UHD Blu-ray Disc in BDXL Drive Test Request - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 687 Old 02-10-2016, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I'm just going by my PCs from four years ago with old Intel Graphics 2500. The PCs have no problem playing back the 2160P content and scaling it down 1440P. And the newer INtel on board graphics are even better and faster. And support up to three displays at up to 4096x2304@60Hz.
Yeah but what's that encoded in AVC/h.264? That's no sweat.


HEVC/h.265 is totally different and Intel HD 2500 certainly will not decode it at all (has no such capability). It'll be either on your CPU (which may not handle it either) or you'll need a dGPU the likes of Nvidia 9xx to do the decoding. Only those cards and Skylake HD Graphics will do HEVC decoding.


Last time I tried, I'm pretty sure I couldn't even do 1080p smoothly on an OC'd Lynnfield (1st Gen) i7, encoded in HEVC. So, what's possible with older codecs isn't necessarily true for HEVC.
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post #32 of 687 Old 02-10-2016, 12:11 PM
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So, what's possible with older codecs isn't necessarily true for HEVC.
All this is true. H.264 acceleration is available on just about everything. To do HEVC 10-bit, you either need insane compute power or a dedicated hardware decoder. I have been testing different HEVC encoded videos and it is indeed a dire state of affairs. With my overclocked 3570K and GTX 970 (Maxwell 1.0), I can almost playback HEVC Main10 4K content in VLC. Dropped frames aplenty. Until NVIDIA releases some sort of CUDA-accelerated decoder as part of the driver or someone develops one for other players, it's just not happening for my current PC. Just keep following the Doom9 forums.

As of this moment in time, only the following computer hardware can playback HEVC Main10 4K smoothly with 100% assurance:

GTX 950 (Maxwell 2.0 features full encode/decode acceleration)
GTX 960 (Maxwell 2.0 features full encode/decode acceleration)
AMD Carrizo APU (features full encode/decode acceleration, currently available in some laptops and coming soon to some desktops)

Unfortunately, Intel's current solution is only useful for 8-bit playback:
4th Generation Intel Core processors (Haswell CPU 2- 3.5GHz, 4 Cores): Includes an HEVC Software Decoder capable of real time decode of HEVC 4K streams.
5th Generation Intel Core processors (Broadwell): Supports HEVC 8-bit software/hybrid encode.
6th Generation Intel Core processors (Skylake) Supports hardware accelerated HEVC 8-bit decode and encode (Main10 support unlikely)
7th Generation Intel Core processors (Kaby Lake) will add support for HEVC Main10 decode and encode.
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post #33 of 687 Old 02-10-2016, 12:36 PM
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All this is true. H.264 acceleration is available on just about everything. To do HEVC 10-bit, you either need insane compute power or a dedicated hardware decoder. I have been testing different HEVC encoded videos and it is indeed a dire state of affairs. With my overclocked 3570K and GTX 970 (Maxwell 1.0), I can almost playback HEVC Main10 4K content in VLC. Dropped frames aplenty. Until NVIDIA releases some sort of CUDA-accelerated decoder as part of the driver or someone develops one for other players, it's just not happening for my current PC. Just keep following the Doom9 forums.

As of this moment in time, only the following computer hardware can playback HEVC Main10 4K smoothly with 100% assurance:

GTX 950 (Maxwell 2.0 features full encode/decode acceleration)
GTX 960 (Maxwell 2.0 features full encode/decode acceleration)
AMD Carrizo APU (features full encode/decode acceleration, currently available in some laptops and coming soon to some desktops)

Unfortunately, Intel's current solution is only useful for 8-bit playback:
4th Generation Intel Core processors (Haswell CPU 2- 3.5GHz, 4 Cores): Includes an HEVC Software Decoder capable of real time decode of HEVC 4K streams.
5th Generation Intel Core processors (Broadwell): Supports HEVC 8-bit software/hybrid encode.
6th Generation Intel Core processors (Skylake) Supports hardware accelerated HEVC 8-bit decode and encode (Main10 support unlikely)
7th Generation Intel Core processors (Kaby Lake) will add support for HEVC Main10 decode and encode.
The problem is lack of cheap dedicated hardware support for HEVC decoding in the PC world. Case in point, the Nvidia Shield is not nearly as powerful as a decent 3-year old PC. But, it's purpose-built for playing back HEVC and VP9 encoded video with comparatively cheap hardware. Same goes for TV's, stand alone UHD Blu-Ray players, Roku 4, and other 4K set top boxes.
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post #34 of 687 Old 02-10-2016, 01:58 PM
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4th and 5th generation Intel HD GPUs can decode HEVC on the GPU thanks to driver updates, as the QuickSync ASIC does not have the functions for HEVC decoding. Skylake uses GPU and QuickSync functions for 10-bit HEVC. Kaby Lake will use QuickSync for HEVC and likely VP9 as well. Right now, VP9 is only partially supported on 4th/5th/6th generation Intel HD graphics.
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post #35 of 687 Old 02-10-2016, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The problem is lack of cheap dedicated hardware support for HEVC decoding in the PC world. Case in point, the Nvidia Shield is not nearly as powerful as a decent 3-year old PC. But, it's purpose-built for playing back HEVC and VP9 encoded video with comparatively cheap hardware. Same goes for TV's, stand alone UHD Blu-Ray players, Roku 4, and other 4K set top boxes.
The same was true for AVC back in its early days too--like 2005-2007ish? Give it a couple years and every bargain basement dGPU, and every iGPU/APU will be able to do these things no problem.


The problem right now is Nvidia hasn't released any cheap/low-end Maxwell "2.0" GPUs as other than the video decoding, their old low-end cards are still suitable for their tasks. AMD on the other hand has the problem of rebranding the same GPUs for like three years other than the high-end/flagship Fury. The Polaris architecture should change all that.


As a side note, the mainstream/mid-range GPU market has hit a period of stagflation which sucks for anyone buying a card right now anyway. Basically GPU performance in the mid-range has been about the same for nearly 3 years now, and prices have just gone up. In the meantime all that's happened is Nvidia and AMD have been pushing development of stuff like GTX 980 and Fury for fanboys and hardcore gamers with lots of spare cash To the majority of their customers they're just flogging the same performance they've had for years. At least Nvidia has at least had some new tech in there and GPUs that can do stuff like HEVC and lower power consumption, but consider that performance otherwise is nothing to get excited about. A GTX 950 is basically the same speed as an HD 7870 was at like 3 years ago. And the 950 costs the same/more than you could buy a 7870 for back then! (The 7870 did start out pretty expensive but the price dropped quickly.)
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post #36 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 04:09 AM
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Yesterday I received The Martian BD/UHD combo back. I do have a LG W16NS40 BDXL burner, along with AnyDVD HD. I use this combo for backing up many of my own BD discs.

When I insert the UHD, I have no luck getting the W10 PC to recognize anything in the drive. It just cranks away on it, and nothing ever shows up in the file explorer. The BD behaves as expected.
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post #37 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 05:00 AM
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Yesterday I received The Martian BD/UHD combo back. I do have a LG W16NS40 BDXL burner, along with AnyDVD HD. I use this combo for backing up many of my own BD discs.

When I insert the UHD, I have no luck getting the W10 PC to recognize anything in the drive. It just cranks away on it, and nothing ever shows up in the file explorer. The BD behaves as expected.


After this (expected) terrible news, I will stick with Blu-rays for a few years more...
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post #38 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 05:43 AM
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One thing i don`t understand is how are users going to be able to backup their new UHD movies with the Digital Bridge "copy" function if the current drives are not able to read the discs? Will there be new firmwares released for the BDXL drives in order to read the UHD discs?
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post #39 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 06:34 AM
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One thing i don`t understand is how are users going to be able to backup their new UHD movies with the Digital Bridge "copy" function if the current drives are not able to read the discs? Will there be new firmwares released for the BDXL drives in order to read the UHD discs?
You don't need a PC to do that. In theory, a standalone Ultra HD Blu-Ray player would have this feature built-in. The "copy" would be stored either on the player's internal hard drive, or an SCSA-approved external hard drive, using Vidity-branded encryption. So, your options for full quality playback of the copy would be limited to the player or another Vidity-compatible playback device (e.g. another Ultra HD Blu-Ray player, TV, or future set top box) that has been authorized to play back content from that drive/account.

Playback on PC's, laptops, tablets, and phones would require use the "Export" function and apps designed specifically for playback of Vidity-encrypted content. You won't be playing these copies back using open source multimedia software like Kodi or Plex. The only way that happens is if someone cracks the encryption and distributes the software to do it. So, we'll have to wait and see what kind of UI and features these app developers give us. Most likely we'll get multiple options from studios and digital retailers like Vudu (Walmart), Flixster (Warner Brothers), CinemaNow (Best Buy), etc., though the Digital Bridge-compatible apps may go by different names than the current Ultraviolet-compatible ones do. Hopefully, at least one app will be released that is on par with K-scape's software, but at a more affordable price.

Afaik, this is all just on paper at the moment. Support for "Copy and Export" (a.k.a. Digital Bridge) is optional on both players and discs. The first generation player from Samsung (UBD-K8500) does not support it and there is no mention of support for the feature on the back covers of any of the Ultra HD Blu-Ray discs I have seen thus far. Industry rumors suggest that we might not see this feature for a couple years.
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post #40 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam S View Post
Yesterday I received The Martian BD/UHD combo back. I do have a LG W16NS40 BDXL burner, along with AnyDVD HD. I use this combo for backing up many of my own BD discs.

When I insert the UHD, I have no luck getting the W10 PC to recognize anything in the drive. It just cranks away on it, and nothing ever shows up in the file explorer. The BD behaves as expected.
This could be because AnyDVD has not been updated to crack / handle / read the new format.
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post #41 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 06:42 AM
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This could be because AnyDVD has not been updated to crack / handle / read the new format.
No doubt. But I think there might be some hardware (encryption, firmware) issues as well, similar to how SACD cannot be read in a standard DVD drive.
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post #42 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 06:52 AM
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No doubt. But I think there might be some hardware (encryption, firmware) issues as well, similar to how SACD cannot be read in a standard DVD drive.
I imagine that BD-XL drives are at least physically capable of reading the discs, even if it does take a firmware update. Although, knowing these greedy corporations, they will probably make us buy new drives instead.

I'm sure though that soon enough there will be a solution for PC playback / backups.
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post #43 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 07:04 AM
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The "copy" would be stored either on the player's internal hard drive, or an SCSA-approved external hard drive, using Vidity-branded encryption. So, your options for full quality playback of the copy would be limited to the player or another Vidity-compatible playback device (e.g. another Ultra HD Blu-Ray player, TV, or future set top box) that has been authorized to play back content from that drive/account.
Yes, that makes sense. I always assumed that the copy procedure would be done in a PC somehow but I can understand why they are trying to avoid this approach.

How long did it take Slysoft to crack the encryption for 1080p blu-rays? I wonder if they`re planning to work on something for UHD as well?
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post #44 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 07:25 AM
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How long did it take Slysoft to crack the encryption for 1080p blu-rays? I wonder if they`re planning to work on something for UHD as well?
I don't think it took them long to crack bluray, and I don't think it will take them long for UHD bluray either. If current BD-XL drives are capable without a firmware update then they will definitely be working on it as soon as they get their hands on some discs. If a firmware update is required, or even new drives, as soon as the hardware is ready they'll be working on it for sure.
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post #45 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 07:30 AM
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I combed through the technical information regarding the UHD-BD format and nothing says that the discs shouldn't be able to be read on BD-XL drives. The file system is the same, the physical disc specs are the same, and there are no "updates" separating UHD-BD from it's brothers other than the HEVC codec. I can only think that these discs are encrypted in some way or the media simply reports itself to the OS as something it doesn't recognize and therefore does not know how to deal with, but I can't find anything new regarding that in the whitepaper. I suspect we'll get some sort of updates in the next three weeks in regards to UHD-BD support and products as the licenses for the format take effect on March 1st.

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post #46 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 08:50 AM
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I don't think it took them long to crack bluray, and I don't think it will take them long for UHD bluray either. If current BD-XL drives are capable without a firmware update then they will definitely be working on it as soon as they get their hands on some discs. If a firmware update is required, or even new drives, as soon as the hardware is ready they'll be working on it for sure.
Unless I am mistaken, the reason they were able to crack AACS as quickly as they did is because they were able to reverse engineer it using BD-ROM drives and licensed Blu-Ray playback software. Basically that had an encrypted treasure map that contained the locations of both the lock and the key. With AACS 2.0, they currently only have half of that encrypted treasure map. So, I suspect that it could take considerably longer to crack, unless we start to see licensed Ultra Blu-Ray playback software for PC's soon.

There are probably other avenues that can be looked at, like attempting to crack standalone players with custom firmware and then porting that to PC. But, I think we are close to crossing the line regarding forum rules about discussion of piracy or copy-right infringement, so I am moving back to the original topic now.

Personally, I'll likely buy a standalone player some time in the next year or so (whenever I decide to bite the bullet and upgrade to a UHD display). If a means of playing back Ultra Blu-Rays on a PC or laptop comes about then I'll probably get a compatible external drive for my laptop/desktop too.
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post #47 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 09:17 AM
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Unless I am mistaken, the reason they were able to crack AACS as quickly as they did is because they were able to reverse engineer it using BD-ROM drives and licensed Blu-Ray playback software. Basically that had an encrypted treasure map that contained the locations of both the lock and the key. With AACS 2.0, they currently only have half of that encrypted treasure map. So, I suspect that it could take considerably longer to crack, unless we start to see licensed Ultra Blu-Ray playback software for PC's soon.
I think it quite likely that we will see PowerDVD et all licensed for UHD bluray soon enough. I have no reason not to think that. I find it almost a certainty that current BD-XL drives will be able to read the new UHD discs, after all, as others have pointed out, it's using the same filesystem etc, and these disc formats, along with DVD and CD before it, are not exclusively for video / audio playback. They are also backup / storage mediums. As you said though, the key will be Slysoft cracking the encyrption. However, I believe they'll get there.

Might as well stay positive

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post #48 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 11:07 AM
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I think it quite likely that we will see PowerDVD et all licensed for UHD bluray soon enough. I have no reason not to think that. I find it almost a certainty that current BD-XL drives will be able to read the new UHD discs, after all, as others have pointed out, it's using the same filesystem etc, and these disc formats, along with DVD and CD before it, are not exclusively for video / audio playback. They are also backup / storage mediums. As you said though, the key will be Slysoft cracking the encyrption. However, I believe they'll get there.

Might as well stay positive
Cyberlink have already confirmed they are working on UHD Bluray support, so the question is not if but when. I would say by the end of this year. Along with the software we'll get a list of compatible BDXL players (either new ones or existing ones which will get a f/w update). We'll also need an HDCP 2.2 / HDMI 2.0a compliant with HEVC 10bits h/w acceleration GPU&Drivers, and that won't come until AMD's Arctic Islands this summer. So my guesstimate is Q4 2016 for a licensed UHD Bluray solution on a PC.

http://tv.about.com/od/accesspries/f...BD-For-PCs.htm

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post #49 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 11:15 AM
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Yes, that makes sense. I always assumed that the copy procedure would be done in a PC somehow but I can understand why they are trying to avoid this approach.

How long did it take Slysoft to crack the encryption for 1080p blu-rays? I wonder if they`re planning to work on something for UHD as well?
I've checked their web site - so far, nothing.

BTW - I have a Pioneer BDR-2209 that supports BDXL, so I am interested in the results.
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post #50 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 04:07 PM
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This could be because AnyDVD has not been updated to crack / handle / read the new format.
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No doubt. But I think there might be some hardware (encryption, firmware) issues as well, similar to how SACD cannot be read in a standard DVD drive.
At this point I think it's a drive problem and that is that it doesn't have authentication for AACS 2.0, according to James over at SlySoft.

https://forum.slysoft.com/threads/an...2/#post-421954

There is a good chance that James knows what he's talking about since he is one of the developers over there.

As with regular Blu-ray's, even if you didn't have AnyDVD HD installed and running on your PC, if the drive was going to read it, you would be able to look at the files in Windows Explorer ( this requires no decryption) and you can't even do that.
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post #51 of 687 Old 02-11-2016, 05:08 PM
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One thing i don`t understand is how are users going to be able to backup their new UHD movies with the Digital Bridge "copy" function if the current drives are not able to read the discs? Will there be new firmwares released for the BDXL drives in order to read the UHD discs?
I do not recall that being promised for BDXL drives, instead the players were implied to be doing it. I am not even sure they promised more then a 1080p copy for DB.
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post #52 of 687 Old 02-12-2016, 04:50 AM
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Well, I got my hands on the copy protection info for the new format - none of which was mentioned in the format data that I and everyone else previously read - and it looks like that is why the discs can't be read in the BDXL drives. There are main three copy protection systems employed in the new format. First, we have Ultra HD AACS, which is just the latest version of AACS that we're all familiar with, and it goes online to verify keys and such. Second, we have Ultra-HD BD-ROM Mark, which is a unique mark that must be present in all manufactured discs and prevents counterfeiting/copying of movies. Third is Ultra HD BD+, which is obviously the updated version of BD+ that is used in HD Blu-Ray. Any drive intended to play Ultra HD BD-ROM Movies must support UHD AACS and UHD BD-ROM Mark, which no current drives have. Any drive intended to be used to read UHD media must support UHD BD-ROM Mark to recognize the discs and the BD-XL drives don't have that in their firmware at this point, but it could theoretically be added via firmware update. LG is the only company that has applied for a license to manufacture UHD drives, so we'll have to wait and see what happens. Since LG also made the majority of BD-XL drives, it stands to reason that they might put out firmware updates for them, but we'll have to just bide our time until we find out one way or another. If they won't, I'll be upset, cause I spent $100 or so on their snazzy external BD-XL burner with USB 3.0.
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post #53 of 687 Old 02-12-2016, 07:11 AM
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Well, I got my hands on the copy protection info for the new format - none of which was mentioned in the format data that I and everyone else previously read - and it looks like that is why the discs can't be read in the BDXL drives. There are main three copy protection systems employed in the new format. First, we have Ultra HD AACS, which is just the latest version of AACS that we're all familiar with, and it goes online to verify keys and such. Second, we have Ultra-HD BD-ROM Mark, which is a unique mark that must be present in all manufactured discs and prevents counterfeiting/copying of movies. Third is Ultra HD BD+, which is obviously the updated version of BD+ that is used in HD Blu-Ray. Any drive intended to play Ultra HD BD-ROM Movies must support UHD AACS and UHD BD-ROM Mark, which no current drives have. Any drive intended to be used to read UHD media must support UHD BD-ROM Mark to recognize the discs and the BD-XL drives don't have that in their firmware at this point, but it could theoretically be added via firmware update. LG is the only company that has applied for a license to manufacture UHD drives, so we'll have to wait and see what happens. Since LG also made the majority of BD-XL drives, it stands to reason that they might put out firmware updates for them, but we'll have to just bide our time until we find out one way or another. If they won't, I'll be upset, cause I spent $100 or so on their snazzy external BD-XL burner with USB 3.0.
I'm suprised you hadn't heard about AACS 2.0 or whatever the official name ended up being. It's been mentioned in most discussions on this topic around the web, ever since documents showing a rough draft of some of its "features" was leaked after the hacks against Sony. Btw, use of the online key retrieval feature is not mandatory for discs. Players must support the feature in case a disc requires it but, according to a few execs on the BDA council, the feature is not being implemented on any commercial discs released in the near future. They say it may be used with certain pre-release discs that are given to reviewers and the like. My guess is that it's there as a fall back option for studios in case hackers come up with a way to break the encryption using the key that's on the disc. Studios would then stop putting the key on new discs and require online authentication to play each new disc on each and every player you attempt to play it on. Once the disc has been authorized to play in a specific player, the disc could then be played again in that same player without having to go online again. So, it's a one-time deal per disc per player.

The UHD BD-ROM Mark you mentioned just sounds like an updated version of Cinavia.
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post #54 of 687 Old 02-12-2016, 07:23 AM
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I do not recall that being promised for BDXL drives, instead the players were implied to be doing it. I am not even sure they promised more then a 1080p copy for DB.
I don't recall seeing an official press release, marketing, or any other specs on the Digital Bridge/Copy and Export feature that actually said what the resolution would be. But, everything I have read from tech journalists and industry insiders suggests that the copy stored on the player's internal hard drive (or an SCSA-approved external hard drive) will be a full quality, bit-for-bit copy of the content on the disc. However, if you use the "Export" feature to save a copy to your tablet or phone for viewing outside of your home network, it will be reduced in quality to something more appropriate for a tablet. In other words, "Exported" copies will likely be the equivalent of current UV digital copies from Vudu.

Of course, things could change by the time the feature actually goes live.
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post #55 of 687 Old 02-12-2016, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
I don't recall seeing an official press release, marketing, or any other specs on the Digital Bridge/Copy and Export feature that actually said what the resolution would be. But, everything I have read from tech journalists and industry insiders suggests that the copy stored on the player's internal hard drive (or an SCSA-approved external hard drive) will be a full quality, bit-for-bit copy of the content on the disc. However, if you use the "Export" feature to save a copy to your tablet or phone for viewing outside of your home network, it will be reduced in quality to something more appropriate for a tablet. In other words, "Exported" copies will likely be the equivalent of current UV digital copies from Vudu.

Of course, things could change by the time the feature actually goes live.
Does the Samsung UHD player have an internal HD?
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post #56 of 687 Old 02-12-2016, 08:09 PM
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My interest is the burning of UHD BR using edited video from a Sony AX 100 4K camera.

I use Cyberlink Power Director 14 for editing and store the edited material on a HD or as a 264 or 265 file on a 25Gb BR disc.

My hope is to see PD 15 being capable of doing this, namely creating UHD BR discs, that are recognized by the Samsung or other UHD players. My hope is that this can be done using 25 GB discs, similar idea to AVCHD using 4.7 GB DVD blanks yet storing HD videos.

Any thoughts?

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post #57 of 687 Old 02-12-2016, 08:14 PM
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Does the Samsung UHD player have an internal HD?
No it does not.

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post #58 of 687 Old 02-13-2016, 06:20 AM
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No it does not.
That is what I thought, at least a terabyte HD would be needed and it would increase the price of course.
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post #59 of 687 Old 02-13-2016, 08:50 PM
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No doubt. But I think there might be some hardware (encryption, firmware) issues as well, similar to how SACD cannot be read in a standard DVD drive.
beside anydvd did you try makemkv?
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post #60 of 687 Old 02-13-2016, 08:52 PM
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beside anydvd did you try makemkv?
No because the drive does not even recognize the disc.
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