Ffdshow FAQ - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 03:13 PM
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For some reason, I have started seeing major garbage in ZP. Little (and sometimes not so little) blue and red speckles appearing in darker parts of the picture, and in the black bars. Random noise.

I fiddled around with it for a while and arrived at some conclusions:
  • Higher res and refresh from the vid card make more of the junk to appear.
  • Turning off gradual denoise made it go away completely.
  • Turning gradual denoise back on made it come back

I have just recently added a KVM switch (to switch between HTPC and HD component from cable STB) into my mix. I never noticed it at all before this.

Have no idea why the denoise would play any role, particularly to introduce noise, where none was present before.

Gerald

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post #542 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 05:05 PM
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mad_arab,

The most important parameter for Denoise3d is TIME.
The default setting of 6.00 is just too high and causes smearing.
Setting time to 4.00 seems to be a good compromise and causes no visible problems for me.
The default settings for Luma (4.0) and Chroma (3.0) work well for me.
The above settings do soften the image slightly but I compensate for this by using a bit more Descaler sharpen.

I have experimented with a combination of Denoise3d and Gradual denoise as per llamameat's suggestion, but I just could not come up with a combination that improved on Denoise3d used alone before any resize.

I never liked Gradual denoise used before resize due to the visual artifacts it created. This is one of the reasons I started using resize in the first place. It allowed filters to be used on an up scaled image for a more subtle effect.
Denoise3d may work better after resize as well but even today's fastest PC's can't cope with that.

Anyway, I find that Denoise3d works very well before resize. And is the best noise filter I have ever used. Including the filters for Virtual Dub and AVISynth. And before anyone asks, I have not used Virtual Dub or AVISynth fiters in ffdshow.

Regards,

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post #543 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 05:18 PM
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denoise3d certainly has a much more powerful and efficient effect than gradual denoise. I have a dvd with quite a lot film grain, but it seems to look very artificial, too smooth even at time:3.80. Especially on people faces, it looks like they have unnatural smooth, weird skin. It may be just because of the very grainy source, I will try more discs later. Not using any other filters.
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post #544 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 05:32 PM
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mad_arab,

It does sound as if it your source DVD is the problem.

Try using Descaler sharpen as well to counteract the softer look.

Regards,


Owen
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post #545 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 05:47 PM
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Tried going even lower, 2.3 but it's still too smooth. I'm a little reluctant to adding another filter to counter this, as I fear detail will be lost. It's not like I need the film grain to disappear completely, like this filter does. I just want it to be so little that its not annoying or hardly noticable. I don't need a shiny, too smooth image where every surface has one color and no texture, which is very much a problem now. faces are the worst.

gradual denoise however, just seems to remove noise and not texture at the low levels i've tried it at (25, 32, 40). But I realise more can be done than what this filter is cabable of. Don't feel like using anything else on this particular dvd though. Will try a few others tomorrow, thanks for the advice.
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post #546 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 06:53 PM
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mad_arab,

I just retested on some different DVD's and I can see what you are talking about.
Try using low settings like Luma 1.0 Chroma 1.0 Time 4.0
The Descaler sharpen filter really can help.
Also try adding a little Gradual denoise as llamameat suggested. I find that more then about 20 (before resize) gives me motion artifacts.

In the end it all comes down to a compromise between noise reduction and detail lose. Nothing comes for free.

At least Denoise3d dose not have the motion artifact problems of Gradual denoise.

It would be nice if we could use any filter in any order so that Denoise3d could be used before resize and Gradual denoise after. That would give us the best of both. I have requested this feature be added to ffdshow, so we will just have to live in hope that Milan will grant this wish.

While testing I was reminded of how bad Radeon Overlay can look compared to VMR9. It can be painful to rip a DVD just so VMR9 can be used with WinDVD decoders. I am hoping the new NVDVD decoder will solve that problem and retain or better WinDVD quality.


Regards,

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post #547 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 08:26 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by DTSman-fr
What is the better sharpness algorithm?

- DMO Sharpness (from InterVideo)
- Resize&sharpen (from ffdshow)
- FLT_Sharpness (from Dscaler)
- ashap (from ffdshow)

Same question for Denoise algorithm?

Thank you

There is no BEST. It all comes down to what is best for you.

They work in different ways.

I use Resize sharpen and Descaler sharpen together in moderation.

DMO Sharpen and Descaler Sharpen are similar.

Asharp and the other sharpen filters under the Sharpen menu have there place but are generally harsh and considered by most to be less then best.

You will have to make your own choice.


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post #548 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 09:24 PM
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owen, what size tv, projector, monitor, do you use? I notice smearing with denoise3d at anything above luma 0.65 chroma 0.65 time 3.40 on my 65" sony, but people notice different things.

Anyway I agree that denoise3d alone is the preferred method for divx, xvid, and wmp9 encodes because gradualdenoise won't detect and remove the macroblock-noise (is that even a valid term?) that they create. But for dvds I'm sticking to my combination as the best method, I spent many a loser's hour tweaking the denoise to get it perfect.
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post #549 of 4374 Old 12-02-2003, 11:54 PM
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Hi,

Chroma (Y/C) delay solved in ffdshow!

The Dscaler Chroma filter (which has chroma delay adjustment in both H/V directions) don't work in ffdshow. But I seem to remember there is another Dscaler filter that also does Y/C delay. So in ffdshow, I click the browse and look under Dscaler directory again. Sure I found it. It's called LuminanceShift. Select the filter file to use as a Dscaler filter in ffdshow.

On my setup (WinDVD 4.5 decoder, ZoomPlayer 3.2 Pro, ffdshow 20031028), AVIA Y/C Delay pattern has a -0.07 chroma shift. Adjust the LuminanceShift filter to +15 completely solves the Y/C delay and gives a perfect Y/C pattern.

regards,

Li On

PS: maybe we should ask the ffdshow team to let us use multiple Dscaler filters...
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post #550 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 02:27 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Owen
There is no BEST. It all comes down to what is best for you.

They work in different ways.

I use Resize sharpen and Descaler sharpen together in moderation.

DMO Sharpen and Descaler Sharpen are similar.

Asharp and the other sharpen filters under the Sharpen menu have there place but are generally harsh and considered by most to be less then best.

You will have to make your own choice.


Regards,

Owen

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Thank Owen,

Indeed, i think DMO Sharpen is similar to Dscaler sharpen.

can you give me your settings in ffdshow in order to compare with mine? Thanks

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post #551 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 03:00 AM
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I am looking for help on getting ffdshow to work with my digital tv recorded mpeg2 files. I have been in this link for a while and my head is spinning a little. Ive played with ffdshow a bit and can get it to work with divx and mpeg4 etc, but it seems to have no impact on my mpeg2 files, which I watch in zoomplayer, I have the latest version of zp. My main goal is to be able to increase the gamma, I have a geforce 1 video card which has no hardware gamma control so my CRT projector looks quite dim. Any where anyone can point me for a tutorial or something would be great. I hate people who ask for too much help.... but I kinda need a step by step on this almost, it seems I may need to do something in zoomplayer and Im not sure what, I registered the ffdshow filter in the settings in zp but it didnt make any difference. I really appreciate anyone who takes some time on me
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post #552 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 04:28 AM
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Owen, those settings worked much better, thanks! I do suspect they're more demanding for the cpu, because it hangs after 2-3seconds and I have to jump to another place on the dvd, where it will hang after the same amount of time again. Or could something else cause this?
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post #553 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 06:33 AM
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I can not see DMO_Sharpen in Zoomplayer. How do I get access to it ?

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post #554 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 07:32 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Nima
I can not see DMO_Sharpen in Zoomplayer. How do I get access to it ?

Nima

You have to create a ".filterdata" file into dvdautograph directory.

i put this small file on my web site : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil...ess.filterdata

Then, DMO Sharpness appear in ZP :


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post #555 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 11:44 AM
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Merci

P.S. Is there a way to vary the sharpening level ?

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post #556 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 11:51 AM
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Owen: Since VMR9 support is broken for WinDVD, would you suggest, say, the Sonic filter in VMR9 over WinDVD in Overlay?

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post #557 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 12:09 PM
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I'm not Owen, but I would suggest WinDVD in Overlay (that is as long as you're on some kind of Radeon card, I don't even want to think about overlay on Matrox or Nvidia...), I have tested them A-B on my Barco Graphics 808 with two almost identical HTPCs (different Radeon cards, but that made an almost negligable impact) , and WinDVD in overlay was superior to Sonic (remember we're talking fractions of inches here, not miles) in both VMR9 and overlay.

i7@ 3.6 - ATI 3870HD - Windows 7 64 bit - FFDShow with dScaler sharpen, AVISynth and Lancoz resize to BG808 with HD-144 lenses
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post #558 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 12:39 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Nima
Merci

P.S. Is there a way to vary the sharpening level ?

Yes of course. Select DMO Sharpness filter in "filter properties"

You get this :


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post #559 of 4374 Old 12-03-2003, 04:19 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mad_arab
Owen, those settings worked much better, thanks! I do suspect they're more demanding for the cpu, because it hangs after 2-3seconds and I have to jump to another place on the dvd, where it will hang after the same amount of time again. Or could something else cause this?

Are you using the Abstract DMO filter (set to zero) with WinDVD decoders.
If you are not, that would explain your problem.


Regards,

Owen

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post #560 of 4374 Old 12-13-2003, 06:42 AM
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Up,

I try to watch the differences between those sharpness filter. it is not so easy.

Here, a PAL DVD with ffdhow :

Xsharpen : (20 ; 150)


Asharp : (1.57 ; 3.14 ; 0) and high quality block filtering


The same image with zoom :

Xsharpen : (20 ; 150)


Asharp : (1.57 ; 3.14 ; 0) and high quality block filtering



Then, other settings with the same image :

- Normal : all filters disable
- Dscaler Sharpness : 175
- Unsharp mask : 20
- Asharp : (1.47 ; 3 ; 0)
- DMO Sharpness : Intensity 65%
- Xshapen : (20 ; 150)


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post #561 of 4374 Old 12-13-2003, 10:18 AM
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On resizing:

From reading this thread and the ffdshow/resize thread I understand there are two main approaches:

1/ Resize to double DVD resolution, i.e. 1440x960 NTSC, 1440x1152 PAL
then let your video card resize from this to the native resolution you're
using for you pj or monitor.

2/ Resize in ffdshow directly to the native resolution you're using for your pj
or monitor.

I decided to try the second approach, although the restriction in ffdshow to values which are multiples of 16 doesn't allow me to exactly resize to my native resolution.

So I decided to change my native res using Powerstrip to a value as close as possible to 1400 x 1050 that ffdshow would also accept.

That value is 1392 x 1040.

I like the results and wondered if anyone else has tried this approach.

I'm just a little worried that I could be introducing some geometric distortion, since 1392x1040 isn't exactly 1.3333 (4:3). There is no detectable problem, such as overscan or underscan that I can make out.

Any comments will be very welcome.

Geoff
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post #562 of 4374 Old 12-15-2003, 03:06 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by geofstro
I'm just a little worried that I could be introducing some geometric distortion, since 1392x1040 isn't exactly 1.3333 (4:3). There is no detectable problem, such as overscan or underscan that I can make out.

Any comments will be very welcome.

Geoff

Try this one: 1408x1056. This gives you exactly 4:3, and a bit of overhead so that the graphics card can scale down instead of up.

I'm in the same boat as you though, have been trying different resolutions and so far I've ended up with 1280x720 w/Spline resizing, which is the largest resolution I can scale to with my current hardware.

Regards,
Tore K, Sony HS-20 w/HTPC+FFDShow
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post #563 of 4374 Old 12-15-2003, 07:14 AM
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Mercer,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try. I may run into a problem though, since this is a mite over the max res of my pj (JVC SX21) which is 1400 x 1050.

The other issue I'm still trying to determine is whether it makes sense to have a separate display resolution for 16/9. Ive tried 1392 x 784 and it does actually seem to make a difference. At least the desktop looks a little better focused than with either 1400 x 1050 or 1392 x 1040.

In fact I'm wondering, why stop there? I suppose theoretically its possible to set your desktop to resolutions that corresponded to difference widescreen aspect ratios, providing your adapter accepts it when set in powerstrip. The ffdshow resize could be used to resize to exactly that value.

I've not seen mention of anyone else trying this though, so I guess I'm really looking for validation of this approach.

Geoff
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post #564 of 4374 Old 12-15-2003, 05:14 PM
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It is my understanding that if you feed a non native resolution to a digital display, the display will rescale it to match its native resolution. I'm a CRT man so I don't have this problem.

To avoid using the displays internal scaler you should set Power Strip to your exact native display resolution. (1:1 Pixel mapping)

If ffdshow cannot scale to you exact display res. I would recommend scaling to double DVD res and let your display card rescale back down to your display/Power Strip resolution.

Aspect ratio can be controlled by your player (Zoom Player ?) withOUT changing resolution. There is no need to adjust ffdshow resize settings or display/Power Strip resolutions. These setting should be fixed.

Like I said, I am a CRT man so this is all theory to me. How well it works for you in practice, only you can tell.

In the end, it comes down to a comparison between the scaling quality of your projector verses your HTPC software and hardware.

Regards,

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post #565 of 4374 Old 12-16-2003, 12:48 AM
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Thanks Owen,

From what you and Mercer have advised it's clear that if any subsequent scaling has to take place, after ffdshow has done its resizing, it is better to scale down rather than up. This makes perfect sense to me as it's the same situation with still pictures in a program like Photoshop.

The max native resolution of my JVC SX21 being 1400x1050 means that if I want to squeeze as much detail out of DVD's as possible I will always have a trade off somewhere. When I use 1400x1050 via DVI the desktop looks a little softer to me than when I set it to 1392x1040, even though this means my pj is having to scale up slightly when set at 1:1 pixel mapping. I believe this is also benefitting the clarity of DVD's, although it's a purely subjective judgment.

For 16/9 material I find that setting a resolution of 1392x784 looks even sharper on the desktop and (i think) on film.

I don't understand why this should be and can't help wondering if limiting the SX21 to only having to project colour and detail within a 16/9 window isn't somehow producing this extra clarity I'm perceiving.

Of course, the SX21 is still having to project something to fill out the remainder of its native display; but that is just black bars.

Theoretically when the aspect ratio is set in my DVD player (yes it is Zoom Player) the effect should be the same, so perhaps it's just my imagination. In other words, because the desktop looks sharper, I believe DVD's look sharper as well.

Anyway it seems to work well for me and since achieving natural sharpness is what this is all about, I'm going to stick with it.

BTW Owen, just for the record, I'm one of those who very much appreciate the work you've carried out in this area.

Geoff
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post #566 of 4374 Old 12-16-2003, 02:52 PM
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Ok, couple of questions on ffdshow filters....

1) What exactly does the 'Levels' filter do? What is it actually adjusting on the Input and Output 0-255?

2) DVD content (film(ie. movies) and video(ie. concert)) are all in progressive already, correct? So I do not need to use 'Deinterlace' filter in ffdshow, right? I use WinDVD as the vid decoder, and in ZP it is set to Force Bob or Force Weave, depending on which one looks better on a particular content. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I only need to use 'Deinterlace' if the content was recorded from a interlaced source, ie. TV shows, VHS, etc. And which methods are preferred with better PQ?

3) What exactly is Y/C Delay? I have the Avia disc, but I don't know what I'm looking for on that image. =P

Thanks guys!!
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post #567 of 4374 Old 12-16-2003, 04:56 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by N3W81E
Ok, couple of questions on ffdshow filters....

1) What exactly does the 'Levels' filter do? What is it actually adjusting on the Input and Output 0-255?

2) DVD content (film(ie. movies) and video(ie. concert)) are all in progressive already, correct? So I do not need to use 'Deinterlace' filter in ffdshow, right? I use WinDVD as the vid decoder, and in ZP it is set to Force Bob or Force Weave, depending on which one looks better on a particular content. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I only need to use 'Deinterlace' if the content was recorded from a interlaced source, ie. TV shows, VHS, etc. And which methods are preferred with better PQ?

3) What exactly is Y/C Delay? I have the Avia disc, but I don't know what I'm looking for on that image. =P

Thanks guys!!

1. Not sure. It probably limits the dymanic range of the output.

2. DVDs are actually encoded as interlaced. Your MPEG decoder will deinterlace for you. I'm not sure if running the ffdshow deinterlacer after the fact will do anything. ffdshow is a generic Directshow tools so other input types will need deinterlacing.

3. The Y (Luma or B/W intensity) and C (Chroma or colour) information travel seperate paths in your TV/DVD player/ etc. If the paths are not perfectly matched then the signal on the TV won't line up perfectly and you'll lose some detail.

The Y/C image in AVIA lets you check the delay. If you are perfect, then the left edge of the three coloured bars (R,G,B) will line up with the left edge of the gray bar below them that is marked 0.0. If they are off, then a different one will match. The units are in microseconds and 0.07 happens to correspond to 1 pixel time so if it's off you can use ffdshow to delay or advance Y by the corresponding amount.
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post #568 of 4374 Old 12-16-2003, 05:31 PM
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1. the level filter limited/compress/expand the input/output luma/chroma range, its the same thing photoshop can do with histogram settings to correct images from bad sources.

Tip: u got a very bright or bad looking movie with mainly black areas wich actualy arnt deep black if u compare them to ya black aspect bolders? Thats mainly cause of a bad video source and a compressed level input.

Go to the level page and enable it also enable "histogram" + "full range" now look at the left side of the graph while playing, if the graph is not using the full range in dark black scenes (there should be some graph info near 0-10 position) than the colors are shifted and not correct balanced. Now simple move the left upper slider to the point where the graph normaly ends in scenes wich should contain pure black areas, u might need take 2-3 more sample positions of the movie to dont push the slider to far right. Dont bother about the right slider since it limits the white end of the colors, wich dont make sucha big diff at all. Normaly setting the left upper slider to 6-16 works best, bud hardly depends on the input source and how much the graph is shifted to the right side.

I dont care much about the lower sliders but u can set them the same way to compress the colors range. Just experiment a bit with them. For normal dvd playback there should be no use never saw a bad level encoded dvd But for avi/xvid rips or cam rips of movies u can often see the right color shifting wich results in a bright bad looking movie but can be corrected with level easy

Example:
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post #569 of 4374 Old 12-16-2003, 05:43 PM
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For normal dvd playback there should be no use never saw a bad level encoded dvd

I sure have, one example that comes to mind is "Demetrius and the Gladiators", black level and gamma are both too low. It is just amazing how much detail there is actually in the dark scenes.

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post #570 of 4374 Old 12-16-2003, 06:38 PM
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Changing the subject slightly, I noticed a few people mentioning the problem with playing back dvds' using vmr9 with zp/windvd/ffdshow. I've got mine working by using DVD Region-Free and setting it to remove macrovision - works a treat.

Thanks to this thread I've managed to get zp/ffdshow/windvd working OK apart from when I play NTSC dvds' (I mostly have PAL). I just cannot get rid of a wide green bar along the bottom of my screen.

Any suggestions?
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