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post #1 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Encoding...I think my math is off

Intel's new on chip GPU was benchmarked encoding a 1080p movie to 1024x768 at 559fps.

Sooo...

If a movie is 3 hours long or 180 mins. And there is 60secs in each minute and 24 frames in each second then I come up with 7 and 3/4 mins to encode a movie at 559fps. That doesn't seem right. Seems high. I would like it to be around 2 mins or less.

180*60 = 10800 secs * 24 fps = 259200 frames to encode

259200/559 fps = 463 seconds / 60 = 7.72 mins

I guess 3 hours is a long movie. I should do the math with a 2 hour movie. That might be more central in the bell curve.

Well a 2 hour movie appears to be around 5 mins. Better but not fast. I guess you could go get a coffee or something. It's not the end of the world.

The new Iris Pro GPU is supposed to support better encoding quality adjustments for a better finished product. I haven't seen a comparison for that yet. I still can't find a CPU for sale yet that has Iris Pro Graphics. They are keeping them designated only for OEMs right now.

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post #2 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 11:32 AM
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You seem to be too long a member to be trolling because that's what this thread sounds like.
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post #3 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aftcomet View Post
You seem to be too long a member to be trolling because that's what this thread sounds like.
Trolling for what? Maybe I wasn't clear. Is my math off?

At first I came up with 7 and 3/4 hours. Which didn't seem right at all. But I multiplied by 60 once too many times. I corrected the paragraph but the time still seems like a long wait. Since it's on the GPU and doing most of the work there, will your computer slow down if you do other non graphic intensive task like web browsing?

I want to upgrade my computer to this new chip but I want it to be worthwhile. I'm just hoping my math is off. I'd make the leap if the encoding time was under 2 mins.

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post #4 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TimHuey View Post
Trolling for what? Maybe I wasn't clear. Is my math off?

At first I came up with 7 and 3/4 hours. Which didn't seem right at all. But I multiplied by 60 once too many times. I corrected the paragraph but the time still seems like a long wait. Since it's on the GPU and doing most of the work there, will your computer slow down if you do other non graphic intensive task like web browsing?

I want to upgrade my computer to this new chip but I want it to be worthwhile. I'm just hoping my math is off. I'd make the leap if the encoding time was under 2 mins.
No, your math seems fine. It's just how you sound. Specifically the "5 mins is too much, maybe I'll get a coffee or something". Just sounds weird. You're making a big deal over 3 minutes.
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post #5 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 12:32 PM
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Sounds like you will be better served with something like Plex using on-the-fly transcoding that doesn't really utilize the GPU much.

Under 2-mininute for 2-hour HD movie is un-realistic expectation. Using pure software encoding (as most tools still do), it will still take couple hours to encode a HD movie). So, 5-minute is actually a pretty good number. Don't forget that your typical slow HDD will still take 1 minute or 2 to just copy the entire movie file. So, you need to use an internal SSD in order to not add additional delay to the encoding process.

Lastly, only a few tools out there take advantage of Intel QSV for video encoding.
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post #6 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Sounds like you will be better served with something like Plex using on-the-fly transcoding that doesn't really utilize the GPU much.

Under 2-mininute for 2-hour HD movie is un-realistic expectation. Using pure software encoding (as most tools still do), it will still take couple hours to encode a HD movie). So, 5-minute is actually a pretty good number. Don't forget that your typical slow HDD will still take 1 minute or 2 to just copy the entire movie file. So, you need to use an internal SSD in order to not add additional delay to the encoding process.

Lastly, only a few tools out there take advantage of Intel QSV for video encoding.
Ugh, I hadn't thought about the HDD. I found the Primary boot drive I want for the system, but it is no where big enough to support a HD movie collection. I am going to put WIndows on the 512GB Samsung xp941 from RamCity in Australia. I was going to move the collection to a NAS RAID. My experience with raid was that it was very slow to write. No where near as fast as an SSD.

Right now I use PLEX but that's only to watch my movie collection when I have Internet access on the road. I'm airborne alot and in areas without reliable stable internet (Hotel Wifi mostly) and watching my Plex server isn't fun. I would like to drag and drop a movie or 2 to my phone and or tablet and have the new encoded movie dumped there. 5 mins isn't exactly drag and drop. If you have 3 or 4 movies to transfer it will take 20 mins or so. Not something you can do as you are running to catch a flight. 20 mins isn't the end of the world but it is something you have to preplan, which I'm horrible at.

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post #7 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TimHuey View Post
Ugh, I hadn't thought about the HDD. I found the Primary boot drive I want for the system, but it is no where big enough to support a HD movie collection. I am going to put WIndows on the 512GB Samsung xp941 from RamCity in Australia. I was going to move the collection to a NAS RAID. My experience with raid was that it was very slow to write. No where near as fast as an SSD.

Right now I use PLEX but that's only to watch my movie collection when I have Internet access on the road. I'm airborne alot and in areas without reliable stable internet (Hotel Wifi mostly) and watching my Plex server isn't fun. I would like to drag and drop a movie or 2 to my phone and or tablet and have the new encoded movie dumped there. 5 mins isn't exactly drag and drop. If you have 3 or 4 movies to transfer it will take 20 mins or so. Not something you can do as you are running to catch a flight. 20 mins isn't the end of the world but it is something you have to preplan, which I'm horrible at.
Even if the write speed of your phone isn't a bottleneck, the read speed of whatever you're reading from, probably will be. If you have full sized (25-40GB) bluray rips on your NAS, it's going to take several minutes to read that across your network.

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post #8 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 03:10 PM
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Yeah, most phones are limited to USB 2.0 speed. A 1GB movie file will takes a minute or two to copy over. So, it probably takes 30-minutes to copy the source material from NAS and 2 minutes to copy the encoded file back to phone. So the 5 minutes encoding time suddenly doesn't seem to much of an issue. If you encode from the NAS, it will take significantly longer.
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post #9 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 04:07 PM
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First off this is transcoding, not encoding. Encoding only requires that something be compressed to whatever format it is going into, while transcoding requires that it be both decoded and then encoded again.

Secondly, it sounds like trolling because you're complaining that what is probably the fastest transcoding in the consumer PC market...is too slow. Consider that some of the fastest CPUs out there still take at least 5x longer doing software (CPU) transcoding than most iterations of QuickSync.

If you're upgrading from a CPU that does not have QSV then yes it will be a huge improvement. If you're upgrading from one that already supports QSV then it will be an improvement but not a huge one, meaning of course it's probably not worth upgrading. If you want faster you'll probably have to either go for professional ASIC-based gear (I would also say multi-Xeon but then QSV is not supported in multi-processor setups), or get into a stasis chamber wait a couple years and come out and buy whatever the latest stuff is then, lol.
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post #10 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHuey View Post
Intel's new on chip GPU was benchmarked encoding a 1080p movie to 1024x768 at 559fps.

Sooo...

If a movie is 3 hours long or 180 mins. And there is 60secs in each minute and 24 frames in each second then I come up with 7 and 3/4 mins to encode a movie at 559fps. That doesn't seem right. Seems high. I would like it to be around 2 mins or less.

180*60 = 10800 secs * 24 fps = 259200 frames to encode

259200/559 fps = 463 seconds / 60 = 7.72 mins

I guess 3 hours is a long movie. I should do the math with a 2 hour movie. That might be more central in the bell curve.

Well a 2 hour movie appears to be around 5 mins. Better but not fast. I guess you could go get a coffee or something. It's not the end of the world.

The new Iris Pro GPU is supposed to support better encoding quality adjustments for a better finished product. I haven't seen a comparison for that yet. I still can't find a CPU for sale yet that has Iris Pro Graphics. They are keeping them designated only for OEMs right now.
If you want higher quality, you're not going to get 559fps.

also your 559fps is coming from an I7-4770K

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post #11 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ES_Revenge View Post
First off this is transcoding, not encoding. Encoding only requires that something be compressed to whatever format it is going into, while transcoding requires that it be both decoded and then encoded again.
If you want to split hairs about definitions, transcoding is encoding. Re-encoding is also encoding. Regardless of what source you start with, when the result is a different stream that is compressed, you've encoded it in some way. (remuxing isn't an encode because you still end up with the same stream at the end)

If you look around in the various spots where transcoding is defined, you'll see that it applies to any type of re-encoding, but common usage around here further narrows the definition to only include realtime/on-the-fly re-encoding, usually for streaming purposes, but the end result is usually straight to a display device. When doing the same thing that is stored, to be displayed at a later time, it is typically called re-encoding.

As far as the decoding goes, it has almost no impact at all on the speed of the process as today's hardware can do it (1080p at least) with relative ease.
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post #12 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 05:29 PM
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re-encoding . . . ajhieb and I agree
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post #13 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHuey View Post
5 mins isn't exactly drag and drop. If you have 3 or 4 movies to transfer it will take 20 mins or so. Not something you can do as you are running to catch a flight. 20 mins isn't the end of the world but it is something you have to preplan, which I'm horrible at.
Given most smartphones and tablets still have pretty slow storage (and are often limited to USB 2.0), I wouldn't be at all surprised if just the simple act of copying four 1GB movies to your device or microSD card already takes 30 minutes to an hour. Given current technological limitations, you have no choice but to preplan.

Personally, I convert my collection to mobile friendly MP4 format (via Handbrake Nightly with Intel QSV @ 720p) and keep copies of the MP4 files on the Plex server (for Plex Sync to tablets) and on 2.5" 2TB portable HDDs (for long vacations with my laptop acting as both Plex server and client).
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post #14 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
If you want to split hairs about definitions, transcoding is encoding.
Sure but it's also decoding, hence why there's a separate name as it's not just encoding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
As far as the decoding goes, it has almost no impact at all on the speed of the process as today's hardware can do it (1080p at least) with relative ease.
Yes, in realtime, sure. But that's not what we're talking about many times realtime. In fact if we're talking about 500fps that's some 21x faster than realtime for a standard BD movie @ 24fps. And the OP is complaining this is still too slow, so yes he should probably understand that first off there's more than just encoding (alone) going on, and that this is about as fast as he can get with current technology without delving into other avenues (like pro gear like I mentioned). Not to mention the fact that HDD and flash memory card transfers are going to hinder the process.


Of course at the same time encoding alone from an uncompressed source would probably not be any faster given the sheer data size involved, but whatever either way it's too slow for OP.


This is like talking about buying a Bugatti Veyron SS and then saying, "Erm, well, it's fast and all... But still not fast enough for me. When are these car companies going to make an actually fast car already?!" LOL.


But anyway that's about all I'm going to say about it. If OP really needs faster then there are probably options out there for him (likely costing much more $$$); otherwise tough beans.
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post #15 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ES_Revenge View Post
Sure but it's also decoding, hence why there's a separate name as it's not just encoding.
Encoding is a general catch-all term. If I called a Bugatti Veyron SS a "car" and you corrected me to say that it's not a car, it's a Veyron SS, you'd be wrong. It most certainly is a car. If you want to be more specific, that's fine, but you're incorrect to say that the subset is not part of the larger whole. Transcoding is encoding, despite your statement to the contrary.

Personally, I don't really care what you call it, but if you're going to the trouble to correct someone on some inane, pointless technicality, you should at least be right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ES_Revenge View Post
Yes, in realtime, sure. But that's not what we're talking about many times realtime. In fact if we're talking about 500fps that's some 21x faster than realtime for a standard BD movie @ 24fps. And the OP is complaining this is still too slow, so yes he should probably understand that first off there's more than just encoding (alone) going on, and that this is about as fast as he can get with current technology without delving into other avenues (like pro gear like I mentioned). Not to mention the fact that HDD and flash memory card transfers are going to hinder the process.
Doesn't matter if we're talking realtime or 500x realtime. A properly designed multithreaded transcode/re-encode engine is setup as a pipeline, not as a series of discreet steps. Regardless of what speed you're running the encoder will always take longer than the decoder, which means the decoder will always (except for the first frames into the pipeline) be waiting on the encoder. The time it takes to decode a frame isn't in addition to the time it takes to encode, it happens simultaneously with the encode. The two processes are happening in parallel.

So again, the decode portion of the transcode/re-encode is pretty much irrelevant, like I said the first time.

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post #16 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Yeah, most phones are limited to USB 2.0 speed. A 1GB movie file will takes a minute or two to copy over. So, it probably takes 30-minutes to copy the source material from NAS and 2 minutes to copy the encoded file back to phone. So the 5 minutes encoding time suddenly doesn't seem to much of an issue. If you encode from the NAS, it will take significantly longer.
This is not good news. I didn't consider any of this.

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post #17 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Andy_Steb View Post
If you want higher quality, you're not going to get 559fps.

also your 559fps is coming from an I7-4770K
Yeah, the 559 I was assuming was at best quality. And even at best quality it wouldn't be as good as pure software encoding. But I was okay with that as it was going to a phone or a tablet. But if that 559 was done at some FAST setting then I would have to actually look at the quality of the image on the tablet and see if I would be happy with it.

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post #18 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Personally, I convert my collection to mobile friendly MP4 format (via Handbrake Nightly with Intel QSV @ 720p) and keep copies of the MP4 files on the Plex server (for Plex Sync to tablets) and on 2.5" 2TB portable HDDs (for long vacations with my laptop acting as both Plex server and client).
I think I'm going to have to read this paragraph a couple of times. It's kinda what I thought about doing a while back when encoding took so long. But I was thinking at 559 fps it would be drag and drop but in this thread I'm finding out it's not. So I might have to reconsider your setup.

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post #19 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 09:53 PM
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Re-encoding is also redundant, since it's the same thing as transcoding. Generally "encoding" denotes going from an uncompressed source to some type of compressed source, whether it be a lossless or lossy one. "Transcoding" has the connotation of going from a lossy format to another lossy format (even if both formats are the same, e.g. MP3 -> MP3) and the generational quality loss associated with that process, but this distinction is not necessary, as transcoding is just going from one compression format to another, so FLAC -> MP3 is transcoding, even though there is no generational quality loss associated with it, since FLAC offers lossless compression.

The process of compressing a video is always transoding, because unlike audio data, which takes up relatively little space in uncompressed form (LPCM), video data takes up far more space, so your source for encoding is never a lossless original. As such, you're always transcoding one video stored with lossy compression to another video stored with lossy compression (unless you use CRF 0, which generates lossless output that will consequently be far larger than the input file, thus making the transcoding process entirely counterproductive).

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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
Regardless of what speed you're running the encoder will always take longer than the decoder, which means the decoder will always (except for the first frames into the pipeline) be waiting on the encoder.
Well, this isn't universally true. For instance, consider decoding an H.265 video for the purposes of transcoding it to H.262. MPEG-4 and 5 offer far more efficient compression than MPEG-2, and decoding H.264 and H.265 streams consequently requires far more CPU cycles than decoding H.262. If you were to transcode H.265 to H.262 with your MPEG-2 encoder configured to use fast settings, the transcoding process would likely be limited by the speed of the input (decompressing the H.265 file), rather than the output (compressing the H.262 file).
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post #20 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
Well, this isn't universally true. For instance, consider decoding an H.265 video for the purposes of transcoding it to H.262. MPEG-4 and 5 offer far more efficient compression than MPEG-2, and decoding H.264 and H.265 streams consequently requires far more CPU cycles than decoding H.262. If you were to transcode H.265 to H.262 with your MPEG-2 encoder configured to use fast settings, the transcoding process would likely be limited by the speed of the input (decompressing the H.265 file), rather than the output (compressing the H.262 file).
As is usually the case, you are correct, Sir. I should have further qualified my statement to state when transcoding to the same codec. (and even then I suppose it's possible that you could conceivably have some weird setup where you have hardware assisted encoding, but not decoding... but that seems like that would be a bit of an outlier.)

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post #21 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TimHuey View Post
I think I'm going to have to read this paragraph a couple of times. It's kinda what I thought about doing a while back when encoding took so long. But I was thinking at 559 fps it would be drag and drop but in this thread I'm finding out it's not. So I might have to reconsider your setup.
I use QuickSync (Balanced, QP 20) and I was getting ~150 fps with Game of Thrones so it's still a lot quicker than your typical x264 fast or medium encode. I just queue up the episodes and leave it running in the background while go on about my tasks. It appears to use the GPU more than the CPU. Even on a measly dual-core Pentium G3220, there's plenty of CPU time available for web browsing, etc while an encode is running.
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post #22 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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So then that brings up a question. If my TRANSCODING is now faster than the file can be written, what happens? Does the transcoding just slow or does it still go fast and dump to a tmp file or does the whole process blow up?

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post #23 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
I suppose it's possible that you could conceivably have some weird setup where you have hardware assisted encoding, but not decoding... but that seems like that would be a bit of an outlier.
I would concur. You could use a software decoder piped to a hardware encoder, but doing that wouldn't make much sense, since the hardware encoder should be capable of decoding, too. After all, the whole point of the QSV codec is to eliminate the need for performing these tasks in software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHuey View Post
So then that brings up a question. If my TRANSCODING is now faster than the file can be written, what happens? Does the transcoding just slow or does it still go fast and dump to a tmp file or does the whole process blow up?
The process proceeds only as fast as the slowest link in the processing chain. If the QS encoder on an i7 4770K can encode at 559 fps but is bottlenecked by a slow storage medium, you won't get 559 fps and the QSV engine won't be taxed at 100% (although you can't tell what percentage of the QSV engine is in use with something like the Windows Task Manager, because the Task Manager only reports CPU usage statistics and not the usage of the other components in the CPU).
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post #24 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
I would concur. You could use a software decoder piped to a hardware encoder, but doing that wouldn't make much sense, since the hardware encoder should be capable of decoding, too. After all, the whole point of the QSV codec is to eliminate the need for performing these tasks in software.
That also depends on the source and software. Last I encoded some VC-1 BD rips in Handbrake Nightly, it appeared to be doing decoding in software. Either that or hardware decode acceleration works faster for H.264 than VC-1. I know encoding times vary based on content but the VC-1 rips were pretty consistent at 50-60 fps while H.264 rips were at 100-120 fps (Core i3-2100 Sandy Bridge).
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post #25 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Personally, I convert my collection to mobile friendly MP4 format (via Handbrake Nightly with Intel QSV @ 720p) and keep copies of the MP4 files on the Plex server (for Plex Sync to tablets) and on 2.5" 2TB portable HDDs (for long vacations with my laptop acting as both Plex server and client).
I Keep rereading this and I keep getting more and more jealous. You must be using some heavy scripting to automate the process. I don't think Handbrake has scheduling capabilities does it. I have a 4tuner cable card which allows me to DVR my shows to my harddrive but I don't have anyway to get them into a special folder just for conversion automatically. Like I said I'm terrible at doing things and preplanning, but if I can automate the process I'm good to go. A programmer will spend 30 hours writing a process to automate something that will take 10 mins to do.

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post #26 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TimHuey View Post
I Keep rereading this and I keep getting more and more jealous. You must be using some heavy scripting to automate the process. I don't think Handbrake has scheduling capabilities does it. I have a 4tuner cable card which allows me to DVR my shows to my harddrive but I don't have anyway to get them into a special folder just for conversion automatically. Like I said I'm terrible at doing things and preplanning, but if I can automate the process I'm good to go. A programmer will spend 30 hours writing a process to automate something that will take 10 mins to do.
While I can probably create an automated script using Handbrake CLI if I made the effort, I actually just use the GUI to manually add encoding jobs for movies and TV shows to the queue. I just created a generic preset for Blu-ray to 720p MP4 and for DVD to 480p MP4. It takes just a minute or so to select the source, choose audio and subtitle tracks, and add them to the queue. Once I've got a bunch of movies or a season's worth of episodes on the queue, I just click Start and then go to sleep.
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post #27 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post
While I can probably create an automated script using Handbrake CLI if I made the effort, I actually just use the GUI to manually add encoding jobs for movies and TV shows to the queue. I just created a generic preset for Blu-ray to 720p MP4 and for DVD to 480p MP4. It takes just a minute or so to select the source, choose audio and subtitle tracks, and add them to the queue. Once I've got a bunch of movies or a season's worth of episodes on the queue, I just click Start and then go to sleep.
If you create a profile (or profiles) that is multipurpose, you can actually do batch encodes now with handbrake if you use the nightly build. (which you would be using anyway if you're using QSV)

The biggest caveat is that the files you want to encode need to be in the same folder. (I've personally never found that to be an issue by ymmv)

But all you need to do is:

1) Select your profile
2) Go to Source and select folder.
3) Browse to the folder that contains your files and select it.

Handbrake will go through each file present in the folder (it doesn't recurse) And add each one as a Title that will be accessible from the Title dropdown menu.

Then you can either Click on Add To Queue for each individual file, or hot the dropdown arrow and Add All.

It is still a beta feature so it acts a little wonky sometimes, (it'll crash when parsing the files sometimes) but I've found if it gives you any grief, you can open an individual file first, (you don't have to add it to the Queue, but you can) then open the folder and let it do its thing.

If you're wanting to include subs, or multiple audio streams it will require a little more intervention, but I still think it's easier to get them loaded up into HB this way.

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post #28 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 05:10 PM
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2) Go to Source and select folder.

Handbrake will go through each file present in the folder (it doesn't recurse) And add each one as a Title that will be accessible from the Title dropdown menu.

Then you can either Click on Add To Queue for each individual file, or hot the dropdown arrow and Add All.
Yup, I know. Actually, even Handbrake 0.9.9 allows selecting folders as source. I use this for my DVD folder rips (with Add all). Alas, most of my rips are in ISO format (with multiple episodes in each) and last time I tried, using Source->Folder didn't work too well with those.
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post #29 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 10:48 PM
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I've found the easiest way to split TV DVDs into episodes is to use IFO mode in DVD Decrypter, which will let you write a set of VOB files for each episode, rather than simply dumping all the VOBs from the disc with their original names.
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post #30 of 37 Old 08-27-2014, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
I've found the easiest way to split TV DVDs into episodes is to use IFO mode in DVD Decrypter, which will let you write a set of VOB files for each episode, rather than simply dumping all the VOBs from the disc with their original names.
Having separate VIDEO_TS folders for each episode actually makes adding to Handbrake more tedious as instead of a DVD/ISO with 2-4 episodes each, you now have to add each episode folder one by one.
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