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integrated graphics issue?

1K views 10 replies 4 participants last post by  fierce_gt 
#1 ·
I recently put together a new HTPC, the goal was to keep things simple, so I opted for not using a video card, and I'm noticing some strange issues now.


my build:
-i3 4360
-msi z97s sli plus mobo
-crucial m500 m.2 ssd
-4gb Kingston HyperX FURY 4GB DDR3-1866MHz


and right now my media is stored on external drives(same as previous system)


so here's what I'm noticing. first, I've done a calibration(with i1d3 meter) and there's just lots of weird things I've never encountered before.
first, I can't use full range RGB. if I set it to 0-255, there is no brightness setting(on pc or tv) that does not have severe dithering on what should be solid black. I realize there will be dithering just above black, but there shouldn't be any at black. so I had to set it to limited, which is ok, as it'll be for video anyway. but then I noticed that the bars just above black(17-22ish) have different colors. even though I've calibrated my greyscale(and double checked by resetting calibration to default settings) and it's still messed up. and I think I'm able to see this in content. shadows(especially on ppl's faces) seem to change color noticeably.
see here for what I'm talking about, keep in mind this is AFTER calibrating greyscale, but it doesn't really matter what my settings are on the tv, it behaves similarly



it's hard to capture on camera, but my overall greyscale still looks good.





the other thing I've noticed, which may be related, is just an increase in dithering in general.


as far I can tell I've disabled all the 'features' like dynamic contrast, skin tone correction, etc in the intel graphics properties. and I never had these issues with my old pc.


I have, and can use the video card from my old pc, and right now I guess that's my plan. but if I don't have to, I don't want to. so I'm wondering if this is a known issue, or if there's a setting I should look for?
 
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#2 ·
Intel IGP is known to enforce limited range on HDMI output. There are many threads here about this but this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...-quantization-range-setting-full-0-255-a.html contains a solution (you need to modify registry key).


Keep that in mind, the Intel driver will map desktop full-range into limited range output unless you apply the registry fix to use full range output. Your issue seems to be a double conversion, e.g. the media playback software already output video as limited range and send to video driver which converted again.
 
#3 ·
Intel IGP is known to enforce limited range on HDMI output.
This was fixed with the latest driver 15.36.7.64.3960 (graphics driver version 10.18.10.3960).

 

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#4 ·
yeah I had that control. although things didn't seem to 'line up' well, or as expected anyway. when using the full range I had to set brightness on my tv to like 20(and yeah I had it set to accept full range RGB). when using limited, things seemed 'right', except for the greyscale issues.


either way, it was the weird 'rainbows' in the greyscale that bothered me. I googled some stuff last night and basically came to the conclusion it would be easier and faster just to install my old GPU. if for no other reason than I was familiar with the controls and new how to set them properly.


it's kind of unfortunate, I put a lot of thought into what motherboard/cpu I was going to buy, and making sure I had 'decent' integrated graphics and an hdmi output was pretty key. now it appears I won't be using either anyway...


oh well, I put the other gpu in(an HiS r7 250) and it's back to 'normal' again.
 
#5 ·
I'm bumping this up because it still seems to be an issue, although improved(maybe) with the gpu installed, it's still quite different than it was with my old pc.


it SEEMS to be mostly ok with content, but I figured it was worth at least looking into, so here's some more info on what I'm seeing...




first, i'll post some pics of what my old pc was giving me(after calibration)




as you can see, this is the dithering of my plasma, but it's VERY uniform. there's no red creeping in anywhere, and it certainly doesn't go from a green tint to a red tint to a blue tint bar to bar. compare that to the image I posted in the first post, and you can see there's a very different thing happening.


to add further to this, I've also checked in on my jvc x35 projector, and it's showing the same kind of 'rainbow' effect, so I'm quite certain it's not an issue of the display or its settings.


so the only thing that has changed has been the htpc. I'm currently using the exact same gpu, and I've tried all the settings I could in the amd software to get rid of it, nothing seems to help. my current settings are pretty close to what they were with my old pc. for interest, I have most 'features' turned off, contrast reduced to 98, and everything else at default settings. it's set to output 0-255 RGB and my displays are set to accept full range RGB.


so... is there anyway that something else in my computer is doing this? can the mobo effect video? is there something in the bios settings I could look for? is this a defect? I'm starting to get the impression that I'm not going to be able to fix this, which really sucks. it's one thing to build a new htpc and not get a significant upgrade, but it's a whole other when it gives a noticeable downgrade :(


for anybody not familiar with the test pattern, I've attached a copy of what it should look like
 

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#6 ·
Longshot but try enabling Spread Spectrum in your BIOS/UEFI (if it isn't already), see if that helps. This could be caused by EMI into the HDMI signal I'm thinking? Hopefully you have the Spread Spectrum option in there to see if that does anything. In older BIOSes this can be a "hidden feature" (revealing it can be done by hitting CTRL+F1 at the main screen and then looking through CPU settings thereafter), however on UEFIs I'm not sure if there's such a thing as hidden settings.
 
#7 · (Edited)
can you elaborate anymore on the EMI into HDMI thought?

i just ran these same patterns through my ps3, which i did maybe 2 weeks ago(and everything looked fine then), and i'm noticing some issues with it too. so if i didn't have those pictures i took over a month ago as reference, i'd think i was just misremembering. something is definitely fishy here, and maybe it's not the computer at all.

the only other thing i changed was instead of running a 35ft hdmi cable from my old pc at the back of the room, i have a 6ft hdmi cable running into my avr since the htpc is now at the front of the room.

after that, the hdmi out from my receiver is split by a powered 4way splitter. one goes to my projector, 2 into my tv(hdmi1 set for movies, hdmi2 set for games in 'pc mode'), and the last one goes to a tv in an adjacent room. none of that has been changed.

since we're talking interference stuff, i don't know if it's relevant or not, but i also moved my UPS slightly. it used to be behind my tv, it's now actually pretty close to my avr, and therefore the hdmi inputs... i don't have a lot of room, but maybe i'll try moving this away and see if anything changes

EDIT: moving the ups 10inches(that's all i could do without some major rewiring) didn't make any difference. as for the spread spectrum thing, i didn't see anything in the bios, and without knowing exactly what i'm doing in there, i didn't want to play around too much. i'm using an MSI z97s sli plus mobo if that helps at all.
 
#8 ·
Well, what Spread Spectrum does is it varies or modulates various clock signals within the computer, including the CPU's BCLK. This is done specifically to reduce things like EMI which would otherwise be greater and more concentrated if the signal was not varied.

Technically speaking Spread Spectrum should be enabled by default to comply with FCC regulations (I suspect this is why it's usually a 'hidden feature'). Obviously that applies for products sold in the US only but I'm guessing many other countries (and likely the EU) have similar regulations for EMI. Many people disable it when OCing thinking a "more stable"/locked clock improves OCing performance. However no solid evidence has been produced either way, and some claim spread spectrum actually gives them stability when OC'd.

I have seen reports where people claim to have solved on-screen "sparkles" by enabling SS, how much merit there is to those claims I can't say but as I said it's worth looking into. Not sure how you would find such an option if you're not seeing it at the moment. Again if you haven't set it to off it *should* be enabled but motherboard manufacturers aren't exactly known to follow the rules (look at all the boards that can OC K processors now, that aren't supposed to according to Intel's specs). You may want to ask MSI if there's a way to access this setting, and then you could make sure it's enabled.

When you say your PS3 also started doing this, it's interesting that you also note your PC is now much closer than it used to be before. When you checked your PS3, was the PC also on at the time?

The other thing it could be is the display could simply be having problems instead of it being anything related to interference or noise in signalling. The ol' Occam's Razor, lol. Or does the problem also present on the other display and on the projector image?
 
#9 ·
thank you so much for your time and help, really appreciated.


i'll see what I can find out about the spread spectrum stuff to double check it's on.


when I played the pattern off my ps3, the HTPC was still on. the ps3 is on top of the htpc in my audio rack.


I did assume it was the settings on my f8500 at first. I've been spending a lot of time calibrating it, and after installing the new htpc I basically started fresh. so, between the new htpc, and the new calibration, I assumed it was the calibration. but when I checked the jvc projector, which hasn't been re-calibrated yet, and it showed the exact same coloration(17-18 slightly blue, 19-22 slightly green, 23-25 slightly red). I even tried over-adjusting my lowest greyscale point(5% on the jvc, 10% on the f8500) and neither one was able to improve this behaviour.


so, this seems to be when I've noticed the problem:
OLD PC
-ps3 on f8500: no
-ps3 on x35: no
-pc on f8500: no
-pc on x35: no


NEW HTPC
-ps3 on f8500: yes
-ps3 on x35: yes
-htpc on f8500: yes
-htpc on x35: yes


I still do NOT see this happening on the tv in my bedroom that's hooked up to a small zotac pc, or to the cheap no name lcd hooked up to my old pc now. so I'm certain it's not an issue with the pattern itself, or something that is 'normal'.


other changes made since replacing my HTPC:
-old pc was at the back of the room, new htpc is in audio rack
-using a different hdmi cable. it's now a 6ft cable instead of 35ft
-I used to have one UPS behind the tv. and one UPS at the back of the room for the PC. now I have both UPS's at the front of the room.


I may move the htpc to another room/display as part of my troubleshooting. that should tell me whether it's really part of the problem, or if it's more likely one of the other changes I made.
 
#11 · (Edited)
stranger and stranger...


here's what the ps3 displayed when my htpc was hooked up and running:



this is what the ps3 displayed when my htpc was disconnected and in a different room:



and here's what the htpc displayed when it was hooked up to a different display in that different room:





I would say that this means it's NOT the htpc. although there was some improvement when adding the gpu versus the integrated graphics. and there was some improvement on the ps3 vs the htpc. and there was some improvement on the ps3 when I removed the htpc from the room. clearly the best performance of all is from the htpc on a different display.


so I'm going to try moving the hdmi splitter around maybe next. i'll try bypassing it to start, see if that helps. and if so, i'll see if I can move it away from my receiver more.


EDIT:
bypassed hdmi splitter - no difference


I don't know, I think I might just live with this for a while. fortunately it's not really bad with actual content
 
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