UHD Blu-ray Disc in BDXL Drive Test Request - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 614 Old 01-16-2016, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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UHD Blu-ray Disc in BDXL Drive Test Request

Is there anyone out there with UHD blu-ray disc in hand and a BDXL drive? I just want to know what happens when you insert it in the drive, will it be recognized or not? I know for a fact that BDXL drives can read up to 3 layers blu-ray discs.


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post #2 of 614 Old 01-17-2016, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Is there anyone out there with UHD blu-ray disc in hand and a BDXL drive? I just want to know what happens when you insert it in the drive, will it be recognized or not? I know for a fact that BDXL drives can read up to 3 layers blu-ray discs.


Please move to the right section if necessary
I don't think they go on sale until March 1, but I most certainly will test it.
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post #3 of 614 Old 01-17-2016, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Nathan, Please let us know.
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post #4 of 614 Old 01-19-2016, 01:13 PM
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Very interesting....it "should" work, unless the firmware in the drive can't read
whatever the UHD file system is.

I have a hunch it would be the standard BD UDF though.
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post #5 of 614 Old 01-19-2016, 04:01 PM
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I am also very eager to hear. It would be a shame to be locked out of ripping my new UHD discs. Putting the disc in seems so archaic. Not to mention waiting through all the warning, menus, etc, etc.
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post #6 of 614 Old 01-20-2016, 08:08 AM
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From what we know about the format, the initial discs will most likely be BD-50s because those require no retooling of production lines and they work in all existing BD-ROM drives, making players very easy and inexpensive to manufacture. The whole point of having triple and quad-layer discs was to allow UHD-3D in the future (and allow for epic films and episodic content like TV shows or mini-series to use a single disc), which will consume significantly more space and require higher bitrates than 2D UHD video. So, until we know for sure that we have a triple or quad-layer UHD-BD in our hands, there's really no point in getting antsy.
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post #7 of 614 Old 01-20-2016, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
From what we know about the format, the initial discs will most likely be BD-50s...
I hadn't heard that, but it makes sense as there's no reason to use BDXL unless the size of the movie and extras exceed the disc. The last few Blu-ray movies I have bought had the extras on a separate disc, leaving on the main feature on a disc to itself with room to spare.

I preordered The Martian on Amazon, so I'll find out on March 1...
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post #8 of 614 Old 01-20-2016, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
I hadn't heard that, but it makes sense as there's no reason to use BDXL unless the size of the movie and extras exceed the disc. The last few Blu-ray movies I have bought had the extras on a separate disc, leaving on the main feature on a disc to itself with room to spare.

I preordered The Martian on Amazon, so I'll find out on March 1...
You didn't hear about it because 99.9% of the write-ups/articles/whatever about the format don't really contain anything except re-worded bits from the official press releases and have no real technical information about what is new and improved beyond the use of HEVC and occasionally, you'll read a blurb about multi-layer discs. Unfortunately, the BDA has really been a black hole about the new format beyond what's in those simple summaries, so you'd have to get in contact with someone who is actually in the BDA on the technical side of things to really get answers. I think the format will stick with BD-50 for the first few years and then move up to triple-layer discs and then go quad-layer with UHD-3D and the inevitable 8K. A BD-50 with HEVC @ 86MBps will work nicely, be fool-proof to replicate and cheap too, and it will allow HD extras or UHD extras as the case may be.
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post #9 of 614 Old 01-20-2016, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
A BD-50 with HEVC @ 86MBps will work nicely, be fool-proof to replicate and cheap too, and it will allow HD extras or UHD extras as the case may be.
That's quite the bit rate.
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post #10 of 614 Old 01-21-2016, 04:06 AM
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AFAIK, the increased efficiency of HEVC counteracts the increased resolution of 4k and I understand that 10 bit can also achieve offsetting efficiencies, so a UHD movie will likely not be much different from a Bluray movie in terms of space requirement. Many Bluray movies currently don't even take up 40GB on a 50GB disc and some even fit in 25GB.

Compression is such a configurable thing though, that it will be possible to keep a movie within the 50GB limit by filtering detail judiciously so that the consumer probably won't be aware. Remember Avatar was supposed to occupy the whole disc for quality purposes and then they released Avatar Extended also on a single disc but claimed the quality was virtually indistinguishable?

There is more to a Bluray than just the data area on the disc and its encryption: official discs include tracks that can't be read by standard BDROM drives IIRC which allow the industry to verify that a disc is official and protected. I expect this is going to be used and enhanced with UHD and I don't anticipate it will be easily broken this time. I would not expect a BDXL drive to be able to act as a UHD Bluray reader as I believe the industry have learned from their mistake and will not allow UHD on an open platform.

IMO, physical disc formats are in the autumn of their life. Apart from cost, Sony have demonstrated that UHD files on a USB drive can be successfully played in a TV without all the headaches of HDMI or the redundancy of an additional external player: the challenge will be to develop cheap 64GB ROM flashdrives or equivalent that rival the cost of pressing discs (or close enough with other compensations). If more consumers had high bandwidth internet, streaming would be a possibility.

My best guess is that UHD will migrate to solid state storage for the videophile whilst the average consumer will be happy with reduced bitrate streamed 4k or lower using advanced compression or downloaded to solid state storage on the TV and optical discs will be gradually removed from the market. There doesn't seem to be much point in having external players when a TV already has an internal player (apart from legacy support).
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post #11 of 614 Old 01-21-2016, 01:48 PM
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I'm definitely interested in this test, as well as if any of our usual heavy hitting decryption apps (AnyDVD, DVDfab, etc...) will allow us to play them.

Last thing I need is a new blu-ray read/write combo drive to read the blasted discs.
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post #12 of 614 Old 01-22-2016, 09:35 AM
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I did some experiments with h.265 (one of my job titles is blu-ray disc compression/authoring)

a 90 minute 1080p movie at 85Mbps with dolby digital+ stream at the minimum setting comes out at 55 GB.
That's leaving out additional 4k resolution and anything that HDR and 10-bit color adds.

In my opinion, I don't believe any commercially made UHD discs will be pressed with existing HD Blu-Ray equipment.
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post #13 of 614 Old 01-22-2016, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexdigital View Post
I did some experiments with h.265 (one of my job titles is blu-ray disc compression/authoring)

a 90 minute 1080p movie at 85Mbps with dolby digital+ stream at the minimum setting comes out at 55 GB.
That's leaving out additional 4k resolution and anything that HDR and 10-bit color adds.

In my opinion, I don't believe any commercially made UHD discs will be pressed with existing HD Blu-Ray equipment.
I actually misquoted. The correct number should have been 82 and not 85 and that's "up-to", meaning not likely the actual bitrate used in many instances as it will be VBR encoding for most media and encoding efficiency will improve over time, resulting in lower bitrates as time goes by. Triple-layer discs will support up to 108 and quad-layer discs will go to 128.
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post #14 of 614 Old 01-30-2016, 11:08 PM
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Here's some more info over at SlySoft on the subject.

https://forum.slysoft.com/threads/an...olution.68042/

Post # 6 from James is the key, or so I believe it to be.
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post #15 of 614 Old 01-31-2016, 03:27 AM
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"Rurouni Kenshin: Kyoto Inferno" UHD-BD Edition is scheduled to be released after January.
Maybe it is the first UHD-BD release.
panasonic.jp/diga/campaign/ubz1/
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post #16 of 614 Old 01-31-2016, 07:13 AM
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Very interested to see the results of this. I would love to start buying 4K movies and be able to use those files off my HTPC in order to get the atmos track that is being left off many bluray releases. Will also save me from work when I get a 4K projector in the future.
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post #17 of 614 Old 01-31-2016, 05:38 PM
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Can the BDXL drives read 33GB layer discs? I thought the UHD BD layers were supposed to be 33GB instead for the current 25GB?

With my last BD rom purchase I specifically didn't get a BDXL drive because of the extra cost. If these UHD BDs can be read by a BDXL drive I guess I will end up needing to purchase one.

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post #18 of 614 Old 02-01-2016, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Can the BDXL drives read 33GB layer discs? I thought the UHD BD layers were supposed to be 33GB instead for the current 25GB?

With my last BD rom purchase I specifically didn't get a BDXL drive because of the extra cost. If these UHD BDs can be read by a BDXL drive I guess I will end up needing to purchase one.
BDXL drives can read BDXL discs, which includes 3 and 4 layer discs with up to 33GB per layer. LG makes an external USB 3.0/2.0 BDXL burner with 12x BD-ROM read speeds (432 Mbps data transfer rate), far exceeding the 128 Mbps maximum bitrate specified for Ultra HD Blu-Ray. Even at 4x read speed, the data transfer rate is sufficient at 144 Mbps. So, hardware-wise, most current BDXL drives are more than capable. The issue is lack of AACS 2.0 support. Without that, you won't be able to play the content.

It's possible that the BDA could choose to license Ultra HD Blu-Ray playback capabilities out to PC software developers like PowerDVD. If so, I suspect that all it would take is updated firmware/drivers for the BDXL drive to go along with the playback software. But, I would be surprised if we see that anytime soon.

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post #19 of 614 Old 02-02-2016, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Can the BDXL drives read 33GB layer discs? I thought the UHD BD layers were supposed to be 33GB instead for the current 25GB?

With my last BD rom purchase I specifically didn't get a BDXL drive because of the extra cost. If these UHD BDs can be read by a BDXL drive I guess I will end up needing to purchase one.
From what we know, BD-50's will be used for the first generation of UHD-BD titles, so there should be no need for new drives any time soon. If need be, non-BD-XL drives can be updated with firmware to enable triple-layer disc reading when discs come out, though the mileage will vary with that approach, depending on the age of the drive. Triple-layer discs require retooling and redirection of disc replication lines, most of which must be locked down for BD-50/BD-25 production for the foreseeable future and current intel says that new production lines are not ready. If you want to buy a new drive, BD-XL functionality is the norm for new Blu-Ray burners, so you're good to go with what's at the local Micro Center, which stocks LG drives.

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post #20 of 614 Old 02-02-2016, 12:32 PM
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I've got an older Asus BD-ROM drive and a newer LG BDXL burner, so I'll most definitely be testing both of them once I get a disc in my hand.
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post #21 of 614 Old 02-05-2016, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
From what we know, BD-50's will be used for the first generation of UHD-BD titles

Where did you get that information from?

And where did you hear the production lines are not ready?

Links please

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post #22 of 614 Old 02-05-2016, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexdigital View Post
Where did you get that information from?

And where did you hear the production lines are not ready?

Links please
CES discussions with people from the BDA, news articles from industry publications, and official UHD-BD spec documentation, which has BD-50 for the lowest tier of UHD-BD media. The reason for that is because BD-50 replication is pretty much perfected at this point and every disc replicator has all of their lines churning out BD-25/BD-50 discs, so all the players can fill UHD-BD replication orders from any customer, using their existing lines when the format rolls out, if there is demand for disc replication. Right now, most disc replicators have not been doing well, so they don't have the money or incentive to upgrade their disc replication lines to the newest - and significantly more expensive - disc replication equipment that was designed around UHD-BD for triple or quad-layer disc manufacturing. Given that obstacle, the makers of disc replication equipment are not selling the latest hardware in large numbers because many companies have folded or are not upgrading their equipment. Only four disc replicators - Sony DADC, Technicolor, Memory-Tech, and Arvato/Sonopress - have signed up for UHD-BD replication licenses and none of them have triple-layer disc production in large numbers yet, though all of them have the latest equipment. Sony claims to be able to manufacture triple-layer discs as part of their UHD-BD services, but hasn't put that on their menu yet. Memory-Tech is working towards being able to replicate a single triple-layer UHD-BD for every ten BD-50 UHD-BD discs that they can replicate on their UHD-BD lines, but they have apparently not reached that ratio yet. Arvato/Sonopress obtained their BDA okay for the triple-layer discs today, after beginning UHD-BD manufacturing of BD-50 discs back in December of last year and will begin to test triple-layer replication lines over the next several months, though they are mass-manufacturing UHD-BDs for the US studios and probably in conjunction with their oft-partner in replication, Sony. Technicolor just says they have gotten ready for UHD-BD and they expect to be shipping titles with the launch of UHD-BD, but do not openly offer any UHD-BD authoring or replication at this time. That's where things are at the moment.

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post #23 of 614 Old 02-05-2016, 09:00 PM
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Well that sucks!
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post #24 of 614 Old 02-05-2016, 09:19 PM
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Well that sucks!
Well, the UHD-BD replicators - those designed for triple/quad-layer discs - have only been available for a few months now, so it's not unexpected given that the spec was finalized only a few months before the new replicators were available. More to the point, UHD-BD licenses for content production and such just came out a few weeks ago and don't take effect until the day the format goes wide, so there's no big rush of replication orders for the format beyond what's already being done for the Hollywood studios. If the BDA went stupid and hadn't put BD-50 at the low-end of the format spec, UHD-BD wouldn't be out until 2017 at the earliest and things might be worse off due to the economics of disc replication driving many companies into receivership or takeover by the big fish. As it is, many smaller replicators just contract their BD jobs out to Sony DADC instead of doing it themselves.
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post #25 of 614 Old 02-05-2016, 09:39 PM
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One thing I forgot to clarify for the purposes of discussion was that BD-50 and BD-66 are both considered Dual-Layer discs, despite the difference in layer size for both formats and BD-66 is apparently the odd-man out for the time being. The triple-layer discs are BD-100 and quad-layer discs are BD-128, though there is no spec for BD-128 ROM discs at this time. So, triple-layer discs are actually as high as the UHD-BD-ROM format goes at this time. The 128GB discs are recordable/rewritable discs that might seem a bit familiar to you. Here's a little nugget buried in the official BDA white paper from last year: The liner density of a 66GB ROM disc and a 100GB ROM disc are the same as that of a 100GB BD-XL disc. Just something to think about.
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post #26 of 614 Old 02-08-2016, 11:02 AM
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That makes sense.(current low financial state of replicators)..I've been contacted by a few of the lesser known replicators if I have any
business for them coming up and it's usually a polite "no" from me..

Then they tell me about selling custom usb memory sticks...sad.
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post #27 of 614 Old 02-09-2016, 04:26 PM
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If we're just concerned with reading that data that's one thing, but there needs to be a software solution in place (i.e. PowerDVD) to actually view the movie, if that's the final intent. Not sure when and if they'll roll that out and I'm sure the PC requirements will be pretty robust (CPU/GPU).

Food for thought.

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post #28 of 614 Old 02-09-2016, 04:56 PM
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If we're just concerned with reading that data that's one thing, but there needs to be a software solution in place (i.e. PowerDVD) to actually view the movie, if that's the final intent. Not sure when and if they'll roll that out and I'm sure the PC requirements will be pretty robust (CPU/GPU).

Food for thought.
Not sure why. It's only 2D 4K. Built in GPUs have no problem with that.

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post #29 of 614 Old 02-09-2016, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy LaMont View Post
If we're just concerned with reading that data that's one thing, but there needs to be a software solution in place (i.e. PowerDVD) to actually view the movie, if that's the final intent. Not sure when and if they'll roll that out and I'm sure the PC requirements will be pretty robust (CPU/GPU).

Food for thought.
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Not sure why. It's only 2D 4K. Built in GPUs have no problem with that.
The CPU/GPU requirements for simple playback of 4K video aren't particularly demanding. Where it gets hairy is if you are applying significant video processing or transcoding to another format/resolution. Playing 4K video is very different from rendering highly detailed 4K graphics.
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post #30 of 614 Old 02-09-2016, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The CPU/GPU requirements for simple playback of 4K video aren't particularly demanding. Where it gets hairy is if you are applying significant video processing or transcoding to another format/resolution. Playing 4K video is very different from rendering highly detailed 4K graphics.
I'm just going by my PCs from four years ago with old Intel Graphics 2500. The PCs have no problem playing back the 2160P content and scaling it down 1440P. And the newer INtel on board graphics are even better and faster. And support up to three displays at up to 4096x2304@60Hz.

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