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post #1 of 38 Old 08-09-2014, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Overpowered HTPC?

This is my first post here on AVS. I'm posting here because I've got a powerful PC that could be utilized for home theatre, gaming and such. I was going to post in the "Anyone ever wish they did their HTPC right the first time? or (better)" thread but it had been closed. So, this is a story in the making.

I've got dual CPUs, triple GPUs on an SR-2 mobo. This has been my first computer build. Essentially it's a workstation and it's on at least 17 hrs a day, mainly used for CAD, 3D modelling, rendering and such. I work from home. Even so, a lot of the time resources go unused so it could easily be allocated for other stuff.

HTPC
Because of this I've contemplated using this build as an HTPC for media and possibly gaming, rather than building a separate pc. Of course it's not going to be energy efficient, but the build is already a sunk cost. In addition for a HTPC I saw the possibility of madVR NNEDI3 upscaling which would require high end hardware, so I might as well allocate money for future GPU upgrades to this PC, since they will also serve multiple purposes. The money to build another PC could instead be used for energy, and because this unit is likely to be on a lot anyway, I figured the energy issue isn't such a big deal. I was thinking of getting a projector and screen and route sound to my home audio system.

GAMING
Because we have kids in the house it's likely to become increasingly more interesting for them to game, and I've briefly looked into the possibility of using software such as MiniFrame SoftXpand to enable virtualized gaming.

CHALLENGES
Challenges exist and choices have to be made:
  • As this has been my first PC build, I'm still a beginner in learning mode.
  • Cabling and wiring. I gather madVR requires cabled transfer. I need the PC in the office for day to day work. The home theatre would be in the basement, probably some 15 ft away or so. Connecting the TV screen in the living room would also be nice.
  • Currently the PC is not on 24 hrs a day, so I'd probably need a small unit that could function as a PVR of broadcast TV.
  • I also need a better NAS
  • For the audio I want gapless 24/96 FLAC
  • The kids want 3D
  • Software for DVD/Bluray and media browsing. Not an easy choice, I find. I guess AnyDVD HD and MakeMKV are obiquitous, but the rest...3dTV.at's StereoScopic; MPC-HC, XBMC JRiver, TotalMedia Theatre, VLC, Plex. Some of these do not go with madVR, I realize.

My friends tell me the HTPC route will take too much effort, the quality will be variable, problems will appear when there are software updates, it will be hard to calibrate the picture quality, and DVD/Bluray software will have to be subscribed to on an annual basis. Their advice: just get an Oppo.

Any advice and suggestions are welcome.
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post #2 of 38 Old 08-09-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadgety1 View Post
This is my first post here on AVS. I'm posting here because I've got a powerful PC that could be utilized for home theatre, gaming and such. I was going to post in the "Anyone ever wish they did their HTPC right the first time? or (better)" thread but it had been closed. So, this is a story in the making.

I've got dual CPUs, triple GPUs on an SR-2 mobo. This has been my first computer build. Essentially it's a workstation and it's on at least 17 hrs a day, mainly used for CAD, 3D modelling, rendering and such. I work from home. Even so, a lot of the time resources go unused so it could easily be allocated for other stuff.

HTPC
Because of this I've contemplated using this build as an HTPC for media and possibly gaming, rather than building a separate pc. Of course it's not going to be energy efficient, but the build is already a sunk cost. In addition for a HTPC I saw the possibility of madVR NNEDI3 upscaling which would require high end hardware, so I might as well allocate money for future GPU upgrades to this PC, since they will also serve multiple purposes. The money to build another PC could instead be used for energy, and because this unit is likely to be on a lot anyway, I figured the energy issue isn't such a big deal. I was thinking of getting a projector and screen and route sound to my home audio system.

GAMING
Because we have kids in the house it's likely to become increasingly more interesting for them to game, and I've briefly looked into the possibility of using software such as MiniFrame SoftXpand to enable virtualized gaming.

CHALLENGES
Challenges exist and choices have to be made:
  • As this has been my first PC build, I'm still a beginner in learning mode.
  • Cabling and wiring. I gather madVR requires cabled transfer. I need the PC in the office for day to day work. The home theatre would be in the basement, probably some 15 ft away or so. Connecting the TV screen in the living room would also be nice.
  • Currently the PC is not on 24 hrs a day, so I'd probably need a small unit that could function as a PVR of broadcast TV.
  • I also need a better NAS
  • For the audio I want gapless 24/96 FLAC
  • The kids want 3D
  • Software for DVD/Bluray and media browsing. Not an easy choice, I find. I guess AnyDVD HD and MakeMKV are obiquitous, but the rest...3dTV.at's StereoScopic; MPC-HC, XBMC JRiver, TotalMedia Theatre, VLC, Plex. Some of these do not go with madVR, I realize.

My friends tell me the HTPC route will take too much effort, the quality will be variable, problems will appear when there are software updates, it will be hard to calibrate the picture quality, and DVD/Bluray software will have to be subscribed to on an annual basis. Their advice: just get an Oppo.

Any advice and suggestions are welcome.
I can only speak for what I have found in my experience. Everyone is different. But what I have found is that media servers work best when that is all they are used for. Make your NAS/media server a dedicated unit, and the number of future problems drops precipitously. You can worry over things like heat, energy costs, and noise, but those are all rather easily addressed by simply upgrading hardware over time. You don't absolutely need a Platinum 80+ PSU to run the machine, but you might find you prefer it in the long run. However, that's a minor sort of thing.

Multi-purpose PCs can certainly be used as HTPCs/media servers. But the more tasks a PC gets used for, the more chances there are for issues to arise. You mentioned gaming being a possible use for the PC. PC games are great. THe most modern games with some of the best visuals are very resource intensive though. What happens when someone wants to play a game, but Mom/the wife wants to relax in the bedroom with a Chianti and Game of Thrones at the same time? The other thing is, the more purposes you put the PC to, the more likely you will be required (or at least strongly advised) to make upgrade or changes.

Once you have a media server built then up and running, there is little in the way of upgrades/changes that you will need to make so long as the PC doesn't change purposes. The only changes likely to be relevant at that point would come if you start adding numerous extra streams that will need access to the media. But then, the upgrade process is still a very straight-forward one. You evaluate what it is you want the server to be able to provide for, find out what hardware is necessary to server the demand, and then upgrade to that plus a bit of headroom just in case.

As far as using your current machine as a HTPC, since you will not likely be doing your CAD modeling and so forth at the same time you are watching a movie, there is little reason it cannot be multi-purposed. If you are looking into MadVR and the like, yes, CPU power is important. If you are more interested in the simple viability of having ease of access to media through the PC, but MadVR is something of an afterthought, then your machine will absolutely handle the demand. One thing about most (not all) HTPC programs is that they try not to over-tax a PC, this helps keep it quieter and cooler, both important things for many HTPC enthusiasts.

As far as what your friends are saying about HTPC issues. HTPCs do indeed have their strengths and their pitfalls. Some pitfalls can be annoying, but are easily avoided with proper planning. The idea that they are somehow harder to setup is only marginally a factor. Do you have to tell the PC and the program on it what you want to do? Sure, the first time. After that, you load the program and go. Hooking up the PC to the monitor/projector/AVR can be (and usually is) as simple as plugging in a HDMI cable, just like you would with an Oppo. Calibrating picture quality is really no more difficult using a PC than using an Oppo. If you are going to use something like MadVR (which many people simply do without), adjusting and so forth can get a bit more difficult, but this will be true anytime you start messing with independent video rendering devices. Software upgrades for HTPCs are mostly about bells and whistles. Once you have the HTPC up and running, there is no reason you must upgrade. Programs like Media Browser 3 update with some regularity, but those upgrades happen behind the scenes and require little work on your part (usually simply restarting the program). If you stick with stable, release client versions of your HTPC programs, you shouldn't be concerning yourself with that really.

As far as DVD/Bluray software needing to be subscribed to, this is the biggest fallacy I can think of. Even the paid programs like PowerDVD and TMT are a purchase once solution. Sure, upgrades cost, but there is no overriding reason a user must upgrade once they have a version on their PC that they like. Furthermore, programs like Media Browser, Kodi (formerly XBMC), and others all have built-in media players and they are all free. There is no need for monthly or annual subscriptions.
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post #3 of 38 Old 08-09-2014, 12:30 PM
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No multiple use HTPCs. Ever. If you think you want to do that, take a rusty nail and stab it into your palm, and leave it there. The initial pain and the ongoing results will be far easier to deal with than building a one-machine-does-all system.
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post #4 of 38 Old 08-09-2014, 10:02 PM
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No multiple use HTPCs. Ever. If you think you want to do that, take a rusty nail and stab it into your palm, and leave it there. The initial pain and the ongoing results will be far easier to deal with than building a one-machine-does-all system.
I'm using my HTPC for both video playback and gaming, works great.
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post #5 of 38 Old 08-09-2014, 10:47 PM
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While there is nothing inherently wrong with multi use HTPCs I certainly agree their are some areas where a dedicated machine makes more sense.

If you plan on making the HTPC the focal point of your media consumption, a dedicated machine will probably make you happier. If you're wanting it to replace your cable boxs, and act like a DVR, then having abunch of other stuff on there, and using the PC for a bunch of other tasks is probably going to diminish the effectiveness of the PC as an appliance. One of the drawbacks often mentioned of an HTPC compared to a cablebox is the WAF (Wife Approval Factor) Often times the other members of the household will prefer a cable box over an HTPC even if the HTPC has better eye candy, has a better guide and better picture quality. The reason the cite for choosing the cable box is often "it just works." PCs can be fiddly, but for the most part, crummy as they may be cable boxes do typically just work. Part of the reason the are that stable is they aren't multitasking. They are single purpose devices. With a dedicated HTPC, you can come close to the level of reliability if you keep the rains on your HTPC.

Conversely if you're using it as your "daily driver" and also using it as your DVR, odds are there are going to be several hiccups along the way. Reliability goes down and so does WAF.

However, if you aren't looking for that level of use out of your PC and only want to watch the occasional BluRay on it, then I don't see why you couldn't do that (at least not from any philosophical point of view) the trouble I see in your case is the proximity to your TV(s). If you can get an HDMI cable from the computer's location to your projector, and bedroom then I suppose an HDMI switch could do the trick. You'd also have to install some sort of IR repeater or get a front end that can be controlled by a smarthphone app.

Then you have to think about how you're going to split time with the PC. If it becomes your DVR, it can record any time of day, but if you're busy doing your CAD thing, and Wifey wants to watch last night's American Idol, you've got a problem. The workaround for that is to go with an extender model, which will fix the cabling issues, and the remote issues, as well as the time sharing issues, but then you lose the ability to use all of the horsepower of that computer to do things like MadVR.

If an Oppo will do everything you want it to, then it would probably be a better solution that trying to have your current PC do double duty. If you're looking for more functionality than that your PC can probably fill in some wholes, but I do agree with the premise that you'll probably be unhappy with it if you're wanting it to do coexist as a work PC as well.
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post #6 of 38 Old 08-10-2014, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I'm using my HTPC for both video playback and gaming, works great.
Which is great if you're the only one using it or if only one person needs to use it at a time. I've yet to find a good solution for simultaneous users without getting a client device (could be an extender, Android, Roku, AppleTV, FireTV or even another HTPC) for each TV.
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post #7 of 38 Old 08-11-2014, 02:39 AM - Thread Starter
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No multiple use HTPCs. Ever. If you think you want to do that, take a rusty nail and stab it into your palm, and leave it there. The initial pain and the ongoing results will be far easier to deal with than building a one-machine-does-all system.
I said the same thing about my dedicated listening room. I would never have a screen in my listening room because then multiple demands would create problems. So I certainly see where you're coming from. That said, it now seems it's going to happen, after nearly a decade, because the investment I've made cannot be repeated elsewhere for budget reasons. In addition, the sound is simply outstanding, and the room is very good for a projector in terms of having few windows. So if I want that elsewhere it's going to cost too much.

For the PC it kind of the same story. The investment I've made is big, and I just want to benefit from it in more ways. If I were to build another high class media device capable of madVR at it's highest, rather than various extenders and such, the graphics card would be too good to "waste" in simply a media center. I would want to take advantage of it for rendering. The day I've filled my big rig and will retire one of the graphics cards, then that could go into a dedicated HTPC.

I have contemplated setting up a small AMD Kaveri APU based HTPC, passively cooled because it would be totally silent. It wouldn't handle madVR at it's highest settings, though.

Right now then, the next step will still be to try the current rig as the base. It's the smallest hurdle, and I can always go dedicated later.
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post #8 of 38 Old 08-11-2014, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm using my HTPC for both video playback and gaming, works great.
Excellent. Do you have any good summary of what sort of things to pay attention to, trade offs, etc based on your experience?
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post #9 of 38 Old 08-12-2014, 05:42 AM
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Excellent. Do you have any good summary of what sort of things to pay attention to, trade offs, etc based on your experience?
There are no tradeoffs really. I needed a decent GPU to take advantage of madVR, so gaming was almost a "free" upgrade. I wanted to game on a 60" tv so why would I buy another tv and computer to do the same thing?
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post #10 of 38 Old 08-12-2014, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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There are no tradeoffs really. I needed a decent GPU to take advantage of madVR, so gaming was almost a "free" upgrade. I wanted to game on a 60" tv so why would I buy another tv and computer to do the same thing?
Great! Lots of questions coming up: Would you care to outline your system? Any problems with noise from the GPU? What about complexit - are you the only user?
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post #11 of 38 Old 08-12-2014, 10:32 AM
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If it works well, it works well. Problem is you wont know about some of the annoying bugs until you get there.

My personal annoyance: I have 2 monitors on my main pc. It is also connected to a tv in the bedroom. I have my apps arranged nicely on my 2 monitors. Problem is when I switch to the tv then back to my 2 monitors all of my nicely arranged app windows are now on a single monitor and have to be arranged again.

Audio can only be output to one source as well (in win 7). There are workarounds but they are buggy and often create more problems than they solve. Once every few days the hdmi audio input disappears from windows. The only way to get it working again is to reboot the pc. Fun when you wanna work and your kids want to watch tv, right?

Lots of other 'minor' issues as well. Because of this I only use my tv for gaming with my computer. For watching video i just have a cheap media player box. It saves me a lot of grief lol
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post #12 of 38 Old 08-12-2014, 10:58 AM
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Add me to the list that doesn't like all in one solutions. I tried it. There's another thread that's better and more appropriate called something like who else built ridiculously overpowered HTPC or something like that... Give it a read it's got some applicable info in it for you. If someone else can link it that would be cool too.

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post #13 of 38 Old 08-12-2014, 01:20 PM
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Who else has built a ridiculously overpowered HTPC? What's your story?

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post #14 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. LOL, I posted in that thread first but was recommended to take down my post and create a new thread.
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post #15 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 05:07 AM
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Haha. I just saw. Basically if you read it it has some good info on all in one vs dedicated. But either works. The nice thing about a powerful PC is it's almost always up to the task of anything.
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post #16 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 08:03 AM
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Great thread! Welcome to the world of HTPC! I think you are off to a good start.

A couple of questions, you mentioned gaming being important to you... where is it a priority that you are able to game? The living room/theater? Office?

If you are wanting to use your powerful PC you describe to game remotely than you have some obstacles, but I'm sure they can overcome. Mfusick's thread "rediculously overpowered..." has a user who does this. I'll look later today and get you a username.
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post #17 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 08:09 AM
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Mfusick's thread "rediculously overpowered..." has a user who does this. I'll look later today and get you a username.
EricN is the user that pretty much did what you are describing. We ought to get his attention as I'm sure there will be valuable feedback if he followed through with what he was describing in Mfusick's thread.
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post #18 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Great thread! Welcome to the world of HTPC! I think you are off to a good start.

A couple of questions, you mentioned gaming being important to you... where is it a priority that you are able to game? The living room/theater? Office?

If you are wanting to use your powerful PC you describe to game remotely than you have some obstacles, but I'm sure they can overcome. Mfusick's thread "rediculously overpowered..." has a user who does this. I'll look later today and get you a username.
Thank you. Remote gaming, yes. On the TV potentially, and on a 24 inch PC monitor. Not in the office. I think I quoted EricN in that original post. He uses some server software, I believe. I looked into a program called MiniFrame SoftXpand. There's a couple of demos on YT, so I know it's possible with SoftXpand, but probably not stable, there's some latency etc.
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post #19 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 03:15 PM
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Haha. I just saw. Basically if you read it it has some good info on all in one vs dedicated. But either works. The nice thing about a powerful PC is it's almost always up to the task of anything.
As in that i5 4690 Haswell on my bench..
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post #20 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 03:48 PM
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As in that i5 4690 Haswell on my bench..
Nice! I picked one up a few weeks ago for my new gaming rig. Complete with a Gigabyte Z97M motherboard and Vengeance 16GB kit of 2400Mhz memory. I'm very pleased at the PC's performance. I cannot wait until SSD's take a price plunge so that I can pick one up and do a clone.

One thing that I have been meaning to ask other 4690 owners (unrelated to this thread) is if they are getting 3.9Ghz during load (according to CPUID I am only getting 3.7Ghz at load). I am wondering if I am missing some setting in the BIOS... I have tried everything to get the 3.9Ghz at load. I fire up Prime95 and CPUID and it only indicates 3.7Ghz. I did enable XMP for the memory and I am seeing the 1200Mhz for the memory in CPUID so I don't think I am under utilizing the memory. Any ideas?

Theater set-up:  

AVR:  Pioneer VSX-820

Speakers:  5.1 consists of four NHT Classic Two bookshelf and an NHT TwoC center

Sub:  PSA-XV15

HTPC - ridiculously over-the-top, home-built gaming PC that I tinker with daily!

OTA antenna:  Winegard HD7698P

HDTV:  Sharp LC-60SQ15U

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post #21 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 03:51 PM
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Thank you. Remote gaming, yes. On the TV potentially, and on a 24 inch PC monitor. Not in the office. I think I quoted EricN in that original post. He uses some server software, I believe. I looked into a program called MiniFrame SoftXpand. There's a couple of demos on YT, so I know it's possible with SoftXpand, but probably not stable, there's some latency etc.
You have one heck of an obstacle to overcome. I am not trying to be discouraging, however, I wonder if you might think about using your Overpowered build as your main gaming PC and server then build a little HTPC with adequate GPU for gaming and madVR. Without skimping you could probably come in under $600.

Theater set-up:  

AVR:  Pioneer VSX-820

Speakers:  5.1 consists of four NHT Classic Two bookshelf and an NHT TwoC center

Sub:  PSA-XV15

HTPC - ridiculously over-the-top, home-built gaming PC that I tinker with daily!

OTA antenna:  Winegard HD7698P

HDTV:  Sharp LC-60SQ15U

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post #22 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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If it works well, it works well. Problem is you wont know about some of the annoying bugs until you get there.

My personal annoyance: I have 2 monitors on my main pc. It is also connected to a tv in the bedroom. I have my apps arranged nicely on my 2 monitors. Problem is when I switch to the tv then back to my 2 monitors all of my nicely arranged app windows are now on a single monitor and have to be arranged again.

Audio can only be output to one source as well (in win 7). There are workarounds but they are buggy and often create more problems than they solve. Once every few days the hdmi audio input disappears from windows. The only way to get it working again is to reboot the pc. Fun when you wanna work and your kids want to watch tv, right?

Lots of other 'minor' issues as well. Because of this I only use my tv for gaming with my computer. For watching video i just have a cheap media player box. It saves me a lot of grief lol
OK, this is really great to know. Sounds like a PC, alright. As my friends said, I should get an Oppo.
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post #23 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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You have one heck of an obstacle to overcome. I am not trying to be discouraging, however, I wonder if you might think about using your Overpowered build as your main gaming PC and server then build a little HTPC with adequate GPU for gaming and madVR. Without skimping you could probably come in under $600.
jhughy, thanks. I wonder, could you be a little clearer what you mean by "one heck of an obstacle to overcome." I see many, but which one were you referring to?
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post #24 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gadgety1 View Post
jhughy, thanks. I wonder, could you be a little clearer what you mean by "one heck of an obstacle to overcome." I see many, but which one were you referring to?
I believe the reference is to tje complexity you are looking at doing. Keep it simple for max enjoyment on the viewing end of things. Don't reinvent the wheel. Take a look at the fantastic guides over on the assassin HTPC blog.
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post #25 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gadgety1 View Post
jhughy, thanks. I wonder, could you be a little clearer what you mean by "one heck of an obstacle to overcome." I see many, but which one were you referring to?
Like Sammy said, I am just vaguely referring to the complexity of it all. Also, due to the practice being less adopted versus the alternative, I wonder if the lack of support from users here, not to mention vendors, will cause a lot of red eyes.

Personally, I would take that gaming/productivity machine and connect 3 monitors in surround mode and leave it as such. Then invest in an HTPC/Server that suffices the WAF. Throw in a decent, efficient, quiet GPU and you got gaming in the theater too. Make it play-to or transcode and your now set on your tablet in bed or media box somewhere.

That equates to two gaming rigs that can play the latest and greatest games.

If you opt to go the route you are interested in then please post your findings, frustrations and results. This will be a learning experience for most of us.
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post #26 of 38 Old 08-13-2014, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
Like Sammy said, I am just vaguely referring to the complexity of it all. Also, due to the practice being less adopted versus the alternative, I wonder if the lack of support from users here, not to mention vendors, will cause a lot of red eyes.

Personally, I would take that gaming/productivity machine and connect 3 monitors in surround mode and leave it as such. Then invest in an HTPC/Server that suffices the WAF. Throw in a decent, efficient, quiet GPU and you got gaming in the theater too. Make it play-to or transcode and your now set on your tablet in bed or media box somewhere.

That equates to two gaming rigs that can play the latest and greatest games.

If you opt to go the route you are interested in then please post your findings, frustrations and results. This will be a learning experience for most of us.
That might be the end result. If I go this route, what madVR settings and GPU would you recommend?
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post #27 of 38 Old 08-14-2014, 05:21 AM
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That might be the end result. If I go this route, what madVR settings and GPU would you recommend?
Currently I only use madvr with MPC-HC to adjust to 24hz. I am using MPC-HC as an external player with mediabrowser3 classic. As far as I'm aware there is no benefit madvr adds to a blu ray rip. I only rip blu rays to my movie collection.

As far as recommending a gpu for the HTPC... I recently upgraded my from the Intel igpu to a dedicated card. I bought the Asus GTX750Ti for around $150. I found it has a great balance of not only price and performance but it's a low power consumption card as well. I'm able to get ~40 fps on ultra playing battlefield 4.

Currently I wouldn't recommend anything other than the 750ti because Nvidia maxwell cards (800 series) are on the horizon and will obviously bring increases in speed but also significant reduction is power consumption over current Gen. Perhaps a 750ti can hold you over until 870/880 releases?
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post #28 of 38 Old 08-17-2014, 11:27 AM
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Just as a final comment, rereading this I don't think this will work at all. Windows can only log in one user at a time. Your desktop and the TV will share the same input devices (mouse, keyboard, etc). The person using the tv will have to move your mouse cursor to their screen (which you can't even see ) in order to play/pause/whatever on the tv
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post #29 of 38 Old 08-20-2014, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Just as a final comment, rereading this I don't think this will work at all. Windows can only log in one user at a time. Your desktop and the TV will share the same input devices (mouse, keyboard, etc). The person using the tv will have to move your mouse cursor to their screen (which you can't even see ) in order to play/pause/whatever on the tv
SoftXpand doesn't work? There are demos on YT of it. Multiple gamers on the same PC. Each one with their own keyboard, screen etc. I think there's a one billion dollar lawsuit around this stuff, as well. I'd think that such a lawsuit would only materialize if it worked.

http://www.miniframe.com/
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post #30 of 38 Old 08-20-2014, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gadgety1 View Post
SoftXpand doesn't work? There are demos on YT of it. Multiple gamers on the same PC. Each one with their own keyboard, screen etc. I think there's a one billion dollar lawsuit around this stuff, as well. I'd think that such a lawsuit would only materialize if it worked.
]
That looks awesome Gadgety1. I searched quite a bit on this but I guess I was searching the wrong the wrong terms. I'm going to check this out
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