a waste of money. I have cheapass ram, cheapass motherboard, cheapass case, cheapass PSU, and $90 GPU for madVR.

Anything faster/more expensive serves no purpose for what I do on my HTPC.

I'd also like to add that I have absolutely no desire to transcode and watch anything on a phone or tablet. I have a 60" plasma (thinking of getting a projector as well) and the thought of watching the latest episode of Game on Thrones on a cell phone just blows my mind.
If I remember correctly you upgraded your GPU card for better performance didn't you? And also you had a long thread about that cheapass PSU where you wanted to make it quiter right ? A $20 more model Seasonic probably would have been less headache right?

That said there is nothing wrong with buying value or low cost parts, especially if it serves your intended purpose. The only time when it becomes a problem is when you start upgrading stuff premature or replacing stuff because you went too cheap/weak the first time. This is what happened to me, and what I was sharing. I didn't mean to suggest is always happens to everyone either, rather just that it could happen.

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