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End of an era. RIP - WMC

4K views 103 replies 41 participants last post by  bryansj 
#1 ·
Well folks, looks like all wrangling (and hacking) aside, we're fast reaching the EOL stage for WMC. That doesn't mean it's going to stop working right away, but the writing's on the wall. With Microsoft's decision with Windows 10 and WMC, it looks like they made a "business" decision to drop this, and quite frankly I don't blame them. It makes all sorts of business sense.

I'm gonna miss this forum, as it had been a part of my life for almost a decade, but the activity has dropped off a cliff lately, and I suspect it's not going to pick up. I miss those days when we used to argue endlessly over which motherboard was better and which one could do HD-DVD with on-board video!!:eek:

I guess I'm just feeling a lil nostalgic. I'm probably going to move to Tivo as well, since it's pretty much the only game in town now.

:eek:
 
#3 ·
Xbox One not being an extender was the first nail in the coffin.

The slowdown of the HTPC forum probably started when simply having an Intel chip with an iGPU could push out 1080p 3D with HD audio. A lot of talk shifted to media servers. I know I'm basically here for the media server side of things.
 
#8 ·
I think WMC's viability is going to vary a lot between people.

I don't think it's a product that one can rely on to be working 5 years from now so the future certainly doesn't look bright, but I think for many its still an acceptable solution. I'm entertaining a replacement for it, not because I think it's dead, but because I know it's dying. It's pretty clear that MS is trying to wash their hands of it. I think The Guide Change was the last effort we'll see for WMC, and that appears to be a cost cutting measure (avoiding payment to 2 different data providers) more than anything.

That said, I can't think of any reason for MS to change/cripple/disable anything else moving forward.

Of course for some people it doesn't matter if it is still working in older versions of windows (or even hacked into a current version) they want it supported in the latest Windows release so for them it isn't viable anymore.
For others the guide provider switch was more than their household could bear so for them it isn't viable either.

No doubt the numbers are dwindling, and will probably continue to do so as other alternatives become available, cheaper and more capable.

So while I agree that as a retail product, WMC is basically dead, I think it will continue to work for many people for years to come.
 
#13 ·
M$ switching the guide provider has caused a lot of problems for a lot of people. I get the new guide but the data (program titles & descriptions) is sometimes missing on a couple of the channels. I guess I'm lucky because some people still can't get the guide. A lot of talk about this on thegreenbutton forum.

Some people switched to Tivo when they had the $300 lifetime deal. I thought about it but the HTPC is still working so I'm hanging in there.

Someone on thegreenbutton forum did get WMC to use the guide from Schedules Direct. So even if M$ stops supporting WMC that should be no reason to stop using it. WMC is never updated anyway. Switch guide providers & keep using WMC. Using Tivo may be the easier way to go. But there are options.
 
#15 ·
And let me add. It's not that my WMC HTPCs have stopped working as such, but given all the other limitations (hello Netflix..) and the fact that BD disc playback on an HTPC is pretty much dead now, I just don't see the point in continuing with this platform. The intent was an "all in one box", which worked for a while, but has been going downhill, in terms of functionality lately. In addition, cable boxes/Tivo used to have two tuners typically, whereas with WMC you could have way more. Well, that situation has changed as well.

I think it's time to say the last rites to WMC, as far as I'm concerned. However, that's just me... :) It doesn't mean it applies to anyone else.

More than WMC, I'm going to miss this forum. Without WMC and/or HTPC based media consumption, the discussions here are not going to be as interesting as in the past. As others have said, we're pretty much talking media servers now, instead of "HTPCs".
 
#17 · (Edited)
A few thoughts:

I get the 8-year old thing. I have a 9-year old son, and really, he's taken to the HTPC very well. He also spends most of his time on his tablet or xbox 360, but I didn't have to teach him how to navigate WMC. He just did it with very little guidance from me. My wife.. well.. different story. There's a reason it's called "wife acceptance factor". I've always tried to design my entertainment systems "one box, one remote", and I agree that with the difficulties with streaming, netflix, blu-ray playback and the uncertainty of guide data and cablecard support, the HTPC ain't what it used to be.

But that doesn't mean it's dead.

There are still ways (cumbersome though they may be) to view streaming content on HTPC's. I can still get youtube videos and I've been experimenting with Pluto.tv. I also have some local radio stations available as tiles in WMC. It's not as smooth as I'd like, but it works. I think there's still value in a PC-ish device attached to the TV. I no longer have DVD players on my HTPC's.. I rip all content now. Just simpler and easier to manage that way, so the Blu-ray playback is irrelevant to me. As long as my HTPC can play back my music, show me my pictures and home videos, play back movies and record TV shows, and I can watch the Red Sox lose using MLB.tv, I'm keeping them. I think what's really dying here is the idea that an HTPC can do it all.

Keep in mind that there are mighty forces at work in the entertainment world today. People are spending less and less time in front of their TV sets. Cable companies are quietly talking about alacarte options and streaming subscriptions, and the existience of popular alternative content on streaming services coupled with the exorbinant fees cable companies charge and the abysmal service they offer will continue to encourage people to look elsewhere for entertainment options. It's kinda the wild west out there. Some products will survive, and others will fade, but in the end, we'll benefit.

A lot can and will happen in the five years of productive life that remains for WMC. Those of us who have struggled with the HTPC are in a far better position to capitalize on the next big thing (whatever that may be).
 
#16 ·
Switching to TiVo here myself soon - waiting to see what their new box is all about.


It makes all sorts of business sense.
Perhaps now, but they really blew it. If they had thrown any muscle at all behind this, they may have had a winner. They should have worked with every content provider they could to get apps written. WMC could have been the platform to integrate everything. They got Netlix and that's pretty much it, and that app got sub-par fast. Really, 1 full-time programmer on staff could have probably written and maintained apps for all major online content providers in a year's time but they couldn't even manage that. They should have supported SiliconDust and Ceton, pushed for hardware that was WMC-specific. They could have worked with cable providers and owned a good percentage of the set top box market but they blew it.


We can argue about techie stuff all day, but I want my 8 year old to be able to pick up a remote, not worry about, whether it's gonna work or not, and pick her show.
Agreed. It needs to be a TV, remote, and that's it. No keyboard/mouse at every TV. My mother-in-law needs to be able to use it too!


Tablets and laptops are the tools of the day. TVs? That's for us old fuddy-duddies.
Maybe tablets, but TiVo excels there as well. They seem to have become what the HTPC should have been if the players had their ducks in a row.


The deal is still live.
Where? There's a basic Roamio refurb deal going on. Is there something else?
 
#22 ·
I still see the deal on the banner at the top of the TiVo home page.
What deal are you seeing exactly? I see $49 for a refurb Roamio (basic) + $249 for the lifetime service. Which is a great deal. But, I don't see a $300 lifetime service deal for any of their other DVRs.


If I can do that, then what's stopping me from using relaunch to add my own custom netflix button to Windows Media Center? Wouldn't that effectively resolve the netflix issue on WMC?
I believe there's no way to control it via IR remote control.
 
#29 ·
I've been using a HTPC for six years and have built two for myself and one for a co-worker. My first HTPC was converted to a media server which later I upgraded with "server parts" and my second is still running. My current HTPC is getting a bit old and seemed to always have some sort of HDMI handshake issue with WMC and would welcome my family to a blank screen whenever I was away... I had considered building a new one, but held off to see if Win10 would fix it. Well, Win10 dropped WMC so maybe the SiliconDust DVR would come to the rescue. Not looking good there. Well maybe this Nvidia Shield can be tweaked to do live TV with Kodi, Emby, ServerWMC, NextPVR, or whatever. I sort of got live TV working with my SD Prime and Android TV and I sort of got the DVR working with some combo of things, but it all sucked one way or another. I recently got in on the TiVo deal for $300 plus a Mini. Here is my opinion on the state of HTPCs.

Streaming? Roku, Shield, or Chromecast destroy the HTPC, but that is because of content provider restrictions. However, that is how things are today.

Casting? $30 Chromecast or Shield can do that. Comes in handy, but not used much on the main TV. Chromecast is great for vacations and gifts for family.

3D playback? Arcsoft TMT is what I used on my new 3D TV, but you had to mount .ISO images or get stuck with SBS crap. Well TMT is gone so time to integrate something else. Or realize I moved about a year ago and haven't even unpacked the box containing my 3D glasses.

Blu-ray playback? I just pre-rip everything now to lossless MKV. If I wanted to play a disc then I'd need to deal with TMT or find a replacement which would cost more than buying a Blu-ray player. If I did buy a Blu-ray player it would stream better than the HTPC.

Extenders? For a WMC HTPC that would be a Xbox 360 or maybe an Echo if Win 7. Both are dead ends. A TiVo Mini does live TV and DVR sharing of protected content. It even has streaming from the big (and small) players.

TV/DVR? Again a WMC HTPC is currently the only way to view protected cable content, but you also lose on-demand. I don't have protected content on my service so I'm free to use other cablecard alternatives. Those mostly suck compared to WMC. A TiVo works great with protected content and can also stream as well as use Xfinity OnDemand. If you haven't used the OnePass feature: you set your show to record and it can source streaming provider content to populate the series. Example: Spongebob added to a new TiVo with Netflix and Amazon Prime Streaming. The instant you add the series it will have many seasons already available for viewing since they are on the streaming sites. You simply pick it like you would if it was recorded from the DVR and it'll play using streaming.

Local content? The HTPC is great for this. However, I think a Shield 2.0 update might give it a run for its money. If Shield 2.0 can get HD audio and 24Hz playback going then I'll probably unplug the HTPC. My kids have been using the TiVo Plex app for their TV shows and movies. I've been using it a little, but will switch to the HTPC for any quality viewing.

Support? My new TiVo has worked since I plugged it in. I've traveled twice and never got "the TV is broken" call or text (WMC blank screen). I made my HTPC a Win10 Plex HT box. The last time I looked it was sitting with an update notification. I need to dig out the keyboard and turn that off or something, but nobody seems to care.
 
#32 ·
I gave WMC the boot back in July and updated my laptop to Windows 10 a few weeks ago, permanently killing WMC in my household.

I have an Nvidia Shield and Nexus Player. With that said, Android TV is the WMC replacement for me. I watch live OTA Broadcast through ATV's native live TV app. No DVR functionality at the moment, as I'm waiting for Silicon Dust's solution. Netflix, Pluto TV, and Sling TV are services I use as well.


I use Kodi on the Nvidia Shield and Plex on the Nexus Player. Until Nvidia adds support for Amazon Instant, my Blu Ray player and a Roku Stick will suffice.

I turned my HTPC into a NAS server and moved it out of the living room. It's so quiet now. Freenas with Plex Media Server is installed and distributed content to my Shield, Nexus Player, and mobile devices.

I love the Android TV interface, very fast and snappy. The Nvidia Shield is a powerful device. I actually plan on replacing the Nexus Player with a other Shield because of the fact I can stream full BD rips with ease compared to the NP.

Although I do have Kodi and SD's HD HomeRun's live TV apps installed, coupled with Dolby Digital Support, I much prefer Android TV'S live TV interface, which also includes PlutoTV within its Guide Data. With regards to changing channels, ATV's live TV app is just as fast as WMC. I've used other PVR solutions in the past such as Next PVR and The WMC add-on for Kodi, and WMC would run laps around them IMO.

With all of that said, the time is now to transition to a new platform. There are solutions out there to be tested and used, and as a Cord-Cutter, continuing to find a solid and headache-free solution for our entertainment needs is an ongoing process. The TiVo solution IMO is a solid one and you can't turn down the price for the lifetime deal. For those of you who like to tinker, The Nvidia Shield is an incredible little beast of a machine. Throwing 4k content at it over a solid 802.11ac network sold me.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
#33 ·
I understand the nostalgia to a degree but I'm also kinda glad those days are behind us.

The reason that I connected my PC to my TV back in 1997 (Thanks ATI 3D Pro Turbo+ PC2TV!) was because nothing else out there could do what my computer did. It was the only way to do what I wanted to do. Now cheap little appliances have filled in that niche nicely. That's a good thing. While I enjoy fiddling with things and figuring out how to make it work juuuuuust right it was also a burden after a while. These days I'd rather just buy a cheap widget, plug it in and be done with it. I would have back in 1997 too if such a device existed.
 
#34 ·
Now cheap little appliances have filled in that niche nicely. That's a good thing. While I enjoy fiddling with things and figuring out how to make it work juuuuuust right it was also a burden after a while. These days I'd rather just buy a cheap widget, plug it in and be done with it. I would have back in 1997 too if such a device existed.
There's also far fewer hardware and build threads here these days than there once was. Even in the last year it has decreased and it seems the HTPC forum in general on AVS, is much less active too. Presumably this is because far less people are needing to build, setup, and tweak PCs to do what they can do "out of the box" with one of these "appliances" as you say.


There's still lots of people out there using HTPCs and there's certainly many things that they can do that the "appliances" cannot but the fact is many people only need them to do what they can. Stuff like Roku, FireTV, built-in TV apps, etc. have taken away a lot of the need/desire to make "HTPC"s. Even HTPCs themselves are a lot simpler as these days--products like NUCs provide much easier hardware decisions and no hardware setup other than plugging in a couple cables. Even building a box, if you don't need gaming, for the vast majority of hardware today you don't need a videocard either. Indeed we're a long ways from the craptastic composite-converted blurry output of ATi Rage cards, lol. I mean nothing against those cards--as you say that's really all there was that was affordable back then--but definitely glad we're far ahead of that kind of thing today.
 
#35 ·
HTPC is still going strong for me, in fact I'm looking at an upgrade in the next few months. I can see how for many people it would be less useful but when running video renderers like MadVR an HTPC is really the only option. JRiver has been a great all in one program for my needs.
 
#37 ·
I have two HTPC's. My primary one is based on the (very old) MSI Media Live Diva 5.1 board. It has a 5.1 channel 100 watt/channel amp card on the motherboard that I power a set of JBL home theater speakers. For Live TV, movies, and sporting events, it's always done a spectacular job. I have a terabyte of storage and a ATI Raedon 6450 graphics card in it now and it's worked beautifully. I have now a total of three replacement boards for it should mine ever crap out.

My "lesser" HTPC is a mini-itx build. Less powerful, but it only does live TV, music and the occasional movie. I have a Bose Cinemate II 2.1 audio system on it. I designed it for a small footprint, but the Bose really packs a punch. It'll hook up to my son's xbox 360 if I ever decide it's time to pass it down to him.

All live TV recordings are archived to my windows home server 2011 box, which has also served me very well. I just built a homemade rack for it under my desk. There are now a total of eight drives in it. I have FIOS and my guide still works. Both systems are using WMC and are configured identically, so my family instantly knows how to use them. I've implemented a tablet-based custom remote for both systems. I've finally achieved it. One box, one remote.

I'm planning to ride that train as far as it'll take me.
 
#38 ·
My thought on why MS is "abandoning" WMC is the inevitable change in the whole TV consumption business. I am sure in a few years (or less) the DVR as we know it will be done. NO program guides, or even prime time. Everything will be "on demand", streamed from the mothership and NO way to archive it.


I still use my HTPC daily as a C.C. DVR (including HBO) and for the most part, it's running very stable. Started to look a little "dated" compared to both the (finally) 21st century look of the Xfinity X1 platform, as well as even the "Chocolate" theme in MB (Emby) .

My son has the XB1 and am anxious to see what kind of a solution for TV they come up with for it.
 
#39 ·
My thought on why MS is "abandoning" WMC is the inevitable change in the whole TV consumption business. I am sure in a few years (or less) the DVR as we know it will be done. NO program guides, or even prime time. Everything will be "on demand", streamed from the mothership and NO way to archive it.
I don't think so. Especially the "few years (or less)". Unless you think "few" means 10 or 15.
 
#41 ·
Maybe. Maybe not. "Broadcast TV" as we know it, is changing. The whole business model of packaging umpteen (crappy) channels together with the few that viewers really want, and charging an arm and a leg for it, is dying. Albeit slowly. Then there was the bundling of Internet and TV. If you got Internet, they gave you TV for a really low price....except...the Internet was horrendously overpriced. (In Europe, you can get gigabit down AND up, for pennies. Well more like $30-40 per month, but you get my point).

Now, granted, the US is not Europe. The entire European landmass will probably fit in Texas. :) So, we have different challenges than Europe. That being said, the cable companies have enjoyed a near monopoly for wired Internet/TV for decades. That's not going to change anytime soon. They may be losing TV viewership, but they will just jack up the Internet costs, and/or introduce usage tiers.

It's a lose lose situation for the consumer, and I suspect it's not gonna change for a while, other than in places like Kansas...which got Google fiber. But Google can't do a national level deployment either. It's just too expensive. Ask Verizon. They tried...and stopped all new FIOS roll-outs.
 
#42 ·
I'm in no hurry to change anything. I'll use WMC with a cablecard and OTA tuner until I'm completely unable to, then I'll probably move on to whatever replaces cablecard (some kind of internet streaming box likely).

But if I have no control over content I doubt I'll subscribe to much. Curating my recordings is one of my favorite aspects of the hobby. If I can't do that then there isn't much of a point.
 
#47 ·
Working fine means it works like 7 or 8. I'd assume if someone does figure that out that Microsoft will work diligently to break it, since there would be a number of licensing issues and people not being paid for patents and whatnot.
 
#48 ·
Right now they have it installing with limited functionality.

Copy protected content is not functional. I'm skeptical it ever will as there are too many files being modified to keep the whole "protected path" thing happy. Granted they got a lot farther along than I thought they would, so I suppose anything is possible.

I haven't seen anyone confirm a functional extender, but XBOX360s will be the only ones that have a possibility, as Win10 will still have the same RDP changes that caused 3rd party extenders not to work on Win8.

Next thig they'll need to do is figure out how to disable all of the auto-updates in Win10 or the software is just as likely to get broken by everyday patches as it is by a deliberate attempt from MS to break it.
 
#53 ·
Astonished

I have read all the thread to be sure. I'm astonished reading that people is going to abandon HTPCs because WMC is dying :eek: :eek: :eek:

Have you ever heard of XBMC/Kodi? Lots of add-ons to watch movies, tv shows, music, live tv in internet... PVR add-on where you can watch your cable/antenna TV from your provider? With TV guide (EPG), of course... Add-ons to manage your pc-games, emulators, etc... The best library manager for movies/tv shows/music... Version for Windows, Linux (better choice IMHO), Android, Apple... DLNA, you can stream to the whole household...

I'm sorry. As I re-read my post I feel stupid explaining the virtues of XBMC/Kodi, because I suppose everybody knows it. Why is people still stucked in WMC is a mystery for me yet :p

And yes, I live in Europe, in a country with a landmass almost equal to Texas'... :D
 
#54 ·
I have read all the thread to be sure. I'm astonished reading that people is going to abandon HTPCs because WMC is dying :eek: :eek: :eek:

Have you ever heard of XBMC/Kodi? Lots of add-ons to watch movies, tv shows, music, live tv in internet... PVR add-on where you can watch your cable/antenna TV from your provider? With TV guide (EPG), of course... Add-ons to manage your pc-games, emulators, etc... The best library manager for movies/tv shows/music... Version for Windows, Linux (better choice IMHO), Android, Apple... DLNA, you can stream to the whole household...

I'm sorry. As I re-read my post I feel stupid explaining the virtues of XBMC/Kodi, because I suppose everybody knows it. Why is people still stucked in WMC is a mystery for me yet :p

And yes, I live in Europe, in a country with a landmass almost equal to Texas'... :D
If you read more than just "This" thread, then you will discover that many of us do know and use Kodi, Plex, Emby, JRiver, and other media solutions along with WMC. For a solid DVR Solution, WMC is the best outside of a Tivo. Many of us are fully aware of that.

Some of us here, especially considering what happened with regards to Microsoft's transition to Rovi for for Guide Data have been frustrated with having to troubleshoot.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm simply tired of troubleshooting and editing, importing, and deleting files just for guide data to appear, amongst other things.

My home network infrastructure is at a place where I could afford to move to another platform. Plex and Kodi are still in use in my household. Live TV can be viewed through Android TV's live TV App with guide data coming from Silicon Dust. When Silicon Dust finally offers their DVR Solution to the Public, I will move to their platform. I also do not plan on recording a lot of shows this fall because I know they'll be gone by next season, so the need for a DVR Solution is no longer a priority.
 
#55 ·
How does Kodi do with viewing protected content with a cablecard tuner? Does it do well with Netflix and Amazon Prime streaming?

I'd say many that are abandoning WMC HTPCs will probably upgrade them to Win10 (or not) and run Kodi for local media playback. I'd rather run Kodi on my Nvidia Shield than on the HTPC, but it is still lacking until hopefully the 2.0 firmware.
 
#56 ·
I use Kodi and Plex strictly for watching Movies and TV Show Boxsets. Android TV on my Nvidia Shield and Nexus Player have Apps for Netflix, Hulu, Sling TV, etc. They do not have support for Amazon Prime at this time. For now I use my Blu Ray Player and a Roku Stick for Amazon Instant.
 
#59 ·
I don't understand why so many want to dump WMC simply because it's old and no longer being developed. These must be the same people that toss their iPhone 5 and stand in line for the iPhone 6, or buy a new car every year. As for me, until OTA broadcasts disappear, or guide data is no longer available, I'll continue with WMC. But you should know this is coming from a guy that used a ReplayTV for 10 years after the company went Chapter 11. Talk about end of support!
When I built the HTPC nearly three years ago, my wife fell in love with it. Not because of WMC, or the Hulu or Netflix apps, those things were just good. What she really loved was the Internet on the big screen.
So whatever device eventually replaces the HTPC, it better have a dam good web browser.
 
#60 ·
You guys are not reading things carefully. Nobody's arguing that WMC will stop working. But OTA broadcasts are NOT what we are talking here. We're concerned with cablecard/protected channels etc. Even with those, it's not that WMC will stop working right away, but the point is (or at least mine is) that's it's time to think about alternatives.

I have a sneaking suspicion, that Microsoft will kill the guide data in the not too distant future. Why? It makes sense.

- Either they will have a solution centered around the Xbox, in which case, these HTPCs are "competition" and taking away Xbox sales
- If the above does not happen, then Microsoft really doesn't give a **** about TV, so it makes sense to kill the Guide data anyway.
 
#64 ·
I have a sneaking suspicion, that Microsoft will kill the guide data in the not too distant future. Why? It makes sense.

- Either they will have a solution centered around the Xbox, in which case, these HTPCs are "competition" and taking away Xbox sales
- If the above does not happen, then Microsoft really doesn't give a **** about TV, so it makes sense to kill the Guide data anyway.
I've been very cautious in my approach to guide longevity (because of the way the WMC EULA is worded) however, the Rovi changeover has given me a sliver of hope.

I don't believe that changeover was cheap, nor easy, so if they were going to prematurely kill the guide, that was the time to do it (when the Real Housewives of WMC were already pissed off about it not being included in Win10)

Going over to Rovi, but WMC a little bit of time I think.

That said, I'm still looking at alternatives.
 
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