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post #451 of 4374 Old 11-24-2003, 12:40 AM
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Here's a VERY newbish set of questions .Sorry, I just don;t have time to read every post in this thread and "search" did not yield the answers I was looking for.

I am very much into tweaking my display. It is just a tube HDTV (Sony 36XBR800) but I love it anyhow. I do not use my HTPC for DVD playback do use it for playback of various MPEG-2, divx, and xvid movies a lot with a version of WMP. I have been playing around with ffdshow but I am not sure about the whole resizing and how that all will work. A good amount of the files I play are "widescreen". I tried playing around with the resize option in ffdshow a little bit and set it to 1280x960 and set my desktop to 1280x960i in powerstrip (I am using a transcoder from the infamous DIY transcoder thread). When I play a media file in WMP at this resolution I get basically the top half of the video and nothing more. I have player around with these settings a lot and even if I take resizing out of the picture, I get the same top hlaf of the video and nothing more. Is this an issue with interlaced resolutions and WMP, or maybe my card, or maybe so goof-up in general in my part?

P4 2.4Ghz, Radeon 9600, 1GB PC2700....

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post #452 of 4374 Old 11-24-2003, 03:20 PM
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anyone?

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post #453 of 4374 Old 11-24-2003, 09:26 PM
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Windows Media player has no aspect ratio control, therefore, not too many people in this forum actually use it. I don't doubt that media player is screwing something up after the resize, I just doubt there's much you can do about it.

Look into zoomplayer
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post #454 of 4374 Old 11-24-2003, 09:35 PM
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Anyone notice that combining low-levels of both denoise3d and gradualdenoise can really get rid of a tremendous amount of noise without hurting details?

Alone, neither is effective enough. If you raise the settings too high, you get motion artifacts wiith both denoise3d and gradual. However, because they are different techniques, it seems you can use a combination of both of them near the threshold for artifacts and end up with much more noise killing than you would have with either alone.

Try these settings for dvd material (this is what I'm currently using)

gradual denoise :20
denoise3d luma:0.65 chroma:0.65 time:3.40

With these settings, I cannot notice any motion artifacts or loss of detail (and this on a 65" screen), however it allows me to completely remove the misquito noise from my dvds.
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post #455 of 4374 Old 11-24-2003, 10:00 PM
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I though ZP would be my only option. Now if only it could be integrated into myHTPC well.....

Question: where do I get these extra features everyone is commenting on for ffdshow. I have read something about dscaler being used in ffdshow and now these noise filters. There is no mention of these specific items in the config. Are these add-ons? If so, where do I get them and how do I go about installing them? Is it just a matter of registering them? Thanks and sorry for the questiosn..it's jsut my nature.

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post #456 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 06:35 AM
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hynek, do you use unsharp mask instead of dScaler sharpen for some particular reason?

i7@ 3.6 - ATI 3870HD - Windows 7 64 bit - FFDShow with dScaler sharpen, AVISynth and Lancoz resize to BG808 with HD-144 lenses
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post #457 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by llamameat


Try these settings for dvd material (this is what I'm currently using)

gradual denoise :20
denoise3d luma:0.65 chroma:0.65 time:3.40

With these settings, I cannot notice any motion artifacts or loss of detail (and this on a 65" screen), however it allows me to completely remove the misquito noise from my dvds. [/b]

THE BEST settings I've seen yet. Thanks I'm rediscovering all my DVDs now.
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post #458 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 12:29 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by llamameat

Try these settings for dvd material (this is what I'm currently using)

gradual denoise :20
denoise3d luma:0.65 chroma:0.65 time:3.40

llamameat,

What other ffdshow settings are you using? Resize (which algorithm)? Unsharp mask?

Also, what CPU are you using?

I'm running a 2.5G P4 and if I turn on denoise3d I start stuttering like crazy. I resize to 1440x960 (lanczos) in addition to gradual denoise and I was wondering if I need an excuse for a CPU upgrage.
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post #459 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 01:32 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jvincent
llamameat,

What other ffdshow settings are you using? Resize (which algorithm)? Unsharp mask?

Also, what CPU are you using?

llamameat,
On top of that, if it is not too much trouble, can you please post your order of selected options and configuration in ffdShow?

Thx!!
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post #460 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 03:13 PM
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Ok, I have Blur and NR checked first (it's gonna kill your cpu otherwise). In there I have gradual and denoise3d set to the settings I specified before. I leave 'process whole image' unchecked here because there's no reason to denoise black bars (waste of cpu).

Next is resize. I resize to 1440x960 using lanczos (and output to my tv at 1440x960i) and with 'interlaced' checked (since it's for dvds). Keep 'process whole image' checked here, you don't want ffdshow to crop the black bars and resize only the used area because then scaling would be off.

You really want to use newest version of ffdshow found here http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/. In the older versions I could definitely tell that 'spline' was better than lanczos, but with the new version lanczos seems every bit as good (without using as much cpu).

For sharpening I set chroma and luma resize sharpening to 1.60. This may seem excessive, but on my tv I set it's native (i.e crappy) sharpening completely turned off. Also I disabled velocity scan modulation, so my set doesn't sharpen AT ALL.

However you'll generally want to resize to your displays native resolution. If you have a plasma that's only capable of 856x480 (or fill in blank) then that's what you should resize to. If you don't it's gonna scale it down to that size anyway, and it won't be using a method as good as lanczos. Also you'll wanna output at that resolution from your pc! Now as I said I use 1440x960i, which is not the native max resolution of my HDTV, but I use DVI and 1920x1080i didn't fit well at all and 1440x960 did and happens to be a perfect resolution for scaling dvds.

One more tip. I use resize sharpening, but this method is not as good if you are resizing to smaller dimensions, in this case you may want to stick with descaler's sharpening method with is also pretty darn good.

Anyway, this is what I use. Keep in mind I have a crazy fast CPU. It's a 3.2 with hyperthreading enabled. It's cool though, even with this all enabled my cpu usage is only 35-40% for dvds!
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post #461 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 03:45 PM
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Hmm, looks like my 2.5G is going to be the bottleneck since I'm doing the same stuff in the same order as you are, minus the denoise3d.

Looks like I should add a new CPU to the XMAS list.
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post #462 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 04:19 PM
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jvincent: Did you check the "HQ" box for denoise3d? Oddly enough, that seems to ease up the CPU. I'm getting smooth playback on a P4 2.4 without hyperthreading. I'd have to say it looks better than Dscaler Sharpness=60, Resize as below, and Blur/NR w/just Gradual denoise=40.

Settings:
Codecs are disabled except for Raw Video=all supported and only YUY2 is checked.
Blur/NR set to llamameat's settings
Resize is @ 960x540 (projector's native rez), Lanczos, Parameter=9.00, Luma and Chroma set to llamameat's settings

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post #463 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 04:25 PM
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I tried it with HQ both checked and unchecked.

I'm resizing to 1440x960 using lanczos, which is where most of my CPU is going.
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post #464 of 4374 Old 11-25-2003, 10:44 PM
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can somone possible point me to a faq that gives details on how to add these filters you guys are discussing and how all that works? Thanks a bunch!

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post #465 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 12:30 AM
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Hi,

I'm trying to use ffdshow with Dscaler filter (from Dscaler 4.1.7). But it has NO effect whatsoever. I'm using the latest 20031028 version.

Long long time ago (maybe over a year ago), ffdshow did work with Dscaler filters.

Anyone know what is the last ffdshow version that works with Dscaler filter? Thanks in advance.

regards,

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post #466 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 04:16 AM
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jvincent: Is 1440x960 the resolution you're outputting to your monitor/TV/projector, or is it just what you're resizing to in ffdshow? You may want to aim for your display's native rez.

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post #467 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 05:56 AM
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1440x960 is what I'm resizing to.

I have a CRT RPTV that I drive with 1920x1080i to bypass its internal scalers. I don't have enough CPU juice to resize all the way to that res.
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post #468 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 06:06 AM
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Hmm. See if resizing lower smooths it out. I'd try 1280x720 or even 960x540 (rough progressive equivalent of 1080i). Also, set the "Interlaced resolution" checkbox to grayed out.

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post #469 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 06:27 AM
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Thanks for the suggestions but I'm happy with my resizing right now after many moons of tweaking. I was just messing around to see if denoise3d added anything.

1440x960 is actually optimum for resizing. It's perfect 2x scaling in both X and Y for DVDs.

I use TT as my DVD player with an 1800x960 AR which means that my 1440x960 resized image is displayed in an 1800x960 pixel "window" within a 1920x1080 frame. Again, 1800x960 is also perfect scaling for DVDs so I don't get any aliasing artifacts when the 1440x960 image is mapped to 1800x960.

TT then sends the full 1920x1080 frame to the video card for final output.
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post #470 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 09:10 AM
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Thanks llamameat. I tried the Denoise settings you suggested but I find that denose3d set to Luma 4.00, Chroma 3.00 Time 4.00 without Gradual denoise works best for me.


My ffdshow settings are, in order:

Levels (Full Range ON, Input 16, 255 Output 0,255 Gamma 1.00)

Descaler Filter (Sharpen.dll 135)

Blur & NR (denoise3d. Luma 4.00, Chroma 3.00, Time 4.00, HQ)

Resize & Aspect (1440x1152 PAL) Sharpen (Spline, Luma 1.00, Croma 1.00)

Combined with VMR9 using 2x Anti-Aliasing and 2x Anisotropic Filtering gives me the most natural, smooth, realistic and noise free image I have so fare experienced.
The harsh digital look is almost completely gone.

This setup works great for DIVX and Xvid video as well.
I disable Descaler sharpen for poor quality Mpeg4 material.


Regards,

Owen

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post #471 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 09:10 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jvincent
Thanks for the suggestions but I'm happy with my resizing right now after many moons of tweaking. I was just messing around to see if denoise3d added anything.

1440x960 is actually optimum for resizing. It's perfect 2x scaling in both X and Y for DVDs.

I use TT as my DVD player with an 1800x960 AR which means that my 1440x960 resized image is displayed in an 1800x960 pixel "window" within a 1920x1080 frame. Again, 1800x960 is also perfect scaling for DVDs so I don't get any aliasing artifacts when the 1440x960 image is mapped to 1800x960.

TT then sends the full 1920x1080 frame to the video card for final output.

See - I just don't "get it". I don't understand the point of using Ffdshow to scale the DVD image to 1440x960, if your running at a 1920x1080i resolution. Your video card is still performing scaling and thus, throwing any possible benifit out the window.

Unless you can use Ffdshow to scale directly to the resolution you're running your display at (1920x1080i for example), I don't see how there is any increase in IQ - at least I didn't get any by doing it.
I too fall in your situation - I don't have enough CPU horsepower to scale directly to 1920x1080i. So I tried 1440x960 in Ffdshow, and allowing my video card to display it at 1920x1080i. As hard as I looked, I saw no improvement in IQ at all...

And, like you, I was using TT's AR editor to adjust the image a bit. Does anyone know what method TT uses to scale? Does it simply use the video card's overlay to scale?

So now, I simply use a nice 1920x1080i resolution (with accurate geometric proportions) so I don't have to use TT's AR editor (except for letterbox and 4x3 movies) - and I skip using Ffdshow as well. I'm only scaling once (with my video card) and I think the image looks fantastic.
Using Ffdshow + TT's AR editor + video card scaling seems like a total waste as though you'd be going through a few "generations" of quality IMHO.
Anyway...that's just my experience with this whole Ffdshow craze...


EDIT


One more thing -
You said that you use TT's AR editor to scale the DVD frame to 1800x960. Keep in mind that this isn't a 16x9 aspect ratio (it would have to be 1800x1013) - so you're probably introducing some geometric distortion in the process of re-scaling your image.

-Ryan Dinan
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post #472 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 09:25 AM
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Hey Ryan,

Good points. If all I was doing was scaling I would probably do the same thing as you are. However, I find that the default image is too soft so I use ffdshow for sharpening.

I've messed around with the various sharpening methods and I find that I like the resize one the best. For now at least.
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post #473 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 09:55 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Owen
My ffdshow settings are, in order:

Descaler Filter (Sharpen.dll 135)

Blur & NR (denoise3d. Luma 4.00, Chroma 3.00, Time 4.00)

Resize & Aspect (1440x1152 PAL) Sharpen (Spline, Luma 1.00, Croma 1.00)

Gulp... What kind of machine have you got to be able to do all these things? My machine is almost choking on the denoise3d/bluring alone.. Spline makes for 92% CPU usage..

My HTPC is:
Pentium 4 2,66 GHz, with 533MHz FSB.

Regards,
Tore K.
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post #474 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 10:11 AM
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Hi,

I'm IN! Thanks!

regards,

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post #475 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 10:47 AM
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Mercer,

In answer to your question.

Hardware:

P4 2.8C at 3.5Gig on 1Gig FSB.
Asus P4P800 Deluxe main board.
1 Gig Dual Channel Corsair PC4000 DDR at 250Mhz
Radeon 9600 Pro Overclocked (486Mhz Core, 742Mhz Memmory)

Software:
WinXP Pro SP1
WinDVD5 video decoder
AC3Filter 0.7b Audio decoder or WinDVD5 Audio decoder
Zoom Player 3.2 (Using VMR9)
Ffdshow Alpha 27 Sep 2003
Reclock 1.2
Omega Radeon drivers V2.4.96b


This machine runs without any stutter with the filters I am using, but is close to maxed.
It is used as a HTPC only. I don't play games.

Regards,

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post #476 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 11:14 AM
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Owen: How did you get VMR9 to work with the WinDVD video decoder? I thought it was still impossible.

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post #477 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 11:16 AM
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OK, I just installed ffdshow last night for use with TheaterTek and in a word, "WOW!" I've only tested it with Monsters Inc, but man, what a difference! I can actually SEE the textures of the various monsters' skin.

The texture of the headband on the octopus sushi chef at the "Harryhausen" restaurant now actually looks like a bandage-like cloth whereas without ffdshow, it was just white.

Now, if we could only somehow condense the 24-pages of this thread into a comprehensive "CLIFFS NOTES" version, that would be great.

I am loathing the thought of having to peruse all 24 pages of this thread for hints & tips for optimum DVD enhancement.
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post #478 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 11:23 AM
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JBlacklow,

Zoom Player will use whatever output renderer you choose.
It does not matter what video decoder is in use.

I had to spend quite some time fiddling with the VSinc slider in Reclock to get VMR9 to work without tearing.

Regards,

Owen

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post #479 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 03:14 PM
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hmmm...for those with difficulties outputing at full 1920x1080i (if that's your display's native resolution).....try resizing to 960x1080 or 1920x540, resizing for hardware then is really simple because it just needs to line double the verticle or horizontal (most resize methods will not screw that up). The problem is that resize sharpen might not look as good with less resolution to work with....maybe try descaler sharpen?

Just for fun I once tried for PERFECT dvd scaling by doing the following.....I outputted at 1920x1080i (native res of tv) but forced zoomplayer to only utilize 1800x960 lines of resolution (this works with some setups because DVI output is way overscanned anyway)....used ffdshow...resized to 1800x960 with sinc......

I modified my tv's service menu to get the resulting image to fit perfectly on my tv......and I have to say...perfect scaling is pretty cool....but i sacrified a little because it was too much hassle to output at that resolution
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post #480 of 4374 Old 11-26-2003, 03:54 PM
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I'm doing pretty much what llamameat describes in TT, as described a few posts up, with the AR editor in TT with the exception that I'm resizing to 1440x960 instead of 1800x960. This is still good scaling since everything is still nice multiples of the DVD native res.

Ryan,

As it turns out the combination of 1920x1080i resolution to the TV and 1800x960 TT window fits my TV nearly perfectly without introducing any geometric distortions because the difference in my X and Y overscan at 1920x1080i to the TV was almost exactly the inverse of the distortion caused by running at 1800x960.

Like many others here, I've probably spent way too much time in service mode on the TV getting this right.
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